Should Israel Have Been in Europe Instead

[Ned]

Originally posted by red_jon


LOL. That one is pathetic even for a troll

0.3/10

A little self-denial.

The Euro's position on the ME is pathetic.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by red_jon


Because some peoples, most notably the Danish, defended the Jews, risking their own lives. When the Nazis occupied Denmark, non-Jews wore the star of david too, to show solidarity.

Yet many Danes served in the Waffen SS, a voluntary organization. The Germans accomodated their like-minded Scandinavian brethern by giving them their very own SS division!

[Franit]

IMHO, The Euro's were collectively responsible for the Holocost. They all cooperated with Hitler. They OWE Israel. It is immoral that they now support the terrorist Arafat who is again trying to repeat the Holocost. Their excuses for their continuing anti-Semitism are lame at best.

They owe the jewish people, NOT Israel. Israel didn't even exist as a country since the United Nations give the boot to millions of palestinians.

[Ned]

Franit, making distinctions between Jews and Israel is also part of the Europe's problem.

[Chris 62]

People are starting to take DaShi's goofy troll thread seriously, i must chastize him elsewhere for this....

[Datajack Franit]

(damn I forgot to delete my old account )

btw Ned, many jews in the world (and not only them) totally disagree with Israel's politics of dealing with palestinian refugees. I give my support to the jews survivors of WW2, but no way I'm going to say that they're allowed to do the same treatment they received in Germany to someone else. Otherwise it's just an endless spiral of death.

[Rogan Josh]

I agree. They should have been put somewhere in the west, rather than forcing out the arabs. Lets see, where is the least densely populated part of the west....?

Ah, the US! They could have been given some underpopulated state like Mississippi which no-one would have missed.....

That would have been a much more sensible solution, and would have been supported by the US public since they like Jews so much.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh
They could have been given some underpopulated state like Mississippi which no-one would have missed.....

You did that just to annoy me, didn't you?

Franit: Israel didn't even exist as a country since the United Nations give the boot to millions of palestinians.

The UN gave the Palestinians thier own state in the original partition plan.

[Sirotnikov]

as a country since the United Nations give the boot to millions of palestinians.

bah, what nonsense is this??

a) some 650,000 (numbers vary) arabs were displaced during 1947-1949
b) some 150,000 remained in 1949 Israel.
c) meaning that before there were roughly 800,000 palestinians in what was meant to be Israel.

800,000 is not millions. not even one million.

the UN had nothing to do to their displacement. If you've seen wars, you know that people get displaced.

after the war, some 680,000 Jews were kicked out or left after persecution from Arab countries.
Did you ever care about that?

UN suggested a peaceful division between arabs and jews according to where jews and arabs lived.

that way there would have been a palestinian and a jewish nation.

arabs didn't want that and declared war. jews wanted that (and their will for self definition is protected by the UN charter and their decision about the establishment of Israel) and fought back.

welcome to the world of ME history debating.

but no way I'm going to say that they're allowed to do the same treatment they received in Germany to someone else

please read my next post:

[Sirotnikov]

What would've Jose Saramago written if he had visited Aushwitz in 1944?

Yehoshua Sobol

In the spring of 1944, when Germany was protecting itself from the cruel terror campaign managed against it by the world Jewry, the third Reich allowed a group of famous writers to visit Treblinka, Aushwitz and Sobibor to see the life conditions in those camps. Among the invited was Jose Saramago, and he described what he saw in this document.

"Already on the way to Aushwitz, the capitol of the future Jewish state, you can feel that life here are not like the life in the capitols of Europe. Roadblocks of the German army on the roads leading to Aushwitz cause huge traffic jams in the entrance and the exit from the camp. Jews who want to leave Aushwitz for their work in Krakow are forced to wait for long hours in the monstrous traffic jams caused by the soldiers of the German occupation who check every car that leaves the camp and search carefuly for the IDs of every Jew who wants to leave for work or to bring food for his family. Not once I saw the soldiers humiliate the Jews and even abuse them. I saw with my own eyes a soldier throwing the ID of a Jewish reporter on the floor and asking him to pick it up. With my own eyes I saw a young German soldier aiming and firing rubber bullets on a group of Jewish kids who were only throwing stones and Molotovs on him."

