$mini-game debate : how to balance supply and demand - Page 2

Epistax · August 27, 2002, 12:06

I don't have a problem with commodities being unbalanced. There will never be as many shields as any other of the three basic types, therefore shields should be worth the most since they are always in demand-- they'll take whatever you can serve. Perhaps the real money comes from combining shields and food / commerce into OTHER products *hint hint*. Perhaps raw materials aren't worth as much as they could be *hint hint*.

*hint hint*

GhengisFarb™ · August 27, 2002, 12:37

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Epistax
I don't have a problem with commodities being unbalanced. There will never be as many shields as any other of the three basic types, therefore shields should be worth the most since they are always in demand-- they'll take whatever you can serve. Perhaps the real money comes from combining shields and food / commerce into OTHER products *hint hint*. Perhaps raw materials aren't worth as much as they could be *hint hint*.
{/QUOTE]
That's true and then we could value the lands around Ubergorsk and Paris higher. They have a significantly less chance to be improved than grasslands and makes speculation more risky, albeit far more profitable when your right.

I wonder how much that mined iron by Ubergorsk will go for in auction?

If someone could check the save game and give me the numbers on how many shields to completion the projects are in each of the Four Core cities (and Orleans) are I'll see what the numbers look like.

Is everyone okay with testing the PopxPer Capita Income for Commerce Demand? Currently, I want to use a Base Rate of $50 instead of $100 for it which should bring in a final price around $67 each.

Oh, and the reason *hint hint* I didn't divide up commerce into tile specific goods is because we need to come up with ideas for creating finished goods of higher value. Any suggeestions *hint hint*

Shield Concepts (An ongoing series)
TIMBER(Shields from Forest) +5% to final sale price for:
each wooden ship built or upgraded to
each granary built
each marketplace built
each harbor built

BRICKS(Shields from Grassland/Plains) +5% to final sale price for:
each barracks built
each granary built
each temple built
each marketplace built
each library built
each aqueduct built

STONE(Shields from Mountains) +5% to final sale price for
each road built (gravel)
each Palace built
each barracks built
each temple built
each marketplace built
each library built
each courthouse built
each walls built
each colosseum built
each aqueduct built

(This only applies to events that happened within our Market Area, during the last set of turns played in the game. I think in the last set the only advantage would be Stone +5% because of a road.)

UnOrthOdOx · August 27, 2002, 13:07

I am not saying they shouldn't be the most valuable, but a difference in food going for $60, commerce for $70 and Shields for $200 needs to be looked at. They should be SOMEWHAT close. There shouldn't be a huge difference like that. People assessed their lands based on the old formula. Any such drastic change in the rules makes that assessment invalid. It also makes the original prices paid for the land invalid. Basing shields on what is being produced pretty much gaurantees a $ over 100. Sometimes WAY over, sometimes a bit below, but averaging over 100. That will unbalance the game.

I don't follow this thing much, but would you both happen to produce shields? Would you feel that they should be so valuable if you did not?

Epistax · August 27, 2002, 13:29

I produce 2 food and 1 commerce

What I am saying is combine things.
Say 1 Shield + 1 Food with a mill = Bread.
1 Shield + 1 Food + 1 Commerce = wonderbread.

Maybe we should have done the land grabbing differently. Maybe each square should have a mine (shields) a plantation (food) and a market (commerce), and you buy each one individually, with mines being much more.

Any thoughts on this area of .. thought? This way one person might own many plantations, and another might own one mine. They need to work together to get anything worth a lot, or someone needs a linear monopoly (owns food AND shields) to produce goods.

Raw materials simply shouldn't be worth a lot.

Epistax · August 27, 2002, 14:22

I am posting this msg because my last one didn't bump the thread or update the last-sent.

GhengisFarb™ · August 27, 2002, 14:44

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I am not saying they shouldn't be the most valuable, but a difference in food going for $60, commerce for $70 and Shields for $200 needs to be looked at. They should be SOMEWHAT close. There shouldn't be a huge difference like that. People assessed their lands based on the old formula. Any such drastic change in the rules makes that assessment invalid. It also makes the original prices paid for the land invalid. Basing shields on what is being produced pretty much gaurantees a $ over 100. Sometimes WAY over, sometimes a bit below, but averaging over 100. That will unbalance the game.

