Your political views - Page 4

Sava · August 22, 2002, 00:37

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I love communists, they remind me of various fundamentalists. Thier faith is the common denomenator.

Anyone who believes in the Judeo-Christian and Islamic God, IMO, is a fundamentalist. (Atheists are also wrong)

The difference between US (the ones you brand as commies) and YOU (every theist) is that we put our faith in humanity's ability to create a utopian society, not in some invisible mythical, fabled god.

Jon Miller · August 22, 2002, 00:38

but to be a theist and a communist, that is the best

Jon Miller

Sava · August 22, 2002, 00:39

I'm following in your footsteps Che

... although I would never proclaim myself a communist

... even if I agree with some of Chomsky, Trotsky, or Lenin... like it or not, communism is exactly what the SU was and China is.

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 00:39

Quote:

If you think Anarachy is just mess, go read some Bakounine, some Proudhon, some Baboeuf, or just log off.

If you really think that anarchy==transcendence, then read some Hobbes.

DinoDoc · August 22, 2002, 00:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
we put our faith in humanity's ability to create a utopian society, not in some invisible mythical, fabled god.

You put your faith in a system that has failed each and everytime it was put to practical use.

chequita guevara · August 22, 2002, 00:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Sava:

The problem is that the government has almost always been proven inefficient at controlling those things you mentioned. It turns into a swollen bureaucracy,

A swollen bureaucracy that somehow manages to have lower overhead, less waste, and costs less to consumers than for profit corporations. Yes, you have to deal with bureacratic headaches from time to time, depending on whether the government considers the department worth the resources (say child and welfare services, which gets shafted). As you haven't worked for a real corporation yet, you have no idea what a bloated bureaucracy is like. Trust me, the government is far from bloated. Understaffed and overworked is more like it.

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 00:41

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
Anyone who believes in the Judeo-Christian and Islamic God, IMO, is a fundamentalist. (Atheists are also wrong)

So if you believe in God you're wrong, and if you don't believe in God you're wrong? That covers everybody, so at least I know I'm not in the boat alone...

Sava · August 22, 2002, 00:43

Che... corporations are swollen bureaucracies... with the government, the people have the power (in theory) to force change. Ideally, everyone in the government answers to society as a whole. The problem is that there is no accountability to the people.

Sava · August 22, 2002, 00:45

Quote:

Originally posted by loinburger

So if you believe in God you're wrong, and if you don't believe in God you're wrong? That covers everybody, so at least I know I'm not in the boat alone...

If you believe in God, you might be right but you have no proof or info to base your belief on. You should believe in your own ignorance and proclaim that you don't know. Even if one of the religions was the one true religion, it would be wrong to believe in them without proof or truth to base your belief on.

EDIT: Atheism is the belief that absolutely nothing exists. Theism is the belief that something exists. Being an agnostic is the way to go.

Socrates said something to the effect of, "The man who claims to know but really doesn't is not as wise as the man who admits he doesn't know."

alofatti · August 22, 2002, 00:50

Originally posted by Sava
"we put our faith in humanity's ability to create a utopian society, not in some invisible mythical, fabled god."

reply from DinoDoc
"You put your faith in a system that has failed each and everytime it was put to practical use. "

Can you tell me that this system has succeeded??

Sava · August 22, 2002, 00:52

my system hasn't been tried yet.... in fact, it's a revision of American Democracy and Capitalism...

DD, I'll make it official... I AM NOT A COMMIE

DinoDoc · August 22, 2002, 00:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
DD, I'll make it official... I AM NOT A COMMIE

Then the statement of mine you originally responded to wasn't refering to you, was it?

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 00:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
EDIT: Atheism is the belief that absolutely nothing exists.

That's nihilism. Atheists don't believe in a god or gods, which covers those who disbelieve and those who have no belief either way.

chequita guevara · August 22, 2002, 00:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava

I'm following in your footsteps Che

... although I would never proclaim myself a communist

... even if I agree with some of Chomsky, Trotsky, or Lenin... like it or not, communism is exactly what the SU was and China is.

I was not a communist until I went to DePaul. Take Rose Spaulding's Politics of Latin America class. That's what did me in (although she's move to the right since I took the class in 1989). When you learn that the US happily broke its own laws as well as the laws of other countries to get what it wanted, you suddenly reaslize that there is no logical reason to suddenly respect the law on this side of the border.

I went from socialist to defeated in one class. There is simply no way to reform the system. The repressive apartus won't allow it. They'd overthrow any serious socialist effort that somehow managed to get elected. That really took the wind out of my sails.

Then this commies said something that messed with my head, he mentioned that communism worked once, in the Paris Commune. Oh, I shoulda known to keep walking. Everyone tells you those sneaky bastards will say anything, but I was vulnerable, having just had all my political ideals smashed.

The rest, we shall say, is history.

Sava · August 22, 2002, 01:02

Che: I might agree with the idea that there is simply no way to reform the system. But communism is just not the way to go. I guess my image of communism is different from yours because my family escaped communism and came to America in 1958.

DD: I thought you were referring to me.

loinburger: but part of the pillar of atheism is that they are absolutely sure that there is no god or gods, I don't know if that is right or wrong... Theists are wrong because they can't prove their god(s) existence, Atheists are wrong because they can't disprove the theists god(s) existence.

alofatti · August 22, 2002, 01:07

Sava: I wasn´t clear enough in my post. I wasn´t criticizing your system, I was questioning the current system (it was supposed to be a reply to DinoDoc).

Sava · August 22, 2002, 01:08

huh, I wasn't talking to you alofatti, don't worry

... the current system does suck.