"But this is nothing compared to the reaction of the Germans to the bombing of a train filled with gas baloons that was about to enter Aushwitz to supply gas to the residents of the camp. Immediately after the teract, in which 9 soldiers were killed I saw German soldiers, armed to the teeth, passing from house to house scaring innocent families. With my own eyes I saw them breaking a wall and entering stright into the living room of a scared Jewish family in the middle of their dinner. The little children started crying and the parents had to calm them down while the German soldiers opened desks and searched for bombs. When the soldiers left the small apartment of the shocked family, they left a horrible mess after them."

"The rude behavior of the soldiers is unthinkable. Some of the Nazi soldiers who invaded the houses of the Jews in Aushwitz arranged the family in one room while the soldiers were lying in their sweaty uniforms on the beds of the Jews without taking off their boots. Such brutal behavior enraged the fighters in the Jewish organizations who opened fire on the German soldiers. The Germans retaliated with tank fire and killed 17 Jewish fighters and five more Jewish civilians who didnt participate in the fighting and were accidently in the middle of the fighting between the Jewish fighters protecting Aushwitz and the German troops."

"When the Germans couldnt accomplish their goal and bring the Jewish organizations to a cease fire the German occupation authorities decided, as ordered by the Fuhrer, to humiliate the Jewish leader of Aushwitz. Tanks surrounded his compound, and he was not allowed to go to Birkenau to a conference of the leaders of the Jewish camps all over Europe. This attempt achieved the opposite result, and the support for the Jewish leader increased. In the moment the world discovered about his house arrest, Jewish and non-Jewish leaders from around the world started flowing to Aushwitz to support the humiliated Jewish leader."

"Eventually, because of the protests around the world, the Germans had to withdraw their forces from Aushwitz and the feeling among the Jews was a feeling of victory. When the Germans tanks were retreating from the camp Jewish children were running after them, destroying the antennas and the third reich flags on the tanks and burning them infront of the German armors. 'look on them! you can really see the feeling of defeat in the their eyes!' called a Jewish boy while throwing molotov bottle on the tank."

"But behind the momentary euforia of the Jews, Aushwitz stays Aushwitz. The suffering of the population is unbelievable. The retreating German soldiers fired on the warm water boilers on the roofs of the Aushwitz homes and the residents of the camp were forced to shower in the cold water of spring 1944. Some soldiers broke the windows of Jewish luxury stores, and even plundered siggaretes and beer cans.
A tank crew turned on a speaker playing the German anthem, hurting the feeling of the Aushwitz Jews."

"The citizens of Aushwitz told about two cases when German roadblock soldiers prevented Jewish pregnant women from going to the hospital in Krakow and cause the death of two babies. An old Jew who suffered a severe teeth pains was forced to walk on foot from Aushwitz to Birkenau to get a treatment from a local dentist specializing in gold teeth".

"From the reports of the humanitarian organizations working in the different camps, in the last 15 months, from January 1943 to this spring of 1944 at least 1200 Jews died in Birkenau, Aushwitz, Sobibor and Treblinka, while the German casualties are only 400, in clashes with Jewish freedom fighters. A simple math shows that in all these camps, in average, 3 Jews were killed every day! As a humanist writer and the Nobel prize laureat I can say this : The horror of Aushwitz, like i've seen with my own eyes, can only be compared to what Jews will be doing in 60 years to Palestinians in Rammalah."

[Sirotnikov]

I hope this shows you why any comparison between the Holocaust and the Intifada is idiotic.

[DerSchwarzfalke]

For one, Jews never said "Next Year in Brussels" at their Passover meals. They, for the most part, as a people have always had a long and intimate attachment to Jerusalem and the eretz around it, where their culture and religion was formed, where they as a people molded from twelve tribes into one nation. They did not do this in Belgium; they did not do this in Uganda; they did this in Judea, from which they were expelled and massacred -- and I promise you, more brutally and in far larger numbers.

And a European Jewish state would not work terribly well either considering the large number of sephardim whose modern culture was formed in North Africa and the Middle East, not in Europe. Israel itself is a crossroads between the two continents, and therefore a kind of meeting place between the two groups of Jews long-seperated.

And either way, let's consider the Holy Land. Aside from brief periods of Crusader states, which were not really united, the only true, independent nation to ever live on that whole land was a Jewish one. They have a right to the land that has always been theirs, in writings, in thoughts, in prayers, and now, in reality.

[C0ckney]

I can't believe people are taking this troll seriously :/

[Datajack Franit]

Hey this topic is getting interesting

First of all I just want to say that I'm not antisemitic, I just want to say that I think without being labeled as a racist and so on (as a foreigner living in Italy I can tell what's racism like, and I want no part in it)

Capice? Now let's see..

the UN had nothing to do to their displacement. If you've seen wars, you know that people get displaced.

