Chrétien to step down

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Loif
So why is it then, when one visits Quebec that all signs are in French, not English? Everywhere else in the country signs are in French AND English. Do I sense a little bit of hypocriscy here?

Things must have changed recently because I can't recall ever seeing bilingual signs in the west, except on Federal buildings.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
To say the West couldn't do anything is a cop-out. Westerners can vote just like everyone else.

I guess the answer would be stupid jack ass. The people most effected by PET and the NEP had been, and have been electing anybody other than Liberals for a very long time. What does that do for your spew of bigotry?

Try again.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai


It's like that old saying about when they came for the jews I did noting... (although obviously this is an extreme comparison).

When the War Measures Act was enacted, people outside of Quebec made no major objections. They let PET get away with it and they elected back into power. He then put in wage and price controls, and then after another election, the NEP.

Of course, people in Quebec were equally to blame for voting for Trudeau

To say the West couldn't do anything is a cop-out. Westerners can vote just like everyone else.

EDIT: My main point is that when PET enacted the War Measures Act, most people supported him. Quebecers who complained about their loss of liberty were seen as whiners.

The War Measures Act was a warning of what later followed, but the warning was ignored.

Quoted to be preserved for posterity. *Snigger*

That's rich. Comparing the actions of a democratically elected governement in [the] crushing of an armed insurrection by a fringe of nut jobs with the Holocaust. LMAO.

I think Godwin must be watching.

[Loif]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Things must have changed recently because I can't recall ever seeing bilingual signs in the west, except on Federal buildings.

In the rest of Canada (outside of Quebec) signs are written in English and French. In Quebec, most signs are written in French and where English signs are allowed, the French has to be written larger. How does this make sense? Is someone better than someone else if they speak French? I don't understand that thinking. We're all from the same country, so we should all be treated equally.

And as for saying that Westerners can vote, you're right, we can. Think about it though. The majority of Liberals live in Ontario and Quebec. This is also where the majority of the population of Canada lives. Geez, I wonder why the freaking Liberals keep getting elected?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
That's rich. Comparing the actions of a democratically elected governement in [the] crushing of an armed insurrection by a fringe of nut jobs with the Holocaust. LMAO.

You obviously have problems reading since you miss the part that said "although obviously this is an extreme comparison."

[Loif]

Why compare them at all then?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
The people most effected by PET and the NEP had been, and have been electing anybody other than Liberals for a very long time.

Oh yeah, here's the typical western whine. If you knew anything about PET's time in office you would know that his policies affected all Canadians.

The Quebecers got hit with the War Measures Act, not the west.

Everyone got hit by wage and price controls.

All of us are paying for the Liberal overspending during the Trudeau years, and for that matter the massive overspending during the conservative governments.

You should learn your history before you start insulting people.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Loif
In the rest of Canada (outside of Quebec) signs are written in English and French. In Quebec, most signs are written in French and where English signs are allowed, the French has to be written larger. How does this make sense? Is someone better than someone else if they speak French? I don't understand that thinking. We're all from the same country, so we should all be treated equally.

And as for saying that Westerners can vote, you're right, we can. Think about it though. The majority of Liberals live in Ontario and Quebec. This is also where the majority of the population of Canada lives. Geez, I wonder why the freaking Liberals keep getting elected?

I agree that the Quebec language laws are stupid, as do many Quebecers. But to claim that signs in the rest of Canada are bilingual is a fair bit of a stretch.

As for voting, the west hasn't figured have to vote politically. they keep creating fringe parties and voting for these fringe parties that have no chance of forming a government. When they do vote in a government, they help to destroy the government (e.g. the PCs).

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Loif
Why compare them at all then?

It's called an analogy.

[Loif]

Originally posted by Tingkai


I agree that the Quebec language laws are stupid, as do many Quebecers. But to claim that signs in the rest of Canada are bilingual is a fair bit of a stretch.

As for voting, the west hasn't figured have to vote politically. they keep creating fringe parties and voting for these fringe parties that have no chance of forming a government. When they do vote in a government, they help to destroy the government (e.g. the PCs).

So now you're saying the official opposition party is a "fringe party". You do know that the Alliance Party was born from the ideas of the Reform movement, which started in the west, right? Calgary to be exact. With Manning as the leader.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Loif
So now you're saying the official opposition party is a "fringe party". You do know that the Alliance Party was born from the ideas of the Reform movement, which started in the west, right? Calgary to be exact. With Manning as the leader. That's the problem with Easterners. They don't know anything about the country west of Toronto.

