Paratroopers useless?

[XOR]

Paratroopers have 6/8/1 and a 6 distance of paradrop.

They dont attack much so they are worthless for attacking.

They dont defend much compared to the much older and cheaper infantry unit so they are not very good for defending.

They dont even paradrop much because you need to build an airport in a city to make a paradrop from it, I dont mind building airports, but there is very little combat near my airport cities, or even my border cities, and when there is a lot of combat there, it's 3 turns away from totally moving the border so far that paratroopers cant reach it and not every city I capture has an airport.

Additionally, the helicopter can "drop" any infantry unit at the same range, from cities that do not have airport. By the time you research advanced flight (IF you do it) you have plenty of normal, cheaper infantry (those called "Infantry") with 6/10/1 to drop with the helicopters. More than that, you can "airlift" infantry from any city to any other city using helicopters, something that paratroopers dont do. There does not seem to be a single advantage in using paratroopers instead of droping normal infantry with helicopters.

It also doesnt jump very far either, 6 tiles away is barely enough to jump from one city to the next most of the time. Civ2 paratroopers could drop really far, I think it was 10 tiles, which was much better.

Seriously, the Civ2 paratrooper was much superior. I remember it could paradrop from any city, it could still move the same turn after having droped and it defended better than riflemen.

So, tell me, Paratroopers in Civ3 totally suck or is it just me?

[eklektikos]

Well, I'm not sure if I'm entirely qualified to comment because I've never bothered to build them. Then again, that says something in itself, considering that paradrop units were a fundamental element of my Civ2 & SMAC invasion strategies.

[Palaiologos]

Actually that was my first impression too.

But i have sort of "devised" a strategy for them:I use them to paradrop deep behind enemy lines on top of resourses that they promptly pillage the next turn.I also have them paradrop on mountains and hills and they occupy those strongpoints frustrating the flow of enemy reinforcements at the front.The enemy will prefer those paras as a target instead of my tank forces.They must always be used in large numbers(8+).

However by the time i get to use them i have tank or modern armour available and as you have correctly pointed out the front moves on very quickly at that tech level threatening to catch up with the paras before they fullfill their mission.

But yes, they are nowhere as good as in civ2.

[Jaybe]

From experience in my last game, where I actually built several paratroops:
They are basically light infantry. They only cost 100 shields, so you may be able to produce them a turn earlier than a more powerful alternate (e.g., MI). Use them to garrison your interior cities. When PTW arrives, if you can use them from an airbase they just might become quite useful.

Your infantry, at 90 shields, are all going to be upgraded to MI and they are no longer available for production (assuming aluminium). Marines or paratroops are your only non-mechanized alternatives. Unless you want to garrison your cities with swordsmen.

[XOR]

You dont necessarily upgrade all infantry to Mech Infantry.

Additionally, you can sell your oil to someone and be able to produce the cheaper infantry for 20 turns.

[jdw22]

Originally posted by XOR
Additionally, you can sell your oil to someone and be able to produce the cheaper infantry for 20 turns.

Not really, as you can only sell your excess oil, not all of it.

[eklektikos]

@jdw22 ~ You can sell every last drop of your oil if you so wish. You just can't convince the AI to sell you any resource/luxury that it has but one of.

[XOR]

Originally posted by jdw22


Not really, as you can only sell your excess oil, not all of it.

Yes, you can sell all your last oil until you have run out of oil for yourself and cannot build planes, helicopters, paratroopers or mechanized units for 20 turns. I have done it. If you cant find an AI that has no oil you can still pillage the thing for a while.

That enables you to build standard Infantry (which, shouldn't become obsolete nor be upgradeable to a mechanized mobile unit that isn't helitransportable, but such is life) and I know it because I have done that. It also comes that you can research adv flight before that computers so you can for some time use Infantry and finally, I dont upgrade all of my infantry for that reason and that reason alone, so it is still possible to have infantry and helicopters.

