Names of Civilisations in 4000BC

[TacticalGrace]

The names of civilisations, in the real world, hanve changed over time. But the game begins in 4000BC and it would be silly to name a civ based on a more modern name. For example, Persia should not be called Iran because that is a 20th Century name (as was discussed in a thread on this board recently).

Should the English be called the Britons because the term english was much more modern than that.

[Hagbart]

no

[Palaiologos]

Yes, no.

[Dauphin]

English should not be called Britons.

Albion maybe, but then people lose the relevance.

[Jethro83]

By that logic, you could call Babylon Iraq, call Rome Italy, or call Zululand South Africa.

For the same reason I don't find it appropriate to name Persia as Iran, Babylon as Iraq, Rome as Italy, Aztecs as Mexico, and Zululand as South Africa, I don't think it to be appropriate to be naming the Germans as Teutons or Goths, the English as Britons, or the French as Franks, etc.

And what about America? If such a system were implemented, what would America be called in 4000BC?

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by LordAzreal
what about America? If such a system were implemented, what would America be called in 4000BC?

Iroquois?

[Hagbart]

But what should the Iroquois then be called? We don't want 2 unknown Indian tribes in the game! One is enough.

[DarkCloud]

No, you can't do that... Mainly because the idea of Civilization is to give the nations their names when they were the GREATEST empire... That is why Persia is not Iraq and the English are not "various barbarian tribes"

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by DarkCloud
No, you can't do that... Mainly because the idea of Civilization is to give the nations their names when they were the GREATEST empire... That is why Persia is not Iraq and the English are not "various barbarian tribes"

I think you have identified the key concept. I guess historical accuracy belongs in scenarios only. or in a completely different game. not civ.

[Hagbart]

I think the English should be called 'Various barbarian tribes'.

[DarkCloud]

I guess historical accuracy belongs in scenarios only. or in a completely different game. not civ.

Yes, that is what the scenarios are for.

Civ is broad, not narrow. It is like a survey history course. It gets some things right, but get some things wrong simply by omission.

Perhaps if they implemented "progressive civ-names" that evolved with time... but then the player would lose some sense of 'control' as in beign able to make their civ whatever they wanted on a fantasy world.

[Lord Merciless]

Every civ except Egyptians were Barbarians in 4000BC.

[Ananias]

BTW, just to be clear about the English thing: The Brits were conquered by the Angles and the Saxons (the groups who became the English). They were NOT the same civilization.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Every civ except Egyptians were Barbarians in 4000BC.

Now that just isn't true. The Sumerians were building cities before them and there is evidence appearing of cities in India before that.

By 4000BC, the inhabitants of the islands of Britain had developed farming techniques and had built large hilltop enclosures (sites such as Windmill Hill, Wiltshire and Maiden Castle in Dorset). [civ:size 1 or 2 city] These 'Neolithic' people also buried their dead in long barrows in the earth. [civ:ceremonial burial]

In china the Yangshau culture was making pottery by 6000 bc. "Careful excavation revealed the tresence of 45 houses, 200 storage pits, needles, tools, arrowheads, fish hooks and six kilns. There were also 174 adult graves, 76 children's graves and 37 funerary urns. The Nelolithic people of Banpo hunted, fished, cultivated millet, cooked their food and raised pigs as domestic animals." [http://www.chinavoc.com/history/yangshao.htm]

"Size 1 City" or "barbarian hut"? whichever, they seem to have discovered pottery (perhaps they should build the hanging gardens)

The Babylonians had invented the water clock by 3500 BC. What kind of barbarians are these?

Meanwhile in the Ukraine...
Ukrainians had domesticated the horse by 4000 bc [civ:horse riding] and the oldest map discovered was in the Ukraine, dated to 10000bc! [civ:mapmaking though I guess there wasn't much galley building in the ukraine]
The Cucuteni civilization which is presently Romania and the western part of the Ukraine had cities of ten to fifteen thousand inhabitants in around 4,000 B.C. [civ:size 1 or 2 city]

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Ananias
BTW, just to be clear about the English thing: The Brits were conquered by the Angles and the Saxons (the groups who became the English). They were NOT the same civilization.

The Celts/Britons/Romans were displaced from modern day England by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.

Similar to European displacement in the US.

[Silpy]

Rome pulled it's forces out of Britain in 408 AD (I think) and most of the Roman civilians left with them or soon after.....britain was not a nice or safe place to live with anarchy on the streets, and with no wine, olives or comforts from Italia!

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace

Now that just isn't true. The Sumerians were building cities before them and there is evidence appearing of cities in India before that.

By 4000BC, the inhabitants of the islands of Britain had developed farming techniques and had built large hilltop enclosures (sites such as Windmill Hill, Wiltshire and Maiden Castle in Dorset). [civ:size 1 or 2 city] These 'Neolithic' people also buried their dead in long barrows in the earth. [civ:ceremonial burial]

In china the Yangshau culture was making pottery by 6000 bc. "Careful excavation revealed the tresence of 45 houses, 200 storage pits, needles, tools, arrowheads, fish hooks and six kilns. There were also 174 adult graves, 76 children's graves and 37 funerary urns. The Nelolithic people of Banpo hunted, fished, cultivated millet, cooked their food and raised pigs as domestic animals." [http://www.chinavoc.com/history/yangshao.htm]

"Size 1 City" or "barbarian hut"? whichever, they seem to have discovered pottery (perhaps they should build the hanging gardens)

The Babylonians had invented the water clock by 3500 BC. What kind of barbarians are these?

