August 29, 2002, 23:33
|
#31
|
Emperor
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by jimmytrick
All of the anit-American crap I am seeing here, including some from Americans makes me glad that I will die some day and not be here to witness the little intellectual integrity and moral timber left in the world slide into the abyss.
America spent the first half of the last century fighting to save Europe from German oppression and the last half holding back the Soviet iron curtain. Now we want to attack terror at its root and few if any posters here credit America as being any better than the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet Communists.
Who was willing to fight communism in Asia. We did. Badly, but we did it to prevent the world from being overun with communist evil that would have stripped from every corner of the world every last vestige of freedom and dignity.
And, setting aside the respect and thanks that we are due, the posters here have no sense of history.
I have lived long enough to understand why we must have these regular and horric wars. People are of bad moral character.
|
What about our "Good Neighbor" policy towards Latin American countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, in which the United States sought to impose dictatorships in some of those countries through convert operations and outright interventions?
What about how the United States government did not aggressively begin to abolish segregation until the combined pressures from organized grassroots protests within our country, and from our shameful international image during the Cold War as a hypocritical power for freedom?
What about how we became an imperial power over the Phillipines, Puerto Rico, and Cuba, after the Spanish-American War, instead of liberating those three countries?
What about how we stole the property of loyal American citizens whose ancestry was Japanese, and forcing them to live in desert camps during World War II?
What about the quasi-legal institution of lynching of blacks during the nadir of race relations of 1880's through the 1930's?
What about how we refuse to intervene to stop crimes against humanity in today's world, unless we have compelling economic interest to do so?
Is the United States the only country to have carried out such shameful policies? No -- every country in the world has a dark side to their history, along with a light side to their history.
The United States is one of the handful of countries where it has a lot of potential to be a force for liberty with equality in the world, but so far, our leaders have repeatedly fail to effectively, and consistently embrace that ideal.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:40
|
#32
|
King
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
|
Well stated fun, it should be remebered that the founding fathers never intended for this to be a philanthropist nation of liberty, equality and fraternity for all it's inhabitants. This was to be a nation for liberty, equality, etc. for a small number of land owning elite white males. Women, poor whites, blacks, and native americans weren't even considered human beings in this grand vision of the much celebrated founding fathers.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:44
|
#33
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
|
It really sucks how it all worked out, eh?
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:45
|
#34
|
Emperor
Local Time: 07:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Posts: 4,620
|
White women were certainly considered human, the Founders just believed that their role was in the home and to be subservient to their husbands in all things.
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:47
|
#35
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
|
What a revolutionary thought that was.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:49
|
#36
|
Emperor
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by monkspider
Well stated fun, it should be remebered that the founding fathers never intended for this to be a philanthropist nation of liberty, equality and fraternity for all it's inhabitants. This was to be a nation for liberty, equality, etc. for a small number of land owning elite white males. Women, poor whites, blacks, and native americans weren't even considered human beings in this grand vision of the much celebrated founding fathers.
|
I only partially agree with you Mr. Commie.
At the end of the American Revolutionary War, the 3% of the soldiers who were black slaves, were granted their freedom in many cases.
Poor whites were giving the enfranchisement in the 1830's during the Jacksonian era.
White women were activists in the areas of temperance, women's suffrage, abolition, and peace movements -- they were not exactly locked up in their homes during the 19th century.
As for blacks and Amerindians, in most cases, that is where your statement of being seen less than human is closer to how certain groups of people were perceived.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:49
|
#37
|
King
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
|
Floyd - I agree It's unreasonable to blame the founding father's for not being outspoken feminsts, but women were nonetheless excluded from their declarions of liberty and equality. That said, Women were much better off than minorities though, for simple reasons of necessity.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:51
|
#38
|
Emperor
Local Time: 07:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Posts: 4,620
|
Oh certainly, I'm just saying the were seen as just as human as men were, their roles were just defined differently in those days. Most women back then would have agreed with this
Not that it's a good thing, of course, but ultra-feminism is no better.