After that, normal infantry can be put in helicopters and paradroped the same range as paratroopers. They are cheaper, they are stronger and (most important) they dont need airports. The only downside of using helicopters (and I know because I have seen it happen) is that helicopters can be intercepted by fighters while I havent seen a paratrooper airdrop be intercepted by fighters (realismwise, fighters should be able to intercept them).

And I still have these 61 paratroopers (according to military advisor screen) that wont attack, or defend, or jump, they just sit fortreses on top of strategic resources "looking good" and do a really neat paradrop animation when I send them to a city and paradrop them back into the same tile of the same city (excercises?).

[Catt]

You hit myy one big gripe with paratroppers (as one of your gripes). I just don't always have airports on the fringes of my empire. That being said, I have occasionally used them: (1) to airdrop from a core city across a narrow channel (airdropping 15 or 20 paratroppers gets some attention); and (2) to harrass and pillage behind enemy lines (generally after taking and enemy city with an airport intact).

I seem to recall trying to mod the game to allow for airdrop missions from cities without an airport but not having a nice clean way to do it - and then my interest in mods began to flag and so I never did complete the task. I didn't think that the mod would necessarily be unbalancing, but never play-tested it - assuming its not, it might add some value to the paratrooper.

BTW, I definitely reccommend buildiong a couple at least once, if only to see the cute little graphic of chutes opening even in your own territory.

Catt

[johncmcleod]

You obviously haven't read my thread. I think it will change your mind. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=54848

[Odin]

I've moded the paratroopers to 18a.12d.1m and 160 sheilds. My marines are 14a.12.d.1m and 150 shields. they're expensive, but much more useful

[Jaybe]

Odin,
The reason that stock paratroops and marines are so lightweight is that they don't include all the firepower support and "depth" (aka logistics "tail") that the MI/MA (or Infantry) have. If they did, then they still wouldn't have the ammunition stores to keep them firing once they had dropped/landed. Therefore, you have to provide external bombardment support.

What you have done with your "upgrades" is make it that they could be inserted and "abandoned" without penalty. In principle, when paratroops drop, they are dependent on air support or linkup by ground forces. Marines' are similar. With your mods you could insert them, lose command of the air and/or sea and keep on truckin'.

OTOH, I have my OWN mods.

[hr_oskar]

I think in terms of realism the Civ3 Paratrooper isn't all that far off - in real life mass paratrooping has been considered obsolete since WWII, or so my sources on military history tell. Infantry needs a lot of support in modern warfare and it's apparently too hard to supply that support to whole divisions that have para-dropped behind enemy lines.

Of course, that doesn't have to mean they should suck in the game. I might mod them up a little bit myself, but probably not much. I like to have them as curious little units that demand creativity from the player, instead of the bruteness of the MA.

[Bambul]

I used to use Paratroopers in Civ2 so that I could take an enemy city, bypassing the ZOC of units in the way. If only Civ2-style ZOC was returned, even if just for fortresses, it would add so much more strategy, particularely defensive logistics and unit positioning (which has very little emphasis IMO).

Another thing: some may remember paratroopers from CTP2, which you could paradrop into an occupied tile and it would be considered as an attack. The difference was that if the attack was successful in CTP2 then the paratrooper would kill all the defending units (ie. it would actually have to win against the all).

[XOR]

Originally posted by johncmcleod
You obviously haven't read my thread. I think it will change your mind. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=54848

I read it and it doesnt sound very successful. The airdrop target has to be 6 tiles away from your airport, that's not much for a stampede of tanks (with the cost of 4 helicopters + 8 paratroopers + some few tanks you surely already had = that can make 30 tanks pretty easy). Additionally, you used helicopters, which means you could have just used infantry instead.

For pillage purposes, mind you, bombers outperform paratroopers even if there are fighters in the region. Same goes for Infantry loaded helicopters.

Dont get me wrong, I really like paratroopers (specially Civ2's), it's just that I'd like to be able to use their unique abilities for something else than just watching the airdrop animation.