I don't follow this thing much, but would you both happen to produce shields? Would you feel that they should be so valuable if you did not?

I produce 1 shield, Epistax produces none, AND I'm agreeing with you. I just looked at the game and tried this:
I went to each city and used the shields it still needed to complete what it was working on as the demand. I used the shields already applied and the shield produced by the city tile as the supply. Here's what I came up with:

Termina (D:S 30/7 = $428)
Apolyton (D:S 20/1 = $2000) *I'm selling here.

Tassagrad (D:S 20/5 = $400)
Termina (D:S 20/15 = $133) *Everyone else gets to sell here.

How about this the Population X Per Capita Income is the amount the citizens have to sell. We can clump shields and commerce together as General Goods and have that separate from Food. So basically we'd have two markets. If you don't produce shields but need them you could flood the market with commerce to lower the price so you could buy shields cheaper. Basically, the citizens have to decide what they want to spend their money on, dishes(commerce) or plywood(shields) to fix the roof. Shields will still get a bonus as mentioned befor based on what was built in the previous game session. And Finished Goods (ones that require buildings/labor) will get % bonuses to final sale price.

Current GOODS Market would be (D:S 39((2+4+4+3)*3)/9(1+1+1+1+3+1+1+2) =$433)

Or around $81 if we sold the maximum 39 units (we currently produce 16 shields and 21 commerce (37 total) with 26 shields and commerce stockpiled)

I could live with that system. Some finished goods would consume 2-3 raw goods to produce one finished good thus leaving room for more demand and many shields will be consumed in building projects. It also puts the shield and commerce producers competing against each other instead of holding one set aloof.

Epistax · August 27, 2002, 15:30

I do believe I said proportional, not equal to.

maybe demand is the square root of the total shields in the building. maybe the square root of the shields LEFT in the building. Maybe some sort of kinky ratio involving things.

(square root is a good example because it always increases gradually)

GhengisFarb™ · August 27, 2002, 16:29

Alternative 2
Markets are City Specific

The ratios above are percentages ($2000 in Apolyton is really 20) and those numbers represent a bonus to final sale price of shields in those cities.

Apolyton has a population of 4 therefore (D:S 12(4x3)/4(1+3) = $300) the shield ratio computed as above gives the result of 20 (based on the fact this it is far from being done building what it needs) any shields sold in the Apolyton demand market get a 20% bonus to final sale price as that market needs lots of shields to complete its current project.

Also, people will be wanting shields to build things. Epistax may need bricks to build a Smokehouse, he therefore offers DS + $10 for 1 Bricks. Captain is the first person to see the offer and agrees to supply 1 bricks for DS + $10 to Epistax.

Okay that last paragraph was complicated I'm not sure we want to go there...........

BUILDING IDEAS (REVISED)
ESTATE-Must specify tile you are building on.
SILO (6 Shield/Labor) Allows you store up to 20 food items.

STOREHOUSE (6 Shield/Labor) Allows you to store an additional 10 non-food items.

CITY-Must specify City you are building in.
SHOPPE (10 Shield/Labor) Allows you to sell commerce at a 50% bonus to final sale price in a specific city. (can sell up to population of city, Example if you own a Shoppe in a size 4 city the first 4 commerce you sell in that city per turn receive a 50% bonus)

WORKSHOP (15 Shield/Labor) Allows you to sell shields at a 50% bonus to final sale price in a specific city. (can sell up to population of city, Example if you own a Workshop in a size 4 city the first 4 shields you sell in that city per turn receive a 50% bonus)

TAVERN (15 Shield/Labor) Allows you to sell food and/or beer at a 50% bonus to final sale price in a specific city. (can sell up to population of city, Example if you own a Workshop in a size 4 city the first 4 food and/or beer you sell in that city per turn receive a 50% bonus)

BAKERY (cost: 20 shields/labor) converts 1 grain into 1 bread (food) which sells at a 50% Bonus to final sale price in a specific city. (can sell up to population of city, Example if you own a Bakery in a size 4 city you can convert up to 4 grain that you sell in that city into bread at 50% of the final sale price)

Bread can not be stored.

