How dey do dat?

dac · August 23, 2002, 20:27

Rather than scream "AI Cheat", which granted, gets a lot of attention, I'll merely express that I'm at a loss to understand this example of what I think is AI tech whoring.

I'm playing on Monarch, I'm Chinese, sharing a continent with the French and the Aztecs. Next to me is a continent that is empty

and next to that is the Japanese. I got to map making first, and pretty much settled the empty continent. The French and I wipe out the Aztecs.

I can tell, though, from the Wonder completion messages, that the other 4 civilizations are progressing much more quickly than the 3 of us are. So I'm racing for Astronomy, hoping to contact them. Joan beats me, and builds a Caravel first. She then makes contact, and, as best I can tell, spending almost no money, all of a sudden has contact with all 4 other civilizations, and is chock full of techs I don't have. Perpetually broke Japan has few techs as well. However, neither of them are willing to sell me anything, even though I can pay more than 190 gpt. (They both seem to hate gpt deals). So, how is it that the AI can seem to get techs so cheaply, yet be so unwilling to sell them to me????

I've attached a zip file with the turn before the French make contact (talk to Joan and Tokagawa, that's all I have to base my assumptions on the tech level on), and notice the French Caravel on the far right side of the map. Then, either play the turn, or load the next turn (also included in the zip) and see that Japan has techs they didn't have, and contact with everybody, and Joan has almost jumped through the entire medival age, and has contact with everybody, and neither of them will sell me anything.

Any thoughts?

WarpStorm · August 23, 2002, 20:40

Why should they sell tech to you? What do you have to offer? It sounds like they have techs, world maps, and full contact. What are you bringing to the table that they want?

dac · August 23, 2002, 20:46

Well, my question is, what did the french and japanese have that the other, more advanced and richer nations have? And, if the AIs will sell techs and communications for a pittance, why won't they sell them to me for a pittance?

Demerzel · August 23, 2002, 21:20

they were AI. you were not. isn't that enough?

annoying isn't it? try it on emperor and it's doubly so.

Jaybe · August 23, 2002, 21:36

Territory Maps, World Maps, Techs, Contacts which can lead to maps or techs.

You gotta remember that they consider techs to be worth about 140 percent its cost at REGENT (which I am familiar with, because I lowered it to 120). Monarch is probably 160; check it out in the editor.

Go researching down a tech tree that no one else is doing. That has been mentioned in other threads; but then you have to try to sell it.

Coracle · August 23, 2002, 21:59

Quote:

Originally posted by Demerzel
they were AI. you were not. isn't that enough?

annoying isn't it? try it on emperor and it's doubly so.

In otherwords, the game's title really should be "It's You Against the World".

vondrack · August 24, 2002, 03:34

dac,

I have done this myself several times (on Regent, that is, but the difficulty level is of little importance here). As a mater of fact, it is my favourite tactics (and the reason why I value the Great Lighthouse more than most other players around here). If you beat your neighbours to discovering "the other" continent on a continental map, you are likely to greatly catch up on techs. Your Maps, Communications, and even some techs not researched over the Big Pool will be of great value to the civs you discover.

Joan probably traded communications with you (you seem to be pretty strong, so a contact with you is of great value to the overseas civs) and Japan for a handful of techs/comms/maps. It may be (although now I am guessing a bit) that she did not trade to the fullest extent and a smaller part of the cake was left for the Japanese (doing the same with civs that gained a contact with them through the deal with Joan).

My experience shows that the impact on your current position (tech-wise) can be such that prior to discovering the other landmass, you are hopelessly behind (say, 6-8 techs) and after the discovery, you are on par or almost on par (1-2 techs behind) with the current technology leader.

The fact that Joan/Tokugawa don't want to sell you what they acquired is simple. They value the techs more than you can offer (as you have money only, it is highly possible). Just BTW... if you were them, you would also not trade anything in order to keep them tech-behind. Sometimes I have that sick feeling that the AIs understand this principle...

P.S.: Thank you for not using the word "cheat"!

dworkin · August 24, 2002, 11:46

Is victory in battles a factor? I've noticed that if I manage to squish an neighbour or even just smack them round everyone is nicer to you.

A case of when the other diplomat says "You and what army" you just casually guesture at the hill with all the nutters on it.

Zachriel · August 24, 2002, 13:23

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack
I have done this myself several times (on Regent, that is, but the difficulty level is of little importance here).

dac, I agree with vondrack. Here is an example from an Emperor level game, but with a twist.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm9/ad0170-Exploration.htm

Ironikinit · August 24, 2002, 13:24

Is Joan hostile? Did you break peace agreements and do you have a bad reputation? France is usually a reasonable trading partner.

You can tell if you have a bad reputation if other civs refuse right of passage.

One thing I find useful to research if I'm isolated is democracy. The AI doesn't seem to go for it, yet is willing to pay for it. Plus, since I'm isolated I don't have to worry too much about war.

Maybe if France won't sell tech you can buy communications?

The AI gets better deals IMO, but it's still possible to make good trades.

Zachriel · August 24, 2002, 13:30

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack
(and the reason why I value the Great Lighthouse more than most other players around here).

Good point!

I often build the Great Lighthouse, especially on large, wet maps. On the other hand, sometimes a few intrepid galleys are cheaper.

Thrawn05 · August 24, 2002, 13:36

Quote:

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Is Joan hostile? Did you break peace agreements and do you have a bad reputation? France is usually a reasonable trading partner.

You can tell if you have a bad reputation if other civs refuse right of passage.

The advisor will also state if that civ is a "liar and a cheat".

Catt · August 24, 2002, 23:55

I haven't downloaded your game to have a look, but I'll chime in with vondrack and Zachriel. In situations where I am the first to make contact with an isolated continent, it seems I can often collect a tech or two from each of the 3 or 4 newly discovered civs - just for trading my world map and communications with my "local" civs (if I choose to do this

) - make sure all these trades happen in the same turn! I've gone from situations where I was reseraching Engineering or Invention all the way up to Magnetism / Navigation in one turn just by finally being able to make use of the Great Lighthouse (building it and then finding that one or two possible sea routes to the new world) - Sounds like Joan didn;t have to jump quite that far if she made the discovery after Astronomy rather than through the power of the Great Lighthouse.

Could be something different in your game, but I've seen the same thing benefitting me in my games.

Catt