Does anyone know how to change it so that they jump from any city (not just airports) and jump a distance of 9 (instead of just 6)?

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Catt
I have occasionally used them: (1) to airdrop from a core city across a narrow channel (airdropping 15 or 20 paratroppers gets some attention); and (2) to harrass and pillage behind enemy lines (generally after taking and enemy city with an airport intact).

...

Catt

This is the only use I have seen for them too. I'm still waiting for the right situation to occur, though...

Mech infantry is just a few techs away when you are about to chose to research for paras, and paras is a dead end. The choice is easy.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre

Mech infantry is just a few techs away when you are about to chose to research for paras, and paras is a dead end. The choice is easy.

Yup. I will occasionally research Amphib Warfare on my own. I can't recall the last time I researched Advanced Flight. It always seems to come to me via peace negotiations or in a trade where the AI civ has nothing else to offer.

Catt

[Unregistered]

I've used both Paras & Marines before in civ3 w/ very good results. In fact, I'd have to say that they are actually pretty good models of real Paras & Marines. Both have very specific roles that they fill on the battlefield. And when they are actually working within those roles - establishing a beachhead or airhead - they are performing as "light infantry". Which means they have extremely limited supplies of ammo and basically *no* heavy weapons. (That last part is really important to understand, it is what drives the lower defense & attack values for them) They only have the weapons that they can carry into battle, either on the jump or slogging thru the surf. This means small arms, with a sprinkling of light mortars & maybe some light anti-tank weapons, a few satchel charges & the like. Not many tho. A light mortar, say a 60mm, will be broken down into two pieces, a base-plate & a tube and two guys will split those & carry them. A third guy (& a fourth & a fifth & a sixth too!) will carry a couple of mortar rounds each. So you not only have to hump it into combat, but you must also assemble it when you get there. Which can be a problem if the guy w/ the base-plate is 200 yards behind you, floating face-down in the surf. Paras & Marines depend on close support aircraft & naval guns for heavy weapons. Their main job (in the Para or Marine mode) is to take and secure an area long enough (which *should* mean hours, 4-8 at the most, not days) for the heavy infantry - preferably w/ some armored support - to arrive and link up w/ them. Any time this model isn't followed leads to heavy casualties for the Marines or Paras. Read about the drops @ Market-Garden or Crete in WWII or the abortive Cuban invasion in the early sixties and you will see what I mean.

I think most of the confusion here comes from the fact that Marines & Paras are very rarely actually used in their battlefield specialty roles in real life. Much of the time they actually are used on the battlefield as elite heavy infantry, with all that entails; divisional/regimental/company artillery and heavy weapons squads along w/ (usually anyway) close armor support and APC's. Since they typically have more training and a higher esprit de corps they generally are tougher than your "average" heavy infantry, which leads to the expectation that they will be better than the generic infantry offered by the game. Unfortunately the game doesn't have the ability to portray a unit with two different sets of attack/defend values with the built in game logic to determine when which set of values would apply, so you get the specialty unit w/o the ability to function in a heavy infantry role. Which, in game terms, is ok, given all the other constraints that drive game development today.

I'd agree that the paradrop range leaves a bit to be desired, but even that isn't too bad. Paras aren't typically dropped too far ahead of the front lines, since you should be expecting to link up w/ them shortly after their drop so that they don't become roadkill. I do miss airfields though, and I am looking forward to having them again in ptw. I have to also note that the successful use of Paras irl depends pretty heavily on the element of surprise so that they can linked up with before the enemy can respond and wipe them out. In a tbs game, that means that you need to get to them w/ your tanks/MA and/or inf/MI on that *same* turn or they *will* be roadkill.

Cheers,

[vmxa1]

I do not use them as they seem superflous. I have whacked many though. In Civ2 that had some use, I don't see in Civ3.

