Could we have the Iroquois league flag available for our profile?

[tniem]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Further, the Americans were assimilated more into the Iroquois ways than the other way around, so let's just dump the flag of the USA instead.

Interesting. What Iroquois ways would that be?

[Chris 62]

You don't want to go there, she's about to give you a twilight zone version of American history, starting with the Indians taught the Dutch democracy and going from there!

[Ribannah]

Someone called the BS-team? My aren't we friendly again.

Tniem, start with Thanksgiving (not exclusively Iroquois of course, but they have a zillion agricultural feasts).

http://www.albany.net/~printup/
http://www.usis.usemb.se/Holidays/ce.../thanksgi.html

[Lefty Scaevola]

Ribannah, Daaaarrrrhling, Markos and Dan can be quite amenable, when approched by (pleasant) PM or E-mail. They like the personaal touch. The formula is to associate "Get favor done" with "pleasant things standing out from the usual drivel". marcos also appear to apply a paitience test. He lets request sit a a que for several days or more, and if the requestor gets impatient, they get **** canned.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
marcos also appear to apply a paitience test. He lets request sit a a que for several days or more, and if the requestor gets impatient, they get **** canned.

Thanks Lefty, I know.
This is, by the way, very Iroquois by Markos.

[Wittlich]

I don't believe that Ribannah is being "impatient" or even "unpleasant"; she is just answering the questions placed on this thread by other Apolyoners.

Of course she could just ignore the thread for a week or so, but to what end? I believe she has good reasons for requesting the Iroquoian (League) flag and IMO, she's doing a good job justifying her reasoning to fellow Apolyoners.

[Ribannah]

OK I think this should just about be good enough.

[H Tower]

Originally posted by Ribannah
OK I think this should just about be good enough.

yours is better than mine, mine got distorted when i shrank the picture, i think it would be a cool addition to the flag group

[tniem]

So your telling me that Thanksgiving is a bigger societal impact than what Europeans brought to North America?

(I am not flaming or trying to start an argument. I just really want to understand your claim that

Americans were assimilated more into the Iroquois ways than the other way around, so let's just dump the flag of the USA instead

)

[Chris 62]

You'll be sorry..........

[KrazyHorse]

I said written INTO their constitution allowing a specific country to step into them

So Cuba wasn't a country between 1902 and 1959?

[KrazyHorse]

Or Panama...

[KrazyHorse]

The Iroquois were included in Civ3

How 'bout that for stating why it's necessary, Markos?

[Skanky Burns]

Good point, Froggy.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by tniem
So your telling me that Thanksgiving is a bigger societal impact than what Europeans brought to North America?

That was just for starters.
But why don't you tell us about something the Iroquois adopted.

(No, you're not flaming. It's a valid and relevant question and in fact a very interesting topic.)

[Darius871]

But why don't you tell us about something the Iroquois adopted.

How about everything they use today, everything from automobiles to television to fast food to the internet. You claim they are still some sort of nation, so therefore anything modern Iroquois own, use, or do that was not originally theirs is something they adopted from Americans.

And I ask you what America adopted from the Iroquois. Don't get me wrong; I concede that the list would be long, but it certainly wouldn't outweigh what the Iroquois adopted from America. Not by a long shot.

[DarkCloud]

You don't want to go there, she's about to give you a twilight zone version of American history, starting with the Indians taught the Dutch democracy and going from there!

Ja, I know. orange and myself already debated this with her and WON. I see no point to continue the debate from the Civilizations section here.

Ribannah-

Er, no, sorry, nothing in the League's constitution says anything like that.

Look. The USA allowed them to do that, but they aren't a soverign nation. The USA can draft them (I believe... not sure however) But since they vote in the USA's elections, they are not a soverign nation.

By the same reasoning, they are citizens of the League, since they get to vote in their own elections as well.
Or, since I get to vote in the European elections, and that makes me a citizen of Europe, you want the flags of all the member states of the EU removed?

that's why the EU flag is good!
They are all sovereign nations because it is an economic and political union, but they all retain their national borders! Anyways- perhaps they should be removed... But only if Europe is united in Air Traffic Lanes (what the strikes in France and Italia were about), etc.

USA has full free airspace over the Iroquois league, and, I am fairly sure, their air traffic controlers are united. Which is what the EU is unable to do.

Thus, until that, and a unification of the sewer systems, greater unification of traffic systems, etc. the EU nation-states still retain their soverignity. (Although we can all hope that they will someday unite and form Pax Europa! )

So Cuba wasn't a country between 1902 and 1959?

Not really. The USA were ********. Cuba and Panama were more like satellite provinces, along with The Phillipines. [Does anyone wonder why those nations hate america it's because America controlled them.]

Darius
She's going to say the constitution but we have disproven THAT claim. (about a year ago )

Good refutation

Further, the Americans were assimilated more into the Iroquois ways than the other way around, so let's just dump the flag of the USA instead.

