View Poll Results: Should air units be able to Kamikaze?
Yes! KAMIKAZEEEEEEEEE... BOOM! 13 39.39%
No! Keep those planes in the sky! 8 24.24%
Yeah... but I won't go over board with it. 9 27.27%
It would make no difference what so ever. 3 9.09%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old August 19, 2002, 04:29   #1
Frozzy
PtWDG2 SunshineNationStatesCall To Power SuperLeague
Emperor
 
Frozzy's Avatar
 
Local Time: 18:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Mad.
Posts: 4,142
Kamikaze!
Hey all. I just thought I would post a poll here, saying whether a new Civ game should have an action for air planes, where you can "Kamikaze" into an enemy unit/city. This would be good if your plane couldn't make it back to an airbase before they're feul ran out.
Frozzy is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 06:44   #2
J Bytheway
Call to Power PBEMCall to Power II Democracy GameCTP2 Source Code Project
Emperor
 
J Bytheway's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: England
Posts: 3,826
I don't know whether it would be a good idea for all planes to be able to, but I once made a Civ2 scenario with Kamikaze bombers in, and the AI built hundreds of them! One city with two AEGIS cruisers and a SAM battery (that's x8 defense, IIRC) fended off about 40 bomber attacks in one turn (without losing any units, but both cruisers were half dead). I've never seen the AI do anything in such excess...
J Bytheway is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 07:58   #3
Solver
lifer
Civilization IV CreatorsAge of Nations TeamApolytoners Hall of FamePolyCast TeamBtS Tri-LeagueThe Courts of Candle'BreC4WDG Team Apolyton
Deity
 
Solver's Avatar
 
Local Time: 09:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Latvia, Riga
Posts: 18,355
Generally threads with such general ideas over civ games would be belonging here...
__________________
Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man
Solver is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 08:14   #4
fittstim
Warlord
 
fittstim's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 265
Kamikaze doesn't make sense. Soldiers don't willingly kill themselves. It takes strategy out of the game.

But since this whole issue isn't relevant to CivIII where bombers never run out of fuel (unlike CivI and CivII), I'm wondering what the point is???

P.S. Sorry if that sounds nasty. I'm just wondering if you meant this in a civII or civIII context?
fittstim is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 08:24   #5
zulu9812
King
 
zulu9812's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: of Scotland
Posts: 1,383
You got Kamikaze pilots in WWII - that's where the term comes from: the Japanese suicide pilots.

redbull, just give planes the Cruise Missile ability and you have your kamikaze
__________________
Up the Irons!
Rogue CivIII FAQ!
Odysseus and the March of Time
I think holding hands can be more erotic than 'slamming it in the ass' - Pekka, thinking that he's messed up
zulu9812 is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 08:54   #6
NeoStar
Warlord
 
NeoStar's Avatar
 
Local Time: 16:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sydney
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally posted by fittstim
Kamikaze doesn't make sense. Soldiers don't willingly kill themselves. It takes strategy out of the game.
There must be limitation to the idea. I would see it being confined to one gov (fundamentalism - but its not there) OR mass suicides aggravating war weariness greatly.
__________________
"Show me a man or a woman alone and I'll show you a saint. Give me two and they'll fall in love. Give me three and they'll invent the charming thing we call 'society'. Give me four and they'll build a pyramid. Give me five and they'll make one an outcast. Give me six and they'll reinvent prejudice. Give me seven and in seven years they'll reinvent warfare. Man may have been made in the image of God, but human society was made in the image of His opposite number, and is always trying to get back home." - Glen Bateman, The Stand (Stephen King)
NeoStar is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 09:05   #7
fittstim
Warlord
 
fittstim's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally posted by zulu9812
You got Kamikaze pilots in WWII - that's where the term comes from: the Japanese suicide pilots.
Really!?!?! I didn't know that

The point isn't whether a few loyal/warped pilots volunteered/were welded into the cockpit of a plane that was then loaded with explosives. The point is that the Kamikaze is not a "unit" any more than a "suicide bomber" or the opium-hazed Assassins of the Crusades era would be. They are blips on the screen. A sorry few compared to the real units of the armed forces.

Imagine having a waring strategy that was based on killing your own soldiers. What person would support such a thing? The cities would immediately rise up and rebel - switch to a more decent society.

If you want to make the point, then you should make a kamikaze unit appear randomly and rarely - much like a leader. Then you could have your wacko-kamikaze units but wouldn't be able to have a war strategy based on amassing dozens of units.
fittstim is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 09:22   #8
The Pioneer
Prince
 
The Pioneer's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 720
I don't see how this concept can fit into Civ 3. For a later civ game I would much prefer that Firaxis would work on the Air and Naval concept a bit more so that we can enjoy them before we go to such units like a Kamikaze, although it's an interesting idea.

Maybe if somebody would do a WWII scenario in the Pacific theater, he could then implement it!

So long...
__________________
Excellence can be attained if you Care more than other think is wise, Risk more than others think is safe, Dream more than others think is practical and Expect more than others think is possible.
Ask a Question and you're a fool for 3 minutes; don't ask a question and you're a fool for the rest of your life! Chinese Proverb
Someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Warren Buffet
The Pioneer is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 09:37   #9
vondrack
lifer
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamCivilization III PBEMCivilization IV PBEMPtWDG Legoland
Emperor
 
vondrack's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Praha, Czech Republic
Posts: 5,581
Quote:
Originally posted by fittstim
Really!?!?! I didn't know that

The point isn't whether a few loyal/warped pilots volunteered/were welded into the cockpit of a plane that was then loaded with explosives. The point is that the Kamikaze is not a "unit" any more than a "suicide bomber" or the opium-hazed Assassins of the Crusades era would be. They are blips on the screen. A sorry few compared to the real units of the armed forces.

Imagine having a waring strategy that was based on killing your own soldiers. What person would support such a thing? The cities would immediately rise up and rebel - switch to a more decent society.

If you want to make the point, then you should make a kamikaze unit appear randomly and rarely - much like a leader. Then you could have your wacko-kamikaze units but wouldn't be able to have a war strategy based on amassing dozens of units.
fittstim,

the Japanese used kamikaze pilots en mass throughout the late WW2, when desperately trying to stop the US from reaching the Japanese homeland. It was not just a few of them, they were ending their lives in hundreds. Also, the Japanese cities did not appear to rise up and rebel because of that, if you mention it. Actually, becoming a kamikaze was highly esteemed in the Japanese society. It had to do much with the cultural background of the nation.

Saying "what person would..." etc. is much like saying "what person would support suicidal Palestinian bomb-attackers?". However unbelievable and unsupportable this seems to Western people, these things happen and are apparently quite ok with other nations, which have different cultural background.

Said that, I would still not support a kamikaze unit to be included, mostly because even though they were used in big numbers, they were not very effective and meant very little as far as the military importance was concerned.

BTW... although the principle of kamikaze was tied mostly to planes/pilots, it was used, to an extent, with ships, too... The Japanese battleship Yamato (one of the grandest battleships ever built) joined by several smaller vessels ended her life in a futile attempt to suicidally intercept the US fleet. Had fuel enough to make it to the place of encounter only, but not back. Sunk by American naval bombers before having a slightest chance to fire a single shot...
vondrack is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 10:09   #10
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
It makes no difference. Airplanes and anything else that uses bombardment are still horrible. Not worth the time to build.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 10:12   #11
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by fittstim
But since this whole issue isn't relevant to CivIII where bombers never run out of fuel (unlike CivI and CivII), I'm wondering what the point is???
Those were the days.

I'm leaning towards having Firaxis go back to that system if they won't increase the range beyond 8 in the editor.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 13:00   #12
HazieDaVampire
King
 
HazieDaVampire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The British Empire
Posts: 1,105
The Nazi's had suicide soldiers, people who'd lost the whole of their family in the eastern front or through bombing raids could join a unit who would do missions that success would only come if the soldiers didn't care if they lived or died!
HazieDaVampire is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 13:21   #13
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by HazieDaVampire
The Nazi's had suicide soldiers

How about replace the Samuri with the BONZI! unit.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 14:10   #14
Hagbart
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton Team
Prince
 
Hagbart's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 835
I voted no, i'm tired of WW2!
__________________
Try my Lord of the Rings MAP out: Lands of Middle Earth v2 NEWS: Now It's a flat map, optimized for Conquests

The new iPod nano: nano
Hagbart is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 14:12   #15
Hagbart
InterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton Team
Prince
 
Hagbart's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 835
BTW to Thrawn: No probs with huge maps? I have a p3-550 too and I have probs! Why?
__________________
Try my Lord of the Rings MAP out: Lands of Middle Earth v2 NEWS: Now It's a flat map, optimized for Conquests

The new iPod nano: nano
Hagbart is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 14:14   #16
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by Hagbart
BTW to Thrawn: No probs with huge maps? I have a p3-550 too and I have probs! Why?
In order to keep this threat in topic, I will PM you shortly my answer.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 17:09   #17
HazieDaVampire
King
 
HazieDaVampire's Avatar
 
Local Time: 06:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The British Empire
Posts: 1,105
PM me too, i have a 450 and i have to wait about 1 min!
HazieDaVampire is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 19:54   #18
Inverse Icarus
Emperor
 
Inverse Icarus's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: May 2001
Location: flying too low to the ground
Posts: 4,625
i'd like to see a "kamakazie" button that doubles the range of a REGULAR fighter (any aircraft), not a special unit.

In civ2 you could kamakazie your fighters all you wanted to.
__________________
"I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
- Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card
Inverse Icarus is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 20:53   #19
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by UberKruX
i'd like to see a "kamakazie" button that doubles the range of a REGULAR fighter (any aircraft), not a special unit.

In civ2 you could kamakazie your fighters all you wanted to.

Or just double all the values. And degrees the interception chance by a 1/3.

Hazie: I'll work on... it's late right now and I just noticed it.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 21:25   #20
Coracle
Prince
 
Coracle's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 915
Japanese kamikazes were a DESPERATION measure that came late in World War Two.

Unless Civ 3 breaks down into monthly turns it really is unrealistic to have them as they lasted in fact for a very short time.
Coracle is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 21:28   #21
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by Coracle
Unless Civ 3 breaks down into monthly turns it really is unrealistic to have them as they lasted in fact for a very short time.
I would like that. Have modern age take 12 turns to do a full year. So turn A would be 1941.12, B: 1942.01, C: 1942.02, ect.
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 21:32   #22
Coracle
Prince
 
Coracle's Avatar
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 915
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn05


Those were the days.

I'm leaning towards having Firaxis go back to that system if they won't increase the range beyond 8 in the editor.
Yes, those Civ 2 days. How we miss them.

Bombers in Civ 3 are a pain for many reasons besides being relatively ineffective and having much too short a range.

In Civ 2 bombers could INTERDICT tiles. In otherwords, you could leave your bomber on a tile and unles it could be shot down the enemy could not move onto it. This was very useful for invasions.

Try interdicting the area around a planned invasion site now with Civ 3! You would need WAVES of bombers trying to destroy the roads and RR's, if not shot down.

That, combined with the crazy unlimited MP's on RR's, makes invasions very difficult to succeed owing to the counterattack.
Coracle is offline  
Old August 19, 2002, 21:50   #23
Thrawn05
King
 
Local Time: 01:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Constantly giggling as I type my posts.
Posts: 1,735
Quote:
Originally posted by Coracle


Yes, those Civ 2 days. How we miss them.

Bombers in Civ 3 are a pain for many reasons besides being relatively ineffective and having much too short a range.

In Civ 2 bombers could INTERDICT tiles. In otherwords, you could leave your bomber on a tile and unles it could be shot down the enemy could not move onto it. This was very useful for invasions.

Try interdicting the area around a planned invasion site now with Civ 3! You would need WAVES of bombers trying to destroy the roads and RR's, if not shot down.

That, combined with the crazy unlimited MP's on RR's, makes invasions very difficult to succeed owing to the counterattack.
Pretty sweet, but I must admit, I never played Civ2 . I do play Civ1 for the SNES, and I like the air combat on that.

Jets move, destroy a target, and must return within the same turn to a city or carrier, or city to carrier or vise versa.

Bombers take up to 2 turns in the air. Which means they can move I think 16 tiles, and then the turn move another 16.

That system I liked.

