WWII wonders - Page 2

Case · August 27, 2002, 03:45

Quote:

Originally posted by techumseh
Re: the bushwhacking of the American Fleet, I read an article somewhere that suggested that if Pearl Harbour had not occurred, the American defeat may have been WORSE. The theory is that if the Japanese had only attacked the Philippines, the American fleet would have sortied out into the Pacific to defend it. Somewhere it would have been intercepted by the Japanese carriers. The old and slow American battleships and the obsolete American carrier aircraft would have been no match for the Japanese planes, resulting in the TOTAL destruction of the American Pacific Fleet, carriers and all. I dunno if that's what would have happened, but it's an interesting speculation.

Yeah, I've read that as well. Basically, the American strategy was to form the entire Pacific Fleet up into one huge convoy and then crawl across the Pacific to relieve the Philipines. IMO the Japanese would have had a field day against such a target.

Mao · August 27, 2002, 08:38

Of course, that only now means the American player won't be dumb enough to do that...

Heresson · August 27, 2002, 09:12

A forg is a frog on a fork of a Frenchman, You ignorants!

St Leo · August 27, 2002, 14:51

Please stop making fun of the Frogs.

techumseh · August 27, 2002, 16:33

Enough of that.

I found some background on Japanese scientific research before and during the war. The RIKEN Foundation was established to promote research into the physical sciences in the 1920s. Its' work no doubt had significant military application, since McArthur shut it down after the war.

I'm going with Pavlov's idea for the British trade wonder. I think I'll call it "East-India Docks" for the London docks where Imperial trade came and went.

Thoddy's right about the triggers for wonders. You can toggle them off and on merely by giving and taking the tech which renders them obsolete. To get the benefits of Imperial trade, Britain must maintain a link to India.

Boco · August 27, 2002, 19:37

Among other things, RIKEN is a now big name in current genomics research. I think the name was resurrected in the 50's.

The main aim of the Japanese military was to establish a hard shell for their Asian empire, then negotiate for peace. Although they underestimated US production potential, they knew it was much greater than their own. So, even if the 1941 US fleet ended up at the bottom of the ocean after a doomed plan Orange sortie, eventually, US production would force the Japanese to go on the defensive. Question is, can the Japanese player make it too costly for the US player to retake the Pacific?

I like that you're aiming for that kind of tension using the Civ2 engine. Might almost make me try MP!

How are you going to handle nukes?

MagyarCrusader · August 27, 2002, 19:53

Quote:

How are you going to handle nukes?

Leave nukes out of this one.

techumseh · August 27, 2002, 20:59

Quote:

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader

Leave nukes out of this one.

Sorry, MJ. They were a big part of this war, or rather, the ending of it. So I can't just leave them out. I think I'll limit nuclear bomb research to just the US and Germany, however. And place it FAR down the tech tree, so that someone will have to do very well indeed just to get the research done. Then the Manhattan Project, and so on. Delivery will be by a one way bomber (missile) unit that looks like a B-29.

Case · August 28, 2002, 02:01

*mutters about Britain, Japan and the USSR all having nuclear weapons programs in WW2*

MagyarCrusader · August 28, 2002, 03:26

Just keep in mind that when someone can build a unit with 99 attack, the game is over.

techumseh · August 28, 2002, 03:55

Quote:

Originally posted by MagyarCrusader
Just keep in mind that when someone can build a unit with 99 attack, the game is over.

Exactly. Pretty historical, oui?

techumseh · August 28, 2002, 03:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Case
*mutters about Britain, Japan and the USSR all having nuclear weapons programs in WW2*

How far advanced were the various programs?

Case · August 28, 2002, 06:27

Quote:

How far advanced were the various programs?

The Brits had gotten a long way before they ran out of money and handed their experts and expertise over to the Americans

The Japanese were muddling along towards a bomb, but weren't really close to getting it in 1945.

The Soviets were also making fair progress and had lots of good scientists, but the nuclear program had to be put on the backburner due to the more pressing need to produce conventional military equipment.

As a result, I think that all nations should have access to nuclear weapons.

Heresson · August 28, 2002, 06:36

"Soviet scientists" = spies.

The ANZAC · August 28, 2002, 10:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Heresson
"Soviet scientists" = spies.

Yeah that is true!

Heresson · August 28, 2002, 10:30

I'm always right

When it comes to ww2 wonders, perhaps You could use
Enigma's sollution and Anti-fog machines for the Brits...
(don't forget that Poles stood behind it, though

)

techumseh · August 28, 2002, 12:00

What do people think about including spies in a multiplayer scenario? It's possible to edit the Game text to eliminate problem commands such as 'bribe'. I was considering including a spy unit that was limited to 'investigate city' and 'industrial sabotage'.

What about 'steal technology'? Will that screw up the whole game? BTW, it is also possible to force the spy to specify which technology is being sought, by dropping the 'no, any will do' line from the Game text file. It should prevent "trolling" for any unowned technology.

(edit) After actually testing this idea, I find it doesn't work after all. Also, I thought civ specific techs in ToT were protected from being stolen, but they're not. So stealing techs is out. Is it worth it to have a spy that can only recon a city or do industrial sabotage?