That's ****!
Americans took over, killed the Iroquois ancestors, etc.

Tis' true that the Iroquois taught the Europeans how to use certain crops, etc. but if you are taking that token, we must have the Inca flag as well

[Lefty Scaevola]

Why the hell is this debate going on? If she and others can sweet talk Marcos is to grnating a flag. FINE! It is no skin off of anyone esles's back. Why don't you guys have a fight over something a little more serious, like your cats favorite brand of cat food.

[Lonestar]

Darkcloud;

If I recall correctly, The United States, to this day, treats Indian Nations as if they are, well, Nations.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Darius871
How about everything they use today, everything from automobiles to television to fast food to the internet.

No, that doesn't count. The Iroquois helped to develop these things alongside all other modernizing nations.

Originally posted by DarkCloud
I see no point to continue the debate from the Civilizations section here.

Then please make yourself scarce instead of being an a$$, so that people with a genuine interest can learn / add something worthwhile.

[tniem]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Why the hell is this debate going on? If she and others can sweet talk Marcos is to grnating a flag. FINE! It is no skin off of anyone esles's back. Why don't you guys have a fight over something a little more serious, like your cats favorite brand of cat food.

The reason that I am involved is the quote that the US got more from the Iroquois than the Iroquois got from the US (I assume this means the Europeans that came over). I am all for including a ton of flags if Markos or Dan would like to. Otherwise it doesn't matter. I just would like to understand this one claim. As Darius showed there is a ton that the Iroquois and all the world has gotten from America/Europe. I will agree that we all get stuff from others as well. But more from the Iroquois...

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by tniem
The reason that I am involved is the quote that the US got more from the Iroquois than the Iroquois got from the US

Whereas I protested when someone claimed that the Iroquois were entirely assimilated by the USA.

Tniem, for a second example, how about the right to vote?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Ribannah

No, that doesn't count. The Iroquois helped to develop these things alongside all other modernizing nations.


Then please make yourself scarce instead of being an a$$, so that people with a genuine interest can learn / add something worthwhile.

hi ,

, ...

what about a poll Ribannah , for the flag

have a nice day

[Darius871]

No, that doesn't count. The Iroquois helped to develop these things alongside all other modernizing nations.

How? I'm perplexed by this statement. Merely being around when these things are being developed is not considered being an integral part. Or having a few employees, scientists, engineers, etc. of Iroquois origin involved does not make it an Iroquois achievement.

Tniem, for a second example, how about the right to vote?

How about ancient Greece? Or several small colonial groups with their own systems?

Accept it, the colonies did not adopt the Iroquois political system. The constitution and values of the United States was a result of the colonists' circumstances. In response to religious persecution and underrepresentation attributed to their sovereign, they rebelled and set up a nation that would protect them from that. The democratic republic they set up was just a logical response to their circumstances.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by panag
what about a poll Ribannah , for the flag

Panag, my friend, the other nations did not have to pass a poll to be allowed to show their flag, so why should that be demanded of the Iroquois?

"Our wise forefathers established Union and Amity between the Five Nations. This has made us formidable; this has given us great Weight and Authority with our neighboring Nations. We are a powerful Confederacy; and by your observing the same methods, our wise forefathers have taken, you will acquire such Strength and power. Therefore, whatever befalls you, never fall out with one another." Canassatego, the great Iroquois chief, advising the assembled colonial governors on Iroquois concepts of unity in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, 1744.

http://www.ratical.org/many_worlds/6Nations/

More reading material ...

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/iroquois.html

On August 3, 1990, Bush declared the month of November as "National American Indian Heritage Month. Activities planned will focus on Native American contributions to this nation for the past five centuries such as the foundation of the U.S. Constitution that was based upon the government of the Iroquois Confederacy of Nations

http://members.aol.com/miketben1/influence3.htm

... The most solid evidence Weatherford cites for the Iroquois influence upon our federated system of democracies are the speeches, writings, and connections of Benjamin Franklin. Franklin was a printer by trade, and had been hired as the official printer for the State of Pennsylvania, a job that included printing documents of the Iroquois League of Nations. Beginning with this connection, Franklin learned of the federated democratic structure of these Indians, and he repeatedly advocated their form of government to the leaders of the American Colonies. These leaders, including Thomas Jefferson, adopted many of the practices of the Indian democracies, including the ability to recall an elected official, the prohibition of military leaders also serving in public office, giving individual states rights to govern themselves internally, and prohibiting one group from shouting down another by allowing only one person to speak at a time during official proceedings

http://www.revjm.com/Gifts%20of%20the%20Indians.htm

http://tuscaroras.com/graydeer/influenc/page1.htm
http://www.kahonwes.com/iroquois/document1.html
http://www.freeamerica.com/RelAndHist/relhist2.html
http://www.championtrees.org/yarrow/ecodemo.htm etc.

[MarkG]

there are not going to be any additions of flags

thank you and good night