BREWERY (cost: 20 shields/labor) converts 2 grain AND 2 commerce into 2 beer (food) per labor unit used (1 grain and 1 commerce convert to 1 beer, 1 labor can make up to 2 beer, 2 labor can make up to 4 beer) which sells at a 150% Bonus to final sale price in a specific city.
Beer CAN be stored.

GhengisFarb™ · August 28, 2002, 12:35

Looking for other ideas on finished products.

SMOKEHOUSE turns venison(food) into Jerky(food/commerce)

Possibly some way to make cider (Banana Cider) out of Bananas?

Maybe viewing commerce from a tile with the Horse resource as Horses (Could be used as Labor but doesn't require you to feed like the other Labor, it just subsists off of your land)?

Commerce from Forests could be Leather (hides from deer) and convert them into shoes?

GhengisFarb™ · September 24, 2002, 12:49

Latest idea for buildings (Printing Press is right around the corner)

PAPER MILL {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
Requires tile to have river access.

Allows up to 4 labor to convert 1 shield into 2 paper per labor. Paper sells on the commerce market.

BINDERY {city or estate} (Costs 3 shields/labor)
Representing scribes before the printing press

Allows up to 4 labor to convert 1 paper into 1 book (or 2 pamphlets) per labor. Books and Pamphlets sell in the commerce market with the Literature subDemand. Books sell at 150% D/S and Pamphlets sell at 75% of D/S.

Printer {city or estate} (Costs 5 shields/labor)
A Binder can be upgraded after the discovery of the Printing Press for 2 shields/labor.

A Printer basically doubles what a labor can do versus a Bindery.

Allows up to 4 labor to convert 2 paper into 2 books (or 4 pamphlets) per labor. Books and Pamphlets sell in the commerce with the Literature subDemand.

Literature subDemand is equal to the market's pop x the literacy rate with an additional +1 added for each library and university in the market. As long as the subDemand is not met, all "literature" products sell at a 50% bonus.

=OttomusCeasar= · September 24, 2002, 14:13

Sounds good, I can see "publishing empires" now, who will be the first Apolotonian Hugh Hefner?

UnOrthOdOx · September 24, 2002, 14:58

Sure. Here we are finally getting around to paper products and do you think the Gazette gets any respect? NO!!

Slave away for 2000 years, and this is how they pay you back...I tell you, the next headline just may read STRIKE!!!

Mumble...Mumble...I mean how hard would it be...Gazette press instead of Paper Mill....Mumble...Mumble...I mean, we DID invent pressing Banana leaves a LONG time ago...Mumble...mumble...Note to self, next game copywrite the process...Ill show them printing press...

/me storms out of the room.

=OttomusCeasar= · September 24, 2002, 15:06

Maybe we could work out a deal where UnOrthOdOx gets a Paper Mill already in appreciation for his work on the gazette. Or a Bindery or something.

UnOrthOdOx · September 24, 2002, 15:34

NOW THEY SPEAK AS IF I AM IN NEED OF SOME KIND OF CHARITY ACT!!!

This is an Outrage!!!

=OttomusCeasar= · September 24, 2002, 15:43

Maybe we should just drop the whole printing/paper idea.

UnOrthOdOx · September 24, 2002, 16:42

WHAT, NOW IT DOESNT EVEN DESERVE TO BECOME A PART OF THE MINI GAME??!!!?! I CANT ACTUALLY BE PAID, IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?!?!?!?!

GhengisFarb™ · September 24, 2002, 17:18

Quote:

Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar=

Maybe we should just drop the whole printing/paper idea.

Perhaps so.......

UnOrthOdOx · September 25, 2002, 10:07

just in case no one has caught on, I am just having some fun here. I am actually for the buildings

=OttomusCeasar= · September 25, 2002, 10:09

Quote:

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
just in case no one has caught on, I am just having some fun here. I am actually for the buildings

That's just the fever talking.