If you're going to respond, you should read the message.

I wrote that Westerners keep creating fringe parties, e.g. the Reform Party (and I may be mistaken, but I believe the first Reform Party convention was in Winnipeg).

And yes, the Reform Party was a fringe party. The majority of its support was confined to BC and Alberta. The Canadian Alliance has yet to gain significant support outside of BC and Alberta.

The fact that they are the official opposition doesn't mean anything. The BQ are a fringe party and they were the official opposition at one point.

What the Reform/CA has done is split the right wing vote allowing the Liberals to stay in power. If Westerners had been smart, they would stayed true to the PCs, working within the party to get what they wanted, rather than creating a regional party.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai


Oh yeah, here's the typical western whine. If you knew anything about PET's time in office you would know that his policies affected all Canadians.

The Quebecers got hit with the War Measures Act, not the west.

Everyone got hit by wage and price controls.

All of us are paying for the Liberal overspending during the Trudeau years, and for that matter the massive overspending during the conservative governments.

You should learn your history before you start insulting people.

You sir, are a bigot. I stuff your argument down your throat, you come back with some lame ass attempt to say that I am just some Westerner whining.

As far as history is concerned sir, maybe if you picked your head out your ass you'd know something about it. However, you have already discredited your knowledge of the history of Canada a great deal. Maybe it's time to move on to some other country a little less vast, and a little easier to cram into the one right view you seem to value so highly.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither


You sir, are a bigot. I stuff your argument down your throat, you come back with some lame ass attempt to say that I am just some Westerner whining.

As far as history is concerned sir, maybe if you picked your head out your ass you'd know something about it. However, you have already discredited your knowledge of the history of Canada a great deal. Maybe it's time to move on to some other country a little less vast, and a little easier to cram into the one right view you seem to value so highly.

You said nothing in this other than pointless insults. Just hot air. Come back when you have something meaningful to say.

[notyoueither]

No, I think many people will enjoy it. Maybe not you, but then the unwilling clown is usually not amused by the laughter.

And you're still a bigot.

[Tingkai]

Nye: Just because you repeatedly call someone a bigot, doesn't make them a bigot. This is all too typical of you. You go around labelling people without providing an ounce of evidence to support that label. (And you won't be able to find any evidence.)

You're also dillusional. The only troll here is you. While eveyone else has been discussing the issues, all of the posts from NYE have been just filled with insults.

Far too many Westerns love portraying themselves as powerless, downtrodden and at the mercy of the East, but is simply a myth maintained in order to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions.

Let's look at some facts that will destroy the myth that Westerners don't have any political power in Canada.

In 1979, the Conservatives form a minority government with a Western leader. The government falls after failing to get support from the Socreds, a party created in the West.

In 1984 and 1988, the conservatives are elected with massive majorities. Westerners respond by creating a splinter right-wing party.

The Reform Party/CA, both created in the west, splits the right wing vote allowing the Liberals to come up the middle and win numerous seats throughout Ontario and the West in the 1990s.

Western right-wingers are responsible for the split in the right wing and that split is why the Liberals are in power.

The idea that Quebec has enormous political power was true years ago when when winning the province was almost a guarantee for forming a government. But it is no longer true because the Quebec vote is split between the Liberals and the BQ.

[blackice]

Far too many Westerns love portraying themselves as powerless, downtrodden and at the mercy of the East, but is simply a myth

True.

The city of St. Albert is all french signs BTW on the streets that is.

The NEP was implimented to stop the American take over of Canada's resources. I wish people would get that right.

I may add I not hear "Let the Westerner farmers starve" either. I see the Eastern people jumping to the aid of the Westerners.

That sets us apart.

In any poll out here we do not support Cretien. He was elected for the reason's you sited and no one was going to vote for Dorris Day. Seems that too sets the country apart...

[Loif]

Where is "out here" blackice?

And you're right, it's nice that the eastern farmers helped out our farmers this year. See what we can accomplish when the country works together? I wish it happened more often.

[KrazyHorse]

http://www.counterglow.net/forum/sho...&threadid=6759

[blackice]

Originally posted by Loif
Where is "out here" blackice?

And you're right, it's nice that the eastern farmers helped out our farmers this year. See what we can accomplish when the country works together? I wish it happened more often.