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:53
|
#39
|
King
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by David Floyd
Not that it's a good thing, of course, but ultra-feminism is no better.
|
Now that I agree with you 100% on.
I do cherish these moments of agreement with you David, it always gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling about humanity.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:56
|
#40
|
Emperor
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
|
Guys -- read my last post.
Women were definitely active in the public sphere of 19th century America.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
|
|
|
|
August 29, 2002, 23:58
|
#41
|
King
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
|
I agree that they were active Fun, so were slaves. There were a lot of planned and actual slave revolts. As well as more subtle disobediences as well (such as refusing to work very hard, or running away, etc). But being active didn't do either of these groups much good for a long time.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 00:01
|
#42
|
Emperor
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 8,595
|
But I think your exaggeration might have misled me to believe that you perceived that white women had no public opportunities to advocate their interests.
__________________
STFU and then GTFO!
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 00:07
|
#43
|
King
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Wichita
Posts: 1,352
|
Ah, I appologize, what I meant was that while the declaration of independence preached liberty and equality for all. It was unthinkable that women would actually be considered part of the "all". Despite this, they did do well to influence public policy on a number of things, just as you mentioned.
Sojurner Truth is a great example, she helped free a lot of slaves, and spoke often on the subject of aboltion. She was not only a woman but also an african-american! So she had the odds exponentially stacked against her.
__________________
http://monkspider.blogspot.com/
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 02:58
|
#44
|
King
Local Time: 00:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Posts: 1,417
|
Quote:
|
Originally posted by monkspider
Well stated fun, it should be remebered that the founding fathers never intended for this to be a philanthropist nation of liberty, equality and fraternity for all it's inhabitants. This was to be a nation for liberty, equality, etc. for a small number of land owning elite white males. Women, poor whites, blacks, and native americans weren't even considered human beings in this grand vision of the much celebrated founding fathers.
|
Boy, you women really know how to hold onto a grudge!
__________________
He's got the Midas touch.
But he touched it too much!
Hey Goldmember, Hey Goldmember!
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 03:00
|
#45
|
Deity
Local Time: 00:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
|
I believe americans are responsible for every case of cancer and heart disease since 1948. for this alone they should be banished from the face of the earth.
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 03:03
|
#46
|
Emperor
Local Time: 02:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Canada where else...
Posts: 4,178
|
Can anyone remember a war the Americans started?
They why?
Then did they really start it?
And Why?
Start there....
__________________
“The Communist Manifesto was correct…but…we see the privileges of the capitalist bourgeoisie yielding…to democratic organizations…In my judgment…success lies in a steady [peaceful] advance…[rather]…than in…a catastrophic crash."Eduard Bernstein
Or do we?
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 03:13
|
#47
|
Deity
Local Time: 00:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 17,354
|
gulf war- we didn't really need to attack Iraq after all. They took over the country therefore they deserve it.
__________________
Focus, discipline
Barack Obama- the antichrist
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 03:32
|
#48
|
Apolyton CS Co-Founder
Local Time: 09:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Macedonia, Greece
Posts: 24,480
|
i'm surprised has given any points to this troll yet
0.1/10
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 03:37
|
#49
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
|
Who? jt, or Diss?
I'm enjoying not wanting to rip jt's throat out for once.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 03:45
|
#50
|
Apolyton CS Co-Founder
Local Time: 09:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Macedonia, Greece
Posts: 24,480
|
jt of course
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 03:51
|
#51
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
|
There isn't an anti-American preponderance in Poly's OT?
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 04:10
|
#52
|
Apolyton CS Co-Founder
Local Time: 09:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Macedonia, Greece
Posts: 24,480
|
i wouldnt be that positive to such a statement
still, that doesnt change the intentions of jimmy's post....
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 04:36
|
#53
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
|
Sauce for the goose...
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 07:08
|
#54
|
Warlord
Local Time: 08:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: N/A
Posts: 237
|
Re: sad thoughts on poly posters
Quote:
|
Originally posted by jimmytrick
America spent the first half of the last century fighting to save Europe from German oppression
|
Saved us? We fought the Nazis from 1939. You guys only joined in fully after you were attacked on your own soil, late 1941. What took you so long?