It's good to be the KING!
__________________
I drink to one other, and may that other be he, to drink to another, and may that other be me!
Thrawn05 is offline  
Old August 20, 2002, 03:18   #24
MarkG
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Apolyton CS Co-Founder
 
MarkG's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Macedonia, Greece
Posts: 24,480
Quote:
Originally posted by Coracle
Yes, those Civ 2 days. How we miss them.
why dont you go back to it then?

and yes, after the continuing lack of replies to my posts, i can post my favorite part of the song that was obviously written for coracle, even if he probably wasnt born at the time
Quote:
Brave Sir Robin ran away,
Bravely ran away, away.
When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
And gallantly, he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat,
Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin.
you'll find the first part in previous posts of mine
__________________
Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog

Last edited by MarkG; August 20, 2002 at 03:26.
MarkG is offline  
Old August 20, 2002, 03:31   #25
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
You should expect a PM on the morrow.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old August 20, 2002, 03:42   #26
MarkG
Apolytoners Hall of FameApolyCon 06 Participants
Apolyton CS Co-Founder
 
MarkG's Avatar
 
Local Time: 08:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Macedonia, Greece
Posts: 24,480
morrow?
__________________
Co-Founder, Apolyton Civilization Site
Co-Owner/Webmaster, Top40-Charts.com | CTO, Apogee Information Systems
giannopoulos.info: my non-mobile non-photo news & articles blog
MarkG is offline  
Old August 20, 2002, 03:49   #27
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
On the morrow = Tomorrow.

Sorry, 'talking' with too many Brits lately, must have activated a recessive gene.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
Old August 20, 2002, 04:54   #28
Nym
Prince
 
Nym's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: France
Posts: 545
The idea is interesting, but it should have limitations:
  • the plane must have enough mouvement points to reach the city,
  • the success rate should only be a little better than bombardement if the plane hits the city without being intercepted/destroyed by SAM or fighter.
__________________
Nym
"Der Krieg ist die bloße Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln." (Carl von Clausewitz, Vom Kriege)
Nym is offline  
Old August 20, 2002, 05:54   #29
fittstim
Warlord
 
fittstim's Avatar
 
Local Time: 07:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 265
Quote:
Originally posted by vondrack

fittstim,

the Japanese used kamikaze pilots en mass throughout the late WW2, when desperately trying to stop the US from reaching the Japanese homeland. It was not just a few of them, they were ending their lives in hundreds. Also, the Japanese cities did not appear to rise up and rebel because of that, if you mention it. Actually, becoming a kamikaze was highly esteemed in the Japanese society. It had to do much with the cultural background of the nation.
Were you drunk when you wrote that or are you really that confused about world history?

The Japanese did not use kamikaze plane "en masse". This is a military fact. Their claim to fame is the "TERROR" that they caused in the soldiers opposing them. Much like suicide bombers in Israel. They were, however, not as popular or common as their claim to fame would have one believe.

Saying that there were "hundreds" of them is a joke compared to the TENS OF MILLIONS of soldiers fighting in the war.

Becoming a kamikaze pilot was definitely NOT an esteemed act within the society. When the generals realized that many of the supposed "kamikaze" pilots weren't actually killing themselves but bailing out (usually too early so that the plane crashed into the ocean), they enacted a policy of welding the pilot within the canopy so that escape was not possible. The samurai/bushi mentality encouraged bravery and honor in battle. Not exactly what people think of when they hear about kamikaze (or suicide bombers).

The sad fact was that the Japanese pilots were getting shot down/killed at an unsustainable rate. The kamikaze idea was sheer desperation because they were out of skilled pilots.

Side note: There were several "kamikaze" pilots who actually survived? Strange but true fact...
fittstim is offline  
Old August 20, 2002, 06:27   #30
notyoueither
Civilization III MultiplayerCivilization III PBEMInterSite Democracy Game: Apolyton TeamC3C IDG: Apolyton TeamApolytoners Hall of FameCiv4 InterSite DG: Apolyton TeamPolyCast TeamPtWDG Gathering StormC4DG Gathering Storm
Deity
 
notyoueither's Avatar
 
Local Time: 00:20
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
5 thousand men and aircraft are not an insignificant number. Especially the aircraft.

Sinking or damaging hundreds of allied (American) ships is not insignificant either.

How many kamikaze missions at Okinawa alone?

Are you drunk, or just mad that someone has an opinion different from yours?
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
notyoueither is offline  
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:20.


Design by Vjacheslav Trushkin, color scheme by ColorizeIt!.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Apolyton Civilization Site | Copyright © The Apolyton Team