Out East, several ridings out here told Cretien they can not support him as thier constituants do not. I don't think one Easterner batted an eye with helping. I don't think one Eastener has ever batted an eye helping about anything out there.

If the west could just stop teaching thier kids to hate half Canada a change would be easy comming. I truely beleive we could become a great nation. My god they still whine about the NEP and half of them do not even know what it was about. They are simply told it was against them. They are told it screwed thier economy blah blah blah.

All non-sense with some half truths, none of which promotes Canada as a nation.

It amazes me they are proud to be Canadian, some of them when we as a nation do well, sports etc. Then they turn around a think that Canada sucks and or the Eastern part. Quite reflects their voting practices really.

Had the West stuck with the PC party Instead of a separatist's wingnut party. Cretien may not be in power today, this conversation would not be happening.

Still we have to listen to thier whinning about the East and Cretien and PET who has been dead for years now.
Maybe they should change thier collective teaching and separatist additude?

For sure they should stop whinning and get with the real world. Most Easteners do not like Cretien but they hated Doris Day and a party that came across as hating the East.

Given the choice they were obviously way smarter in thier vote especially considering Doris Days record now. The economy would have died and we would all be worse off. Nope I think the Westeners should thank the Eastern people for thier wise ways.

Should be an interesting election.

[Loif]

Good.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Frogger
http://www.counterglow.net/forum/sho...&threadid=6759

Thanks for the, uhmm, interesting link. I rarely ever go to counterglow. And thanks for the putting up those comments.

What's up with Asher? He usually in here with guns a blazings, but instead he pulls this gutless routine of running off to another site to trash me behind my back. I'm know this is part of the Chris62 mentality, but Asher is usually not afraid to tell people what he thinks.

And what's with NYE. He could have trashed my comments about the Socreds and the Clark government here, but instead he does it on another site where I'm not going to see it.

I don't get it. We're talking on this site, and then people jump to counterglow to have the same discussion, and they seem to think that I'm going to follow them. What's wrong with talking here?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by blackice
If the west could just stop teaching thier kids to hate half Canada a change would be easy comming. I truely beleive we could become a great nation. My god they still whine about the NEP and half of them do not even know what it was about. They are simply told it was against them. They are told it screwed thier economy blah blah blah.

Stop being coherent. It's unsettling.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
And what's with NYE. He could have trashed my comments about the Socreds and the Clark government here, but instead he does it on another site where I'm not going to see it.

A discussion started there. Many things are discussed there. Ususally trying to avoid things here.

Why would you want to see it anyway? It would just be more Western Whining, would it not? But since you insist...

--- copied
The West should have done something about the War Measures Act and the FLQ. What a laugh.

Western regional parties caused the collapse of Clark's government. A classic. There were about 6 Socred MPs, all from Quebec. BTW, Mulroney had as much to do with Clark's demise as any other single person. Where's he from?

And how the **** is it our 'fault' that many Westerners often feel isolated by the political goings on in Ottawa and try to do something about it? Strange.

I will grant that Reform and the CA are close to a complete cluster-**** from my POV. However, I will point out that the West continues to send non-Liberal MPs to Ottawa in droves (quite a few from the NDs, I should point out). So where is the problem?
---

Now, which is it Tingkai? It's our fault for being part of the government, or it's our fault for never electing people who form the government? I've seen you (and others) argue both.

So, the question stands. Are you trolling? Or do your truely believe even half of the stuff you have posted about Western Canada and Alberta in particular? If you're a troll, fine. Congratulations, you're good at it. If you are serious about any large fraction of it, you are a bigot.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
A discussion started there. Many things are discussed there. Ususally trying to avoid things here.

So you go there to insult about people who you're avoiding? That's a bit pathetic.

Originally posted by notyoueither
The West should have done something about the War Measures Act and the FLQ. What a laugh.

Yup. The War Measures Act went way overboard.

Originally posted by notyoueither
Western regional parties caused the collapse of Clark's government. A classic. There were about 6 Socred MPs, all from Quebec.

True, and good point, but remember the Socreds were created in the West.

Originally posted by notyoueither
I will grant that Reform and the CA are close to a complete cluster-**** from my POV. However, I will point out that the West continues to send non-Liberal MPs to Ottawa in droves (quite a few from the NDs, I should point out). So where is the problem?

By creating the Reform/CA, conservative westerners have split the right wing vote in Canada and that's why the Liberals have a stranglehold on the federal government.