I know the Hollywood movies portrayed WW2 as a war btw the USA and Germany. The role of other countries are played down. I guess the Americans would like to feel they did all the work and had to help us helpless Eurotrash - I'm sure it makes you feel good...
Don't let Hollywood movies be your only history reference...
BTW, some German rocket scientists were welcomed in America. How could you let these Nazis go free and live in your country?
Quote:
|
and the last half holding back the Soviet iron curtain.
|
Nice try... Too bad you didn't succeed.
Quote:
|
Now we want to attack terror at its root and few if any posters here credit America as being any better than the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet Communists.
|
Europe supports the war on terror.
Quote:
|
Who was willing to fight communism in Asia. We did. Badly, but we did it to prevent the world from being overun with communist evil that would have stripped from every corner of the world every last vestige of freedom and dignity.
|
You fought communism in Vietnam, but did not succeed. Couldn't you have tried a less bloody way?
Quote:
|
And, setting aside the respect and thanks that we are due, the posters here have no sense of history.
|
You are due to some respect and thanks of course. We should expect some moral fiber from the superpower.
One ex.: the Marshall plan.
As far as wartime history goes it is more questionable...
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 07:15
|
#55
|
King
Local Time: 03:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Everybody writes a book too many.
Posts: 1,259
|
__________________
What?
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 14:12
|
#56
|
Deity
Local Time: 08:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: Seouenaca, Cantium
Posts: 12,426
|
They did delay the declaration by a whole week (after Britain declared war).
Australia incidentally declared war on the same day as the British.
__________________
"Everybody knows you never go full retard. You went full retard man. Never go full retard"
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 14:20
|
#57
|
Prince
Local Time: 08:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Augusta Vindelicorum
Posts: 655
|
Quote:
|
BTW, some German rocket scientists were welcomed in America. How could you let these Nazis go free and live in your country?
|
Even better: V2 was the rocket that hit London in late 1944, and V5 was the version that flew to the moon (V stands for Vergeltungswaffe, weapon for retaliation)
__________________
Why doing it the easy way if it is possible to do it complicated?
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 14:24
|
#58
|
Deity
Local Time: 01:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: of naught
Posts: 21,300
|
There was a brief debate about whether Canada had a choice. It was decided we did. But OTOH, the government didn't really have a choice, the hockey players had already left training camp.
__________________
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(") This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 14:31
|
#59
|
Prince
Local Time: 08:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Augusta Vindelicorum
Posts: 655
|
Quote:
|
America spent the first half of the last century fighting to save Europe from German oppression and the last half holding back the Soviet iron curtain.
|
Humanitarian reasons?  The USA never moved except for saving their own investments. They were one of the few countries who had an economic benefit of WWII. They invested a lot into England. Had Germany won, the investments were lost. Same with "holding back Soviets". It was a game for power and the USA need Europe as a market - not quite possible with the USSR on top. The main difference: Back then, the USA acted sensibly for their own interests. Today, they are lead by stupid warmongers.
Quote:
|
Now we want to attack terror at its root and few if any posters here credit America as being any better than the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet Communists.
|
Begging for credit is something I rightaway despise. And if the US continue as they did do the last years they are not better.
__________________
Why doing it the easy way if it is possible to do it complicated?
|
|
|
|
August 30, 2002, 14:41
|
#60
|
King
Local Time: 07:07
Local Date: November 1, 2010
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Uni of Wales Swansea
Posts: 1,262
|
If the US hadn't joined WW2. Europe would likely have fallen to the Nazis, however, the Soviets would then have 'liberated' them. The Warsaw Pact gains a few million more members and some technologically advanced nations. The US also wouldn't have gained the German scientists, the Soviet Union would have, or they would have been lost.
So America doesn't have as much technology, Western Europe (and all the important investments involved) and the Soviet Union is much, much stronger.
Something tells me America wouldn't have done so well in the Cold War if that were the case...
|
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is On
|
|
|
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:07.
|
|