Meanwhile in the Ukraine...
Ukrainians had domesticated the horse by 4000 bc [civ:horse riding] and the oldest map discovered was in the Ukraine, dated to 10000bc! [civ:mapmaking though I guess there wasn't much galley building in the ukraine]
The Cucuteni civilization which is presently Romania and the western part of the Ukraine had cities of ten to fifteen thousand inhabitants in around 4,000 B.C. [civ:size 1 or 2 city]

Well, if you go by the definitions in Civ3, then there were civs in 4000BC. The ancient Brits would have Masonry, Chinese Pottery and Ceremonial Burials, and Ukranians Mapmakings.

But this: "The Nelolithic people of Banpo hunted, fished, cultivated millet, cooked their food and raised pigs as domestic animals" does not prove a civilization, not even in Civ3 terms.

Also, farming is not a criteria for civilization either.

[Palaiologos]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Every civ except Egyptians were Barbarians in 4000BC.

And the Greeks.For us all the rest were barbarians. Including the Egyptians.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Palaiologos

And the Greeks.For us all the rest were barbarians. Including the Egyptians.

Yeah, that arrogance did no good to the Greek people. First they were dominated by the Mazedons, later conquered by the Romans, and finally oppressed by the Turks. They lost all their oversea possessions and was reduced to a minor power within the EU.

Chinese had developed a similar case of arrogance in after 16th century, and they had to suffer more than 100 years of tribulations and humiliations after 1840. During the same period, they lost 1/3 of their territories and dropped to a second rate power in the world.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by LordAzreal
And what about America? If such a system were implemented, what would America be called in 4000BC?

Fu Sang

[Hagbart]

The Greeks too were 'barbarians' in 4000BC.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


Yeah, that arrogance did no good to the Greek people. ...was reduced to a minor power within the EU.

As powerful as that? They are the poorest nation in the EU (except maybe for Portugal).

[Be Quicker]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin


As powerful as that? They are the poorest nation in the EU (except maybe for Portugal).

Indeed. GNP per head in EU candidates such as Slovenia is even higher !!! but then Greece has only been out of Despotism for 25 years or so ...

[hagen]

Just one thing.

Inhabitants of a given territory in 4000 BC and nowadays are never the same. People are travelled, mixed, scattered through the history.

So in 4000 BC:
- the ones who domesticated the horse were not the Ukrainans
- the inhabitants of the British Isles were not the english (not even the britons, normanns etc.)
- most of the civs we know simply didn't existed

And what makes a civ. Domestication? Farming? I think, not really. It must have some kind of GOVERNMENT.

So the egyptians, sumerians, indians and chinese were real civilizations at that time. Settled along the great rivers [flood plains], they were the early civilizations, as taught in the school.
They differed from the people who live in those areas nowadays very much, but these names (Egypt, China)are traditional, so we use them.

Oh, that wasn't just one thing. Sorry

[Dida]

To my knowledge, China is the oldest surviving civilization.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Dida
To my knowledge, China is the oldest surviving civilization.

Still, there were no "Chinese" in 4000BC. Many civilized tribes might have existed back then, the none of them could really be defined as "Chinese".

[Dida]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless


Still, there were no "Chinese" in 4000BC. Many civilized tribes might have existed back then, the none of them could really be defined as "Chinese".

YOU ARE WRONG.
LEARN MORE ABOUT OTHER CULTURE BEFORE MAKING STATEMENTS ABOUT THEM.

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by hagen
And what makes a civ. Domestication? Farming? I think, not really. It must have some kind of GOVERNMENT.

I have a prehistoric era in my tech tree (in theory, it's not possible to implement it) where civilization starts with the discovery of The Council which allows villages to grow beyond size 1 after a Town Hall is built (Map Making and Writing are next).

Advances like Agriculture, Roads, Weaponry, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial, Bronze Working and Irrigation all take place BEFORE civilization begins.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Dida


YOU ARE WRONG.
LEARN MORE ABOUT OTHER CULTURE BEFORE MAKING STATEMENTS ABOUT THEM.

How should "Chinese" be defined then? Just because People lived in that geographic area in 4000 BC doesn't mean they were "Chinese" as we know today.

And don't get pissed if you see an idea that deviates from yours.

[Dida]

First, note that the Chinese people never call themself Chinese. Chinese and hence China are English words and have no direct connection to what the Chinese call themselves.
In the dawn of Chinese culture, the Chinese call themselves Hua Xia. This group of people lived around the Yellow River Valley starting from 4000BC as we know of, and started to dominate the region after uniting with another group in east and defeating barbarians in the south. They are the direct ancesters of the race of people call "Han", which today made up 95% of China's population. Today, the word Hua Xia is used interchangably with Middle Kingdom (China). A significant aspect of China is its long cultural and national history. The Chinese people have shared a common culture longer than any other group on Earth. The Chinese writing system dates back almost 4,000 years.