FP+Palace placement - Page 3

vmxa1 · October 16, 2002, 17:54

Ducki, you are doing fine. I would ask you why you are researching ED? Has the AI got it alread? I would not do it, if the GL is still working, it kills it, if you are ahead in techs, you may still gets some that you skip for free. If if it has been made obsolete, I would still skip ED in favor of Chiv or the GunPowder path. You have way too much money piled up, so I would be for spending more on reseach here. All that money will get you is higher demands in trades. Get to Invention, gives you Leo's, which I like to have if I can. Yes it is not the best one, but I save a lot of money and when you play at the higher levels money is hard to come by, but then so are wonders. At Chief you can beat the AI to nearly all of them. I would just get in the habit of researching in the path that is getting to what you need and bypassing some techs that can wait and be gotten by trade or war or even the GL. I like the fact that you did not make a ton of swordsmen, but used horse or spear/pikes instead as they can be upgraded and you can afford it. The only other point is you need more workers, 7 is way to few at this point.

ducki · October 16, 2002, 18:15

Theseus: I get it. Thanks.

vmxa1: Researching Education to ensure I am first to JSBach's. I'm in such a commanding lead, I've gifted nearly every Civ except America with at least 2 techs hoping to catch them up so my Library would do some good, other than Culture. It actually DID do me a little good, but not nearly what it does when I'm behind.

I was originally rushing Theology so I could build Sistine, and with my GA and some fair amount of tweaking on tile improvements and all my extra cash, I just got so far ahead it was silly.

Now that I've found Japan, though, and sold contact to everyone AND given Japan a LOT of gifts(I want them gracious for now, since they are larger than I am, geographically), hopefully the AIs will start working together and give me a run for my money, or start fighting each other, giving me an easy land-grab opportunity.

In fact, having the GLib is exactly why I went for Education(to get to Bach's) - in my admittedly brief experience, the AI will usually get Engineering and ...uh... The other one that has Sun Tzu's as a wonder, and assuming they traded for it, I was hoping to get those two or 3 for free before I hit Education.

Apparently the AIs are just not in good positions.

I actually almost didn't play this one out after founding my second city - having the Greeks, Romans AND Aztecs all within about 2 cities of my capital seemed a bit too close and I was gonna restart.

The reason I stuck with it was that I really wanted to try to get to Modern Age AND I could SEE 3 luxuries within 1 city of my capital, which was promising.

Once I finally make it to Modern, I really must graduate to Warlord. Poor AI hasn't a chance. I sure hate missing those Early wonders, though.

ducki · October 16, 2002, 18:18

Also, I need new wonders and improvements to build. As it is, I keep having to switch cities to Wealth production to avoid having too many military units to support.

I must have just gotten really really lucky with placement and terrain generator, as this is the strongest game I've had yet. Maybe it's helped that I didn't go to war and keep giving RoPs to one or two nations.

sabrewolf · October 16, 2002, 18:22

hey ducky, how did you get that colony over the channel? you didn't take the direct way - and going past that other island (japan?) took you quite often through treachourus waters... hot did you survive that journey?

you seem to be lucky

however, i think your choice of FP at later palace is quite good... on the other hand, giza will be a very productive city (grassland and many hills... just perfect!) infortunatly no iron works.

sabrewolf · October 16, 2002, 18:31

Quote:

Originally posted by ducki
Also, I need new wonders and improvements to build. As it is, I keep having to switch cities to Wealth production to avoid having too many military units to support.

don't use wealth... at least not before you get economics. it's just a great waste.

build up offense and attack one by one. maybe start with romans, then the green ones (aztecs?). or prepare a war against japan.
if you don't want to fight, you could build settlers, workers and defense for that new pretty island

Quote:

I must have just gotten really really lucky with placement and terrain generator, as this is the strongest game I've had yet. Maybe it's helped that I didn't go to war and keep giving RoPs to one or two nations.

yeah, the terrain really is great...

or maybe you're just ready for the next level

vmxa1 · October 16, 2002, 19:50

I don't think it was luck. I looked at the cities a bit and of all the games I have downloaded, this is the best job of city tile improvement I had seen so far. That makes you productive. Go on to Warlord and have at them.

ducki · October 16, 2002, 20:53

I got to that island because I scoured the coast of my own continent looking for likely "other" continents and by the time the Great Lighthouse was done, I knew where Japan would be, and just found the Colony while coming home through unexplored territory.

Quote:

Originally posted by sabrewolf

don't use wealth... at least not before you get economics. it's just a great waste.

build up offense and attack one by one. maybe start with romans, then the green ones (aztecs?). or prepare a war against japan.
if you don't want to fight, you could build settlers, workers and defense for that new pretty island

I've already got one town built and another settler/pikeman on the way.

IIRC I've already got a worker there and can crank out another before I'd be able to get any from the home continent there anyway.

I was hoping for a relatively peaceful game, which it has been so far, and as soon as I'm well set up on that island, you can bet I'll be gunning for Washington and Seattle, to get extra Iron and Build a new Palace.

I'm seeing a big showdown with Japan, assuming he can keep up...

Quote:

yeah, the terrain really is great...

or maybe you're just ready for the next level

ducki · October 16, 2002, 20:56

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
I don't think it was luck. I looked at the cities a bit and of all the games I have downloaded, this is the best job of city tile improvement I had seen so far. That makes you productive. Go on to Warlord and have at them.

From an avid strat poster/discusser such as yourself, that means a lot, thanks!