Grothgar · August 28, 2002, 14:43

Industrial Sabotage could be useful, City walls, which i assume are making Anti Tank defenses with infantry able to get past them, well if you got rid of them the city would be ripe for plunder, and also getting rid of scientific building could be useful.

And i think everyone should be able to build atomic bombs.

The British atomic program, although still quite classified to this day

was by all reports rather far along but its like the soviets program, the fact that money had to be made available for the building of tanks, aeroplanes etc so they eventually packed it in and as case said shipped them over to the Yanks.

The Japanese were very soild on the theory on the bomb but they just couldnt really figure out the practical problems, but if they had they might have progressed quite quickly towards their goal.

The Soviets were about the same as the brits and the japs, very good theory but they didnt know how to procede with actually making a pile and stopping it from going critical, their spies stole that method from the americans

And yes they didnt have enough funding.

Also one of the reasons why the Germans didnt make the Bomb first was that the british kept bombing them and their commandos kept sabotaging as many of their research centers as they possibly could, of course the other reason why is because they shot or deported a lot of their best scientists because they were jews, or other "undesiribles" But still they had Heissenburg, and he was pretty good

Heresson · August 28, 2002, 14:47

It is. Always some more possibilities, and it's more correct.

Heresson · August 28, 2002, 14:52

Even if Germans or Japaneese should have a possibility of building nukes, they should be a few techs behind at least
or whatever that would make it much harder for them to obtain the discussed ability.

Boco · August 28, 2002, 15:00

Nukes oughta be very pricey. I'm pretty sure that the US was hardpressed to make just a few. Anyone know if there was a third one ready after Nagasaki? IIRC, there was some fear that Japan wouldn't surrender quickly even after two.

Grothgar · August 28, 2002, 15:09

While i agree that the Japanese should start a few techs behind on the nuclear path i dont think the germans should, at the start of the war they were at the same point as everyone else, just starting to see if they could turn the atom into a really big weapon

Also maybe the Soviets should start a few techs behind but not as bad as the japs.

Heresson · August 28, 2002, 15:43

I think that that would ruin the game. Germans, as having a war on both sides, would have to be extremly strong anyway, now that they could get nukes they would smash
everyone.

The ANZAC · August 28, 2002, 16:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Grothgar
But still they had Heissenburg, and he was pretty good

I actually heard somewhere that Heisenberg might have sabotaged the German projewct himself to prevent them from ever developing the Bomb

St Leo · August 28, 2002, 16:57

Did the Germans have all the raw materials required for the manufacture of a nuke? You need more than just spare Plutonium/Uranium to make a nuke.

Grothgar · August 28, 2002, 17:09

Yes i think the germans did actually have access to all the materials needed, maybe not the best materials needed but enough you jerry rig it together, although it probably wouldnt have been able to be delivered by air, it would have been too big for any german bombers to deliver.

And ANZAC, while i havent heard that Heissenburg sabotaged the research etc i actually heard that he didnt think that an atomic bomb was a feasable possibility which is why he sandbagged in his research, he didnt do it because he didnt want germany to have the bomb, he did it because he didnt think a bomb could be built and thus it was a waste of money.

Heresson, while what you say makes sense, it does so only in the context of a Single Player game, in a multiplayer game its, obviously

, humans which are playing and thus it will be harder for germany to reach the position it was in real life, i mean check out the TSFE PBEM thread to see what human players can do to a timeline.

Heresson · August 28, 2002, 17:50

You should force people by scn rules to go about the path of true history unless they really try.

techumseh · August 28, 2002, 18:35

Heisenberg wasn't sure a bomb could be built? Was he uncertain on principle?

OK, nuclear reseach will be open to all, but unlikely to be reached by all but he most advanced nation before the end of the game. I'm thinking about ways to make it very difficult and expensive. One idea is to require each nation to build a very expensive improvement (say a Recycling Centre with a huge price tag) before getting the final tech allowing construction of nukes. This would be in addition to someone first building the Manhattan Project. I could use the CityProduction trigger and provide the tech by events, perhaps with a built in delay. Comments?

Mao · August 28, 2002, 19:08

hmmm...I might just try to get ToT for this...

Boco, IIRC the US had one more bomb after Nagasaki. They had three originally, and then made another one. One was tested, two were sent to Japan, and one was left in the US. Of course, this is all going by what I remember from the forums so don't quote me verbatim...

Case · August 28, 2002, 19:16

Quote:

"Soviet scientists" = spies.

Not true. The soviets had some excelent physicists working for them. Of course, the Soviet government's method of motivating them (locking them up in a gulag and threatening to shoot them) left a lot to be desired.

Quote:

Nukes oughta be very pricey. I'm pretty sure that the US was hardpressed to make just a few. Anyone know if there was a third one ready after Nagasaki? IIRC, there was some fear that Japan wouldn't surrender quickly even after two.

I agree. From memory, the US didn't have, and couldn't have produced, another nuke for 6 months after Nagasaki.

Quote:

although it probably wouldnt have been able to be delivered by air, it would have been too big for any german bombers to deliver.

The Germans specially modified some of their He-177/277 bombers to carry atomic weapons.