Does the barbarian leader ever win?

Jim W · December 2, 2000, 16:28

Has anyone here ever lost a battle with a barbarian leader? I'd bet you could only do that if you were attacking him on a mountain with a spearman who had just a sliver of red showing.

In my last few games I've made sizeable amounts by responding to barbarian incursions with a fairly hefty "bait," letting the barbs attack that until the leader is out in the open, then jumping on him with whatever's closest.

I'm wondering if this might not be a crutch for the weaker player. (If you remember that far back(

))

Jim W

Richard Bruns · December 2, 2000, 18:11

Yes, the barb leader can and will kill units. This is because the battle calculations in Civ2 cause the attacker to lose hitpoints in a tie, so if the attacker rolls a zero it will get hurt. There is a 1 in 8 chance of a 1 attack unit rolling a zero. A 1 attack unit attacking at 2/3 or 1/3 strength has an even higher chance of rolling a zero.

According to the currently accepted theories of the civ 2 battle formula, the terrain of the barb leader shouldn't matter in this. But it seems to, and no one knows why.

A good assumption is that barb leaders, diplomats, and spies have a defensive factor of 1/8.

This is most definitely not a crutch for weak players. All the best players use the strategy a lot. Some of them have figured out how to create a barbarian breeder zone by leaving a big patch of wilderness in the middle of their cities, which gives them a lot of money and cheap units.

tonic · December 2, 2000, 19:29

In a thread by Smash some time ago I did some tests on the defensive strength of the Barb Leader and came up with a factor of 0.17 somewhat higher than the 0.125 (1/8) suggested by RB.

This defensive capability of the Barb Leader can be demonstrated when he is stacked with a very injured unit say an Archer (blackened shield). When you attack the stack, it is the Barb Leader who defends - something to remember for that capture bonus!

The defensive factor of the Barb Leader is easily noted qualitatively when he is captured. Your attacking unit often suffers some hit points however small and the terrain is relevant.

finbar · December 2, 2000, 19:53

On a sort of related issue. T'other day, I chased barb units into a barb city. Didn't have writing, so I didn't have diplos. Attacked the city. There were two barb leaders inside. They died separately. What riches.

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[This message has been edited by finbar (edited December 02, 2000).]

WhiteKnight · December 3, 2000, 03:35

I think I have lost a unit to a barb leader once. He was on a mountain, and I was almost dead

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Ming · December 3, 2000, 04:48

Just last night in an MP game... I lost a warrior to a barb king sitting on a hill when I attacked at 2/3 stregth. Major bummer

Laertes · December 3, 2000, 09:38

It hapened to me too. A perfectly healty warrior chased a barb down a river. At 1/3 movement points left, he attacked the leader, also on a river, and lost!

On the upside, in the same game, an AI warrior attacked a caravan on open ground and lost.

Mercantile · December 3, 2000, 17:14

the only time my units have EVER lost to a barb king is if they were injured, or as others are stating , using 1/3 - 2/3 of their movement points. I have lost horses, phalanxes and warriors to the vile little redheads. I wonder if the barb king ever takes on the "Super Barbarian" complex that has been discussed in one of the archived threads of the past?

December 3, 2000, 17:26

What I can say that once,
I'm not quite sure if in civ1 or 2,
barbarian leader poisoned my water supply,
sabotaged production oslt.
Does it happen often?
After all, it is diplomatic unit;
when you bribe it...
And yes, I have lost some battles with it.

Jim W · December 3, 2000, 21:59

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Bruns on 12-02-2000 05:11 PM

This is most definitely not a crutch for weak players. All the best players use the strategy a lot. Some of them have figured out how to create a barbarian breeder zone by leaving a big patch of wilderness in the middle of their cities, which gives them a lot of money and cheap units.

Actually, those of us who have been following ths forum for a while will recall that this was a reference to a post some time ago which went on and on and on, until the people in charge decreed an end to it.

The original post was titled "We Love the King Day: A crutch for the weaker player."

Jim W

Richard Bruns · December 4, 2000, 12:39

quote:

Originally posted by Jim W on 12-02-2000 03:28 PM
I'm wondering if this might not be a crutch for the weaker player. (If you remember that far back(

))

I thought "that far back" was referring to the time that you were a weaker player. Oh well, sorry.

Jim W · December 4, 2000, 23:49

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Bruns on 12-04-2000 11:39 AM
I thought "that far back" was referring to the time that you were a weaker player. Oh well, sorry.

Heck, I still _am_ a weaker player!

Jim W

johnmcd · December 13, 2000, 18:26

Bah, I just lost a vet phalanx to a Barb Leader. The phalanx wasn't much less than half health, thought the barb was on a hill. He was leader of the Alan's I later discovered, which I can well believe as he is my flatm8.

DrFell · December 16, 2000, 00:01

quote:

Originally posted by Squonk on 12-03-2000 04:26 PM
What I can say that once,
I'm not quite sure if in civ1 or 2,
barbarian leader poisoned my water supply,
sabotaged production oslt.
Does it happen often?
After all, it is diplomatic unit;
when you bribe it...
And yes, I have lost some battles with it.

ive had this happen, too! it was in civ1, and it only ever happened once.. the barb 'diplomat' sabotaged one of my city improvements. but then again there were other things i only saw once in civ, like the 'spontaneous city defecting' so i just put it down to a bug. glad to see im not the only one whos experienced this before.