From the Globe:

"Vote-splitting between the Tories and the Alliance (formerly the Reform Party) has helped the Liberals cruise to three consecutive majorities. In November of 2000, the Liberals took 172 of 301 seats in the House of Commons with 40.8 per cent of the popular vote."

So yes, conservative Westerners are responsible for the Liberals being in power. This is simple politics. One thing about the Liberals is that they stick together. You don't see Martin running off to create a new party. Conservative westerners haven't learned this basic lesson and they won't because they like clinging to the myth that they have no power in Canadian politics.

As for being a bigot, I complain about the western whine ("those eastern bastards are screwing us", "we have no voice," etc) and westerners who whine, not Westerners as a whole. It wouldn't make sense for me to hate westerners given that most of my family was born out west.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai

So you go there to insult about people who you're avoiding? That's a bit pathetic.

--- snip

By creating the Reform/CA, conservative westerners have split the right wing vote in Canada and that's why the Liberals have a stranglehold on the federal government.

From the Globe:

"Vote-splitting between the Tories and the Alliance (formerly the Reform Party) has helped the Liberals cruise to three consecutive majorities. In November of 2000, the Liberals took 172 of 301 seats in the House of Commons with 40.8 per cent of the popular vote."

So yes, conservative Westerners are responsible for the Liberals being in power. This is simple politics. One thing about the Liberals is that they stick together. You don't see Martin running off to create a new party. Conservative westerners haven't learned this basic lesson and they won't because they like clinging to the myth that they have no power in Canadian politics.

As for being a bigot, I complain about the western whine ("those eastern bastards are screwing us", "we have no voice," etc) and westerners who whine, not Westerners as a whole. It wouldn't make sense for me to hate westerners given that most of my family was born out west.

I almost felt bad, no correct that, I did feel bad about that conversation at CG. Past tense. You are unbelievable. Only a bigot could be such a simpleton as to continue beating the drums of ignorance such as you do.

http://www.elections.ca/gen/rep/37g/table7_e.html
Thirty-seventh general election 2000

4 Western Provinces and 3 territories.
Liberals: 5+2+2+5+1+1+1 = 17
Other: 9+12+24+29+0+0+1 = 75

Ontario
Liberals: 100
Other: 3

It seems Western voters know what they want and are electing people other than Liberals. If the Liberals are the problem, where's the problem?

[Seeker]

The self-assured Eastern intellectuals again prove their 'superiority' over the hapless 'stupid' Westerners.

Isn't mainstream Canadian politics WONDERFUL?!

EDIT: A more proportional system would go a long way to solving the injustices in our current system....as much as I dislike some of their social policies, the EEE senate and recall are basically good ideas.

When was the last time a major party talked seriously about REAL parliamentary reform?

[notyoueither]

It doesn't suit any of them once they get into power.

Maybe that will change once people east of Manitoba are so well and truely sick of the Liberals that they return to the PCs. A CA-PC coalition would be quite frightening to too many people though.

It will be a cold day in Hades when a majority of people from Thuder Bay and east support a Western 'Whiner' party. The only hope for the right is that more people in Ontario and Quebec bury the hatchet with the PCs. IMO.

[Tingkai]

Simple concept: when westerners created the Reform Party and then the Canadian CRAP, the right-wing vote in Canada was split.

Even a small number of votes going to Reform/CRAP tipped the balance.

In Nova Scotia, 9.6 per cent voted for CRAP. That was enough to make a big difference when the PCs took 29 per cent of the vote while the Liberals took 36.5 per cent. If the right wing vote wasn't split, then the Liberals could have been shut out.

CRAP really helped the Liberals in Ontario. The Liberals win numerous seats because CRAP split the conservative vote.

If conservative Westerners had any sense they would join the PCs because the PCs is the only right wing party with a hope of gaining support throughout the country.

[notyoueither]

Gee, forgive them for excerising their rights under the laws of Canada. Go ahead, blame 'the West' (as if it's some monolithic entity) because a bunch of people east of Manitoba can't get their 'strategic' voting patterns right.

Once again, the problem seems to be with people like you from Central Canada who don't know squat about the rest of the country that isn't spoon fed to you by the Groan and Wail. And especially people like you who eagerly lap it up.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Once again, the problem seems to be with people like you from Central Canada who don't know squat about the rest of the country that isn't spoon fed to you by the Groan and Wail. And especially people like you who eagerly lap it up.

Not that's a typical comment from a Western bigot: you damm easterners don't know nothin.