Of course, I owe a lot of knowing what to do and where to all the posters here - you, Theseus, Velociryx, Arrian, and many others, including whoever originated the "Why you do NOT want to mine shielded grasslands" thread.

Thanks all, now I'm off to try finishing this one, then graduate to Warlord.

Theseus · October 17, 2002, 00:44

I haven't looked at the save, but having vxma1 compliment your tile improvement is just short of Carver turning it into a lesson...

Other than early warfare (of which I'm a proponent, big surprise), I think that early land management is the most important skill to learn... you've got that, you're ready for the next level. More than you think, btw, ducki... just based on vxma1's comment, I wouldn't be surprised if you are ready for Monarch.

ducki · October 17, 2002, 00:46

Hey guys, I'm back!
I still haven't moved my palace, but I did take Washington and Seattle and had one or two more American cities culture flip, as well as the Roman city of Veii, next to Rome, the one that had the horses I wanted.

Anyway, I know Theseus said to move the Palace to Seattle, but it just seems like I'd get more benefit from Washington, with more _other_ cities being affected.

If that's just silly newbie talk, let me know or help me understand further the case for Seattle.

As I see it, in my limited experience, Seattle, being coastal, will affect fewer cities with its Corruption reduction than Washington - at least until I beat up on Greece, and even then, since I don't know what the "sphere of influence" is, I really can't tell.

Here's a better map than before, up to date, and after that I'll post a sav for anyone that has time to spare for critiques and suggestions.

Hopefully this isn't a threadjack, as I'm still trying to figure out FP+Palace placement.

TIA

ducki · October 17, 2002, 00:51

And here's the SAV.

Oh, btw...

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
just based on vxma1's comment, I wouldn't be surprised if you are ready for Monarch.

One step at a time, guys, one step at a time.

I'm not much for warmongering yet, I'm still enjoying the building.

Plus, every time I declare war, except for this war with America and using Rome as an ally, I end up really screwing something up, like a RoP or a Trade deal or I make peace too soon and end up upsetting my ally forever.

I've got a couple of saves where noone will trade with me. Noone. That blows. So, once I'm done with this one and have a handle on both Industrial Ages and FP+Palace placement, I'll try graduating.

Thanks for all the great ideas and feedback!

vmxa1 · October 17, 2002, 02:28

You can start your own thread and not sweat it. I may be out on my own here, but I almost never make RoP's, so they don't get broken. I may let the AI pass through my lands if it is useful to me or I am too weak to stop them at the time. I am not much for trades either. Only at the Emp/Deity do I strive to make any per turn deals. It is mostly cash and carry. I will make MPP's. I only decalre wars when I intend to put the civ out of the game, I let them declare all the rest of the wars. Of course I play with no respawn. Once your dead, your are done.

bbaws · October 25, 2002, 02:48

Posted in here a while ago and then decided to have a game on a pangea huge map to see how low I can keep the corruption. Moved the palace twice using GLs built the FP in the centre of my original territory. It's the modern age now, I control a bit more than half the world. Being a pangea not much of my empire is that close to either the capital's current position or my FP. I don't have a single unproductive city. The luxury slider has been pretty high at times but the main thing is to get as many luxuries as possible by hook or by crook. The two capital moves were to distant reasonably large islands, once I've built up all available infrastructure in 10-12 cities around the new capital I'm looking for possible new sites to burn a GL. Only had three so far so it hasn't moved as often as I would have liked.

ps planting and chopping forests all over the place to get a start on the courthouses does no harm

realpolitic · October 29, 2002, 17:38

I build my FP ASAP usually at the edge of my conquests (subject to the consideration that the FP is immoble). This helps me with corruption busting immediately, and it will speed the building of courthouses and marketplaces (although WLTKD only decreases waste.) Even on a huge map at emporer level I should be able to get down to 4 turns, with the help of techwhoring and mapwhoring, then my goal is to stay at 4 turns without selling my techs

Artifex · February 19, 2003, 04:25

tag and bump for a good thread. I was just thinking tonight how to do the FP placement. I had taken 6 months off from civ 3 and had gotten very rusty.

joncnunn · February 19, 2003, 15:03

Look like this thread has been resurected.

The P-FP problem of maxing out net shields & commerce is in the NP set of solutions. (Exact solution exists, but the time is non-polynomial, takes a long time and is tedious to calculate for more than a few enteries.) It is still in this NP class after the FP is built when debating on if to move the Palace and if static analyis is taken.

A heuristic approach should be taken. These are in order for easiest to determine to hardest to determine; from least accurate to most accruate.

The simpliest approximation is if the FP isn't built yet, then find the city inside your empire that's furthest away from the Palace and build it there. That is guartined to minimize overlap. The only thing tricky about this is that you may need to consider that in Civ III, the world is a Cyclinder, and so comparing distances both clockwise and counter clockwise may be needed if your empire is like Russia. (If the FP has been built then, you would find the city furthest away from the FP as a candidate to move the Palace.)

Second approximation would take the distance portion into account, by ensuring there is at least half a ring around each location.

Third approximation would simply rule out cities that the FP can't be built in a reasonable timeframe due to being shield poor and/or not having a river or lake for fresh water access.

Fourth approximation would by simply looking at the map extra weight for productive areas, less weight for low productive areas. and if a city has both Iron & Coal in it's CR, major weight to that area, and try to ensure that it's the least important areas (Islands off the coast) that suffer from the most corruption.

A fifth approximation would look at the state of development in each city, and give more weight to the developed portions of the empire, and less weight to the undeveloped portions of the empire.