Maybe this is the reason why it was called the arab-israel war? BTW you are using the word "displaced" as you were talking about cattle instead of people

after the war, some 680,000 Jews were kicked out or left after persecution from Arab countries.

That's not completely true. If you're referring to the WW2 it's a big fat lie. Arabs had no reason to kick out jews since the creation of the state of Israel.

If you're instead referring to the arab-israeli war then you should remember what's the Return Law.
The " Return Law" was issued after the declaration of independence of Israel, and allows every jew in the world to have the israeli citizenship. You call this persecution?

More soon

[Datajack Franit]

arabs didn't want that and declared war. jews wanted that (and their will for self definition is protected by the UN charter and their decision about the establishment of Israel) and fought back.

Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

Using this same philosophy (we were here 2000 years ago so it's our home) then every single european nation should give up its territory to the discendants of the romans. Or I could kick you out of you own home and sending you live in the restroom if I could prove I was living there before you. That's definitely not right.

And, fought back means that you kick an invader out of your country. Now, where's the palestinian country? Nobody knows. And while they were there, they also decided to invade some more countries and take more land than it had been promised by the UN (referring to the period since 1967), including Syria, Egypt and Jordan.

I'll say it again, the holocaust was a tragedy for the whole human race. But look at what the germans did and say if there are common things in the way israelis are treating the palestinians since the creation of Israel state.

Next step? The UN creating a palestinian state in Belgium?

[kolpo]

First want I to point out that there where before the US involevement in WWII also American groups who supported Hitler and even nazism. Some of them waved nazi flags and wore nazi costums, those would be happy to coolaborate but Germany was just to far away.

Groups like that still exists withing the US, in the past in the pre-Reagan time, had the right wing of the republicans even some simpathies with antisemitisme.

The US waited also longer to fight Hitler then most European nations(off course where some forced(being attacked) in the war, that I agree with).


Am talking about non axis part of europe here(so all nations except italy and germany).

A part of the euopean population, a minority did indeed coolaborate with the nazis. Just like there was a part that fighted against them and helped jews.

Neither europe nor the US have moral high grounds in this issues.

But to say that every inhabitant of europe(=meaning of the word europeans) is responsible for the holocaust is nonsense. Just like the idea that we are anti semestic, the majority isn't anti semectic, the biggest part of the population just doesn't care, so all you see is the small group(of mostly muslim imigrants) who are anti-semestic.

Oh and mine point about the middle east:
Can terrorism againsts civilians under any circomstance be justified? no!
Can killing an inocent civilian who is by accident near a terrorist under any circomstance be justified? no!

[Adalbertus]

the UN had nothing to do to their displacement. If you've seen wars, you know that people get displaced.

This is a bad habit after 1939. Hitler started it and every idiot meant to imitate this. The overwhelming majority of wars after 1000 BC simply was about power, and very rarely about living space (as Hitler pretended). A war for power doesn't result in displacement of people - you may find one or two exceptions, but it was definitely not the rule. After a war for power, the leading class of the beaten population was killed or imprisoned, and the mean folk became a servant class or continued their usual life under new rulers.
The idea one region = one people = one state is the most sick consequence of the 19th century nationalism (mostly spread by the French Revolution).

[DaShi]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit


Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

It's this kind of unilateralism that is keeping the UN from being an effective body of peace.

[Sirotnikov]

Maybe this is the reason why it was called the arab-israel war? BTW you are using the word "displaced" as you were talking about cattle instead of people

The UN has nothing to do with that still.

I chose to use displacment since its more general and I don't want to get into specifics.

alot of people fled on their own.
alot were kicked out or encouraged to leave.

That's not completely true. If you're referring to the WW2 it's a big fat lie. Arabs had no reason to kick out jews since the creation of the state of Israel.

It happenned after WWII.
And it is a fact. Some 680,000 jews that lived in arab countries were persecuted or kicked out.

There are still very very very small communities in Iraq, Iran and Syria, but they are constantly harrassed, often on charges of conspiracy or espionage.

The " Return Law" was issued after the declaration of independence of Israel, and allows every jew in the world to have the israeli citizenship. You call this persecution?

The Law of return is what allowed them to return.
Israel infact took responsability to save those jews from persecution.

Persecution was in riots in which jewish property was destroyed and jews were killed. government persecution. limiting of rights. ceisure of property.

now, if they had been in some way responsible for a war it would be logical. but they were persecuted merely because they are jews, and they were automatically seen as israeli comrades.

Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

This is a huge over simplification of what happenned.

There are jews that lived here for generations. On the other hand there were also arabs who immigrated from other areas like syria.

Infact, there never was an independent country in palestine, except for the times it was called Judea and Israel - under Jewish rule.

Or I could kick you out of you own home and sending you live in the restroom if I could prove I was living there before you. That's definitely not right.

Look, jews start immigrating to palestine, hoping to set up some country in it.

Jews actually bought lands from landlords and developed it. Or it settled in free parts.

It is a very natural process of peoples immigration that has happenned along history.

How do you think the syrian arab palestinians got to Palestine? Immigration.

And, fought back means that you kick an invader out of your country. Now, where's the palestinian country? Nobody knows. And while they were there, they also decided to invade some more countries and take more land than it had been promised by the UN (referring to the period since 1967), including Syria, Egypt and Jordan.

Fought back means it fought back against the arab armies which invaded Palestine and Israel in 1948 and local commandos which existed since 1947.

The arabs denied the partition plan, claiming that they should have arab rule even over areas with jewish majority.

Just because Israel managed to overturn the odds, doesn't mean it is guilty.

I remind you that from 1949 until 1967 the West Bank, attributed to Palestine was under occupation by - Jordan!

Jordan infact is a part of historical palestine - that's right. It's some 78% of historical palestine, that the British randomly decided to part and give to the Hashemic dynasty which helped them in WWI.

Gaza was under Egyptian rule until 1967.

As far as Israeli conquests in 1967 go - you should also read some info about the arms and agression race towards the war, and then you will understand why Israel chose to attack in advance, instead of being caught in surprise.

Notice that we returned the territory we conquered from Egypt to Egypt, even though it is larger than Israel some 5 times iirc.

Why? Because they had sincere intentions of true peace.

We were also ready to give back some 99% of the land we took from Syria and up to 97% of the West Bank and Gaza. But they didn't care for true peace.

Why didn't we offer 100%? Because that way if we get attacked again we get a small advantage. The west bank has a height advantage. So does the Golan. Notice its called "The Golan Heights".

But look at what the germans did and say if there are common things in the way israelis are treating the palestinians since the creation of Israel state.

Hmmm...
I suggest you re-read the text I posted and you'll see how ludicrous is what you are saying.

Can terrorism againsts civilians under any circomstance be justified? no!
Can killing an inocent civilian who is by accident near a terrorist under any circomstance be justified? no!

That's easy to say for you because you're sitting there in chilly europe / america and watching us die.

Tell me, if you knew that you can prevent Sept 11, the death of 3,500 people if you will send a rocket on Osama's house in afghanistan, that may kill 100 innocent people, what do you do?

Well let me tell you - when you are a participant in a war and face the actual risk of being among the dead, you prefer the dead to be on the other side of the fence.

[Sirotnikov]

Call me crazy but if tomorrow the UN says that I have to give up my country to a foreigner I wouldn't want that as well.

Well if Sicilians (sp?) want to form thier own state, what would you do?

The UN charter says that they can do that.
So do the 14 principles of Willson on which modern politics are based in one way or another.

This is a bad habit after 1939. Hitler started it and every idiot meant to imitate this. The overwhelming majority of wars after 1000 BC simply was about power, and very rarely about living space (as Hitler pretended).

Even still - wars got people displaced.

I don't see any french in england or any english in france.

I don't see english subjects on American soil.

I see french in canada (not french subjects though).

I see spaniards in america.

I see russia controlling areas with mongolians, ukranians, armenians, and dozens of other nationalities.

A war for power doesn't result in displacement of people - you may find one or two exceptions, but it was definitely not the rule. After a war for power, the leading class of the beaten population was killed or imprisoned, and the mean folk became a servant class or continued their usual life under new rulers.

But your claim that most wars were wars of power is untrue.

It is true mostly for late classical age in Europe. But only there.

There's a whole world outside Europe!!

The idea one region = one people = one state is the most sick consequence of the 19th century nationalism (mostly spread by the French Revolution).

whether it is sick or not is a very subjective subjects.

The palestinains seeem to think otherwise.
So do the Taiwanese. So did many Yugoslavian nations. So do many sub-spanish nations. So did many north Irish.

Just because you don't believe in nations doesn't mean you should force your concept on everybody else.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by kolpo
First want I to point out that there where before the US involevement in WWII also American groups who supported Hitler and even nazism. Some of them waved nazi flags and wore nazi costums, those would be happy to coolaborate but Germany was just to far away.

Groups like that still exists withing the US, in the past in the pre-Reagan time, had the right wing of the republicans even some simpathies with antisemitisme.

The US waited also longer to fight Hitler then most European nations(off course where some forced(being attacked) in the war, that I agree with).


Am talking about non axis part of europe here(so all nations except italy and germany).

A part of the euopean population, a minority did indeed coolaborate with the nazis. Just like there was a part that fighted against them and helped jews.

Neither europe nor the US have moral high grounds in this issues.

But to say that every inhabitant of europe(=meaning of the word europeans) is responsible for the holocaust is nonsense. Just like the idea that we are anti semestic, the majority isn't anti semectic, the biggest part of the population just doesn't care, so all you see is the small group(of mostly muslim imigrants) who are anti-semestic.

Oh and mine point about the middle east:
Can terrorism againsts civilians under any circomstance be justified? no!
Can killing an inocent civilian who is by accident near a terrorist under any circomstance be justified? no!

Only a few dozen Americans actually went over to Germany and volunteered to fight for Hitler, while hundreds of thousands of non-german europeans volunteered to join the Wafen SS. The axis in europe consisted not only of Germany and Italy, but also Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, and Finland. Also consider that a number of so called allied nations which were occupied by the axis actually produced more volunteers for the axis cause than for the allies!
Anti-semitism was endemic in europe long before WW2. It's most insidious document, the forged "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" was penned not by a German, but a frenchman who was also a noteable of the Church as well. The Czars of Russia gleefully used this document to their own ends wheneve they saw fit. Political parties in Austria passed it around as if it were a fact, and a number of Austrian parties used it as to support their primary party platforms. During the war individuals throughout europe willingly assisted the Germans in their crusade to eradicate the Jews. We now know that the French police, most of whom had held their positions since before 1940, were avid supporters of the "Final Solution". Anne Frank may have been hidden by some Dutch people, but she was also betrayed by other Dutch people. Poles, Croats, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, Hungarians and Russians all eagerly helped the Russians hunt down Jews and in some cases did the dirty work of murder for them. Even in Italy, once Hitler had Mussolini in his care and could require his co-operation the Italian fascists willingly assisted in the roundup of Jews. Do you honestly think that without civilian assistance the German holocaust could have been so efficient? After centuries of interbreeding the average european Jew didn't look that much different from his gentile neighbors. Of course, you couldn't have told that to a european then.

After the end of WW2 Genral Douglas McArthur, as the commanding allied general in Japan, actively assisted in covering up the role of emporer Hirohito in the war crimes of Japan, and encouraged focusing the blame on a certain number of well known but expendable military leaders. This was done in order to rapidly stabilize Japan. The Allied high command did the same thing in europe to the extent that the wide spread collaboration of non-combatant neutral and allied civilians was very much downplayed and blame was focused on a few high level nazis military and political leaders.

Now that europeans are once agin calling for the extermination of the Jewish race it's time to air out europe's dirty laundry. You've got some really messy undies out there.

[Zulu Elephant]

Tell me, if you knew that you can prevent Sept 11, the death of 3,500 people if you will send a rocket on Osama's house in afghanistan, that may kill 100 innocent people, what do you do?

If you knew that the 3,500 WTC deaths would somehow save 120,000 non-american lives would you feel that the WTC attack was justified?

[Datajack Franit]

alot of people fled on their own. a lot had been kicked out out forced to leave

Then I really don't think they kicked themselves out, someone must have, am I wrong?

There are still very very very small communities in Iraq, Iran and Syria, but they are constantly harrassed, often on charges of conspiracy or espionage

Yeah, and not even a single muslim had ever received the same treatment in Israel

There are jews that lived here for generations. On the other hand there were also arabs who immigrated from other areas like syria

There were jews but they were a minority. The whole south mediterranean coast was populated by arabs for centuries, while Israel ceased to exist after the Persians (or babilonians?) invaded the area, then the arabs came. The jews then left and spread around the world.

BUT the Israel nation was gone

Persecution was in riots in which jewish property was destroyed and jews were killed. government persecution. limiting of rights. ceisure of property.

Honestly, can you say that not even a palestinian had been killed, persecuted, had his rights limited and seen his properties stealed and destroyed by an israeli? I read about so many stories about all the horrible things israeli troops did and still do. And if you are an honest person (I'm sure you are) you can't deny that.

Myself as an italian I admit what my people did during the WW2. I hope you can as well.

Infact, there never was an independent country in palestine, except for the times it was called Judea and Israel - under Jewish rule

There was the Ottoman Empire, and btw you could say that at that time there wasn't even a turkish nation, etc...

Why? Because they had sincere intentions of true peace

So you said that I can invade a foreign country for defending myself then refuse to give it back even after there's no more danger? I'd call that the israeli Lebensraum, and wonder who had the same thoughts in Europe many ages ago

We were also ready to give back some 99% of the land we took from Syria and up to 97% of the West Bank and Gaza. But they didn't care for true peace.

So because they didn't want peace you keep their land?
Ohhh you deserve a medal, next time you seek more peace use a nuclear bomb as well
About Golan.. isn't that the Golan area is rich or fruit plantations and underground water supplies?

more to come

[Sandman]

Israel is a fine example of why self-determination is a flawed concept and should be abandoned.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Sandman
Israel is a fine example of why self-determination is a flawed concept and should be abandoned.

The principle of self-determination is responsible for bringing the Imperialist era to an end. Before the principle of self-determination was conceived nobody thought that there was anything wrong with the idea that powerful nations could take control of the less powerful forming multinational empires.



Free Scotland now!

[Datajack Franit]

Well if Sicilians (sp?) want to form thier own state, what would you do? The UN charter says that they can do that

So the sicilians can have their own state but the palestinians cannot. Very interesting point.

I see spaniards in america

Only because they are there it doesn't mean that exterminating dozens of civilizations was right

So do the Taiwanese. So did many Yugoslavian nations. So do many sub-spanish nations. So did many north Irish

They were all forced to live together in a common country. Look what's happened to all of them.

I believe in nations. I believe in democracy. I think that everyone should live in a country where everyone have the same rights. And forgive me if this sounds stupid to some of you.

[kolpo]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Now that europeans are once agin calling for the extermination of the Jewish race it's time to air out europe's dirty laundry.

Are you actually serious? Do you really believe that the majority of the euopeans wants the extermination of the jewish race?

Oke do a poll in europe with the question "Do you want the extermination of the jewish race?" I highly doubt more then 15% will vote yes, actually most will be very angry at the poller for even suggesting that question.

There live many jews in europe, they are a part of the european culture and can by all standards be considered europeans, just the idea that you believe we want the extermination of them is stunning.

Europeans means: all those who live in europe.
I live in europe and I don't want the extermination of them so your statement is with this proofed wrong. Actually a generalizing statment like that could be considered racist.

Yes the jews where prosecuted in the past of europe just like every other none christian religion. Just like europe heavily discriminated againsts other religions discriminated the US against black people. But quite all those we did that are now death and you can't blame a child for what his father did. A region can't be responsible of something, how could a piece of land be responsible? But people can, but most responsible are already death.

I sense in europe that most racism is towards muslims(especially after 11/9) . That is in some cases becoming scaring, like people who see all muslims as terrorists and fundamantalists. In the muslim population of europe is there indeed a big amount of anti-semitism but not in the mind of the average european.

I actually think that most europeans unlike there leaders have more simpathies with Israel then the Palestines. But in many countries in europe is the government much more pro palestine then the population(especially after 11/9).

[Sandman]

The principle of self-determination is responsible for bringing the Imperialist era to an end. Before the principle of self-determination was conceived nobody thought that there was anything wrong with the idea that powerful nations could take control of the less powerful forming multinational empires.

Here are the problems I see with self-determination.

*It encourages ethnic cleansing and the creation of 'homelands' regardless of who lives there. These homelands often overlap leading to neverending conflict.

*There is almost no limit to the number of potential peoples, nor to the number of 'homelands'.

*Self-appointed leaders of a 'people' can make claims which the majority do not agree to.

*Stateless peoples are made out to be inferior.

*People can be effectively disenfranchised by buying their demands off with powerless vassals.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Israel is like Turkey,

have Football clubs in Europe, Eurovision song contest
what else?

Generally they are considered European for most part.

* I think Kazahstan is a part of UEFA too ... so maybe Europe is expanding

* I forgot Maccabi was European Basketball champ several times.

What more do you need to claim Europe?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
If you knew that the 3,500 WTC deaths would somehow save 120,000 non-american lives would you feel that the WTC attack was justified?

If I had reason to believe so, I could have thought the attack was justified.

However, the attack targetted civilians which makes it illegitimate.

I do not support the purposeful targetting of civilians.

However, I would see an attack on the pentagon justified if it would somehow magically save thousands of people.


But also it depends on whether i'm an involved party and which side i'm on.