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Unregistered
...
Much of the time they actually are used on the battlefield as elite heavy infantry, with all that entails; divisional/regimental/company artillery and heavy weapons squads along w/ (usually anyway) close armor support and APC's. ... Unfortunately the game doesn't have the ability to portray a unit with two different sets of attack/defend values with the built in game logic to determine when which set of values would apply, so you get the specialty unit w/o the ability to function in a heavy infantry role. ...

That is why you just have to support them with artillery and armor in Civ3. In the game there are extra advantages for having additional number of units, and paratroops will defend in a stack before a tank.

I have recently found that if I have a city which will produce Marine/Paratroop in one less turn than Mech Inf I might produce it instead, at least to garrison my cities far from the front. Just in case that special situation comes up.

(Should I need extra units to use as Military Police or to suppress resistors/culture flip, I'll more likely produce longbows or swords.)

[XOR]

In WWII they also paradroped tanks, paratroopers also didnt just have paratroopers, they had gliders which could carry vehicles in to battle if you want to look at it from the historical point of view.

Now, back to the game, you cant make much use of them if they only paradrop 6 tiles away and only do so from airport cities. I have modified my game, so that paratroopers jump 8 instead of 6, but I dont know how to make them jump from non-airport cities.

[SpencerH]

Originally posted by XOR
In WWII they also paradroped tanks, paratroopers also didnt just have paratroopers, they had gliders which could carry vehicles in to battle if you want to look at it from the historical point of view.

Now, back to the game, you cant make much use of them if they only paradrop 6 tiles away and only do so from airport cities. I have modified my game, so that paratroopers jump 8 instead of 6, but I dont know how to make them jump from non-airport cities.

Who paradropped Tanks in WWII ? I've never heard of it. And no glider ever hauled a tank.

I believe the Sheridan was air-droppable on paper but it wasnt advisable in practice (I've seen "bits" fly off with impact).

[jshelr]

I've only seen the AI use para's once. A lone trooper floated down right next to a city I'd just captured on a foreign continent. I had the usual large stack on a mountain nearby. So, it was 3 4-unit infantry armies, 40 artillery, and 50 MA on my side, versus the para on the AI side. Despite the AI tactics, I was able to pull through.

[Panag]

Originally posted by SpencerH


Who paradropped Tanks in WWII ? I've never heard of it. And no glider ever hauled a tank.

I believe the Sheridan was air-droppable on paper but it wasnt advisable in practice (I've seen "bits" fly off with impact).

hi ,

the germans where good in it , .....

not what is a tank today , but the tank of those days , well , you dont want to meet it , ....

after that the US did it , ....

a mostly unknown , even stalin did it in 45 , ....

have a nice day

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Who paradropped Tanks in WWII ? I've never heard of it. And no glider ever hauled a tank.
...

Light Tanks were hauled by gliders in WWII. Pz II's (and maybe Pz I's) by the Germans; Stuarts/Honeys by the Allies.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by eklektikos
@jdw22 ~ You can sell every last drop of your oil if you so wish. You just can't convince the AI to sell you any resource/luxury that it has but one of.

The last time I tried selling my last supply of a resource, that civ became furious with me (i asked for an offer).

[jshelr]

There is some other reason for the furious attitude. Selling your last resource is routinely ok and often a good idea.

[SpencerH]

I did some checking and I found that a few tanks (Tetrarch, M22 Locust) were hauled by large British Gliders (Hamilcar) and used succesfully in small numbers in some Brit airborne ops. You learn something every day . Not Stuarts though, 15 ton was too heavy (double the weight of the tetrarch or locust). I couldnt find anything on actual german or russian uses though.

[bbaws]

Paratroops are good for managing choke points, once used them against the Indians. Stacks of 6 or so on every square around their capital on the first turn of war. Bam all their trade agreements lapsed and four border cities flipped to me without a shot fired. I could have done it with helicopters but I had to use them for something just to enjoy that glorious animation.

[vmxa1]

Stacks of 6 modern unit of any kind should work for that. The issues is to me, would you rather have x paras or x mechinf?