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 01:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
loinburger: but part of the pillar of atheism is that they are absolutely sure that there is no god or gods,

No, the one and only guarantee with an atheist is that he/she doesn't believe in god(s)--that is the one and only pillar of atheism. This does not necessarily mean that an atheist believes that there is/are no god(s)--many atheists, like me, neither believe in god(s) nor disbelieve in god(s). They have few, if any, metaphysical beliefs.

Quote:

Atheists are wrong because they can't disprove the theists god(s) existence.

Many atheists, like me, believe that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god(s). That doesn't mean that we need to believe in them.

Sava · August 22, 2002, 01:14

Then you are an agnostic, not an atheist... go back to school and take a survey of religion course.

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 01:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
Then you are an agnostic, not an atheist... go back to school and take a survey of religion course.

Agnosticism is an epistemological belief, not a metaphysical belief. Go back to school and learn about the different branches of philosophy.

Definition of an atheist:
1. An Atheist has no religious belief. An Atheist does not believe in a god or gods, or other supernatural entities.

Sava · August 22, 2002, 11:29

a·the·ist Pronunciation Key (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

thank you, come again....

chequita guevara · August 22, 2002, 11:55

Don't use dictionaries in philosophical debates. They are notoriously limited.

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 12:05

Sava: So you're saying that American Atheists doesn't know what an atheist is? Interesting...

I also note that you ignored my argument that agnosticism is an epistemological belief and not a metaphysical belief. I can only assume that you are diligently searching for inaccurate dictionaries in order to refute me, so I'll save you the trouble and clarify exactly what an agnostic is...

Quote:

An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,” as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870.

Agnosticism is the belief that metaphysical knowledge is impossible to acquire, therefore it is an epistemological belief (relating to knowledge) and not a metaphysical belief.

HazieDaVampire · August 22, 2002, 12:12

my score was
Economic Left/Right: -3.12
Authoritarian/Libertarian: 0.10

chequita guevara · August 22, 2002, 12:23

An Agnostic is simply an atheist who's hedging his bets.

Sava · August 22, 2002, 13:32

Well, sorry, but the term atheist has a set definition that is part of the English language. Atheists might consider themselves to have different beliefs than described in the definition. But its just like the "People's Republic of China"

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 13:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Sava
Well, sorry, but the term atheist has a set definition that is part of the English language.

Yeah, it's a real simple definition--a theist is someone who believes in god(s), and an atheist is somebody who is not a theist. The law of the excluded middle applies here--somebody is either a theist or an atheist. Saying that somebody does not believe in god(s) (or disbelieves in god(s)) is not equivalent to saying that somebody believes that there is/are no god(s), and the fact that you seem to think otherwise is no excuse for you to turn condescending.

Sava · August 22, 2002, 14:02

What do you mean turn? I'm always condesceding to people.

loinburger · August 22, 2002, 14:18

Ah, in that case carry on.

DarkCloud · August 22, 2002, 15:26

Quote:

I taken test on page you gived (politicalcompass.org), and it seems I am 4 to authoritarian side and 3 to right...

DarkCloaud, I know what you mean. I also have radical views at some things and people calls me neo-nazi. But, as that poll shown, I am not so authoritarian or right

My political compass score was less than 0.30 Economic Right, and less than 0.17 on Authoritarian right, if i remember correctly.

Sonic- I made an old chart, and if you consider most people's ratings, you are far to the right on authoritarianism-

Okay, hopefully this EXCEL graph posts correctly-

" Econ Left/Right Authoritarian/Libertarian Rightist/Leftist
Weidt (EU) -7.13 -7.49 -7.31
celedhring (EU) -6.88 -7.59 -7.235
Sheilbh (EU) -6 -8.46 -7.23
Danzig (EU) -7 -7.08 -7.04
Tau Ceti -6.75 -6.67 -6.71
Provost Harrison -6.88 -6.51 -6.695
Andy -6.63 -6.05 -6.34
Pirate Scum (EU) -5.63 -7.03 -6.33
Cunctator (EU) -4.88 -7.59 -6.235
Lethke (EU) -6.25 -6 -6.125
ColonyPod -4.75 -6.46 -5.605
Gerle (EU) -5.88 -3.54 -4.71
orange -5.38 -4 -4.69
Blade! (EU) -6.25 -2.62 -4.435
Teutonto (EU) -3.38 -4.21 -3.795
Orioles3386 -4.5 -2.77 -3.635
Chris Wilkinson -4 -1.9 -2.95
LUDWIG (EU) -3.13 -2.51 -2.82
friefrench (EU) -1.38 -3.28 -2.33
Zagys (EU) -1 -3.44 -2.22
reismark -0.38 -4 -2.19
Martinus (EU) 3.5 -7.49 -1.995
ColdWizard -0.63 -2.51 -1.57
Playa del Carmen -0.13 -2.51 -1.32
Linus (EU) -2.13 0.26 -0.935
Christmas 2.5 -2.77 -0.135
Laser -2.5 2.67 0.085
Gareth_Edmunson 3.13 -2.82 0.155
DarkCloud 0.13 0.26 0.195
savronela (EU) 3.5 -2.88 0.31
King (EU) 1.5 -0.21 0.645
Caesar the Great 2 -0.21 0.895
DinoDoc 4.13 -1.95 1.09
Monoriu (EU) 8.88 -3.59 2.645
Gregory (EU) 4.5 1.44 2.97
David Comnenus (EU) 3.75 3.03 3.39

-2.00 -3.57 -2.78
"

examples: