We need more terrains

Odin · August 31, 2002, 12:34

My ideas:

Mediterrainian/Thorn Scrub (California, Israel)
1 food, 2 sheild

Swamp (Forida Everglades, Mississippi Delta)
2 food, chance of disease

Glacier (Antarctica, Greenland)
1 shield

Forested Hills (Appalacian Mts., Ural Mts.)
2 food, 1 shield

Desert Hills (Yemen, Iran)
2 shields

Any more sugestions???

WarpStorm · August 31, 2002, 14:30

This is not any easy change. Have you ever looked at how the art files are done? The hills wouldn't be terrible difficult, but the base tiles would be tough.

Base tile sets don't actually contain tiles, they contain tile transitions. Each file contains every combination of transitions between (at most) three tile types. For example, there is a file that contains the 81 possible transitions between desert, plains and grassland. There is another that contains the transitions between grassland, plains, and coast land, etc., etc., etc. As each new tile type would be added the number of tile transitions that artists and mod makers would have to make would grow geometrically.

Some terrains just "float" over a base terrian type. For example hills, mountains, forests, and jungles. It wouldn't be that tough for Firaxis to add a new "floater". It ain't gonna happen before PTW, though.

One mod that you could do now would be to make resources, that look and behave like a new terrain type.

Sheik · August 31, 2002, 15:45

I think dunes for the desert is a much needed addition.

Panag · August 31, 2002, 16:12

hi ,

there should also be different forms of hills and mountains , ... one a bit higher then the other , one a bit wider then the other , ....

there is a great variation in the forest , why not in the grassland and plains , .....

and the tundra could use something to , ...

have a nice day

WarpStorm · August 31, 2002, 21:52

All I can say is look into the graphics files and see how they are done (I have). There are some serious technical limits to what can be done without rewiting the whole engine.

Open xdgc.pcx, for example, to see what I was talking about earlier. What is drawn as a tile of grassland, for example isn't a grassland tile, but rather four tiles whose corners all happen to connect at the same point that is grass.

Lots of creativity can be done with this, but the basic engine is going to repeat the transitions a lot in your scene. When I'm finally happy with my graphics mod, I'll show you.

One idea I've been toying with is adding some bonus resources as terrain features. If properly done they would blend naturally with the underlying terrian. The downside of this is that just providing a graphics mod would not be enough, you'ld need to provide a .bic with it too.

I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer, I've just spent enough time (too much time, if truth be told) fiddling with these files and I realize the magnitude of the graphics burden to add new terrain types.

ammt603 · August 31, 2002, 23:23

Cool idea Odin. That would make things more realistic. After all, isnt that what most of the game is based on?

sprucemoose3311 · September 1, 2002, 01:01

Coral Reefs!!

Imagine exploraing a coast.... then smash, your ship is destroyed on a coral reef (to be fair theres a 1:3 chance it will crash)

Panag · September 1, 2002, 07:33

hi ,

it would also be nice to have terraforming , ....

seawaves would be nice , ....

also they need to work a bit on the terrain , example ; you edit tundra to have no food , and the AI builds there anyway , ...

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 1, 2002, 08:43

Did you tell the AI that building on tundra was not allowed? It is a flag that needs set (Allow Cities). The AI will obey the flag.

The city itself will always produce just enough food to feed one citizen even on terrain that has no food. This is a double-edged sword, if the city tile produces 3 or more food you only get 2.

You can easily have a population 1 city in the middle of an area that has absolutely no food. It won't grow, but it is valid and there can be good reasons for doing it (contiguous borders, resources, and culture bombing come to mind immediately).

Panag · September 1, 2002, 08:50

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Did you tell the AI that building on tundra was not allowed? It is a flag that needs set (Allow Cities). The AI will obey the flag.

The city itself will always produce just enough food to feed one citizen even on terrain that has no food. This is a double-edged sword, if the city tile produces 3 or more food you only get 2.

You can easily have a population 1 city in the middle of an area that has absolutely no food. It won't grow, but it is valid and there can be good reasons for doing it (contiguous borders, resources, and culture bombing come to mind immediately).

hi ,

well the , AI should not build on the terrain that you dont want to

, ....

and sometimes the AI cares less about the flag it has or not , ...

Firaxis told us that they where going to fix it , .....

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 1, 2002, 09:17

If the flag is set, you can settle there. Why shouldn't the AI be allowed to settle somewhere that you can? They will not make cities in tundra if the flag is not set, but then you can't either. Is this what you want? Or do you want them to not settle places that are harsh living conditions, but allow you to if you really want to?

Panag · September 1, 2002, 09:22

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
If the flag is set, you can settle there. Why shouldn't the AI be allowed to settle somewhere that you can? They will not make cities in tundra if the flag is not set, but then you can't either. Is this what you want? Or do you want them to not settle places that are harsh living conditions, but allow you to if you really want to?

hi ,

okay , example , tundra , no settle , not human and not AI , ...

works fine , but in about 40 % the AI doesnt care and does settle , .....

have a nice day

Panzer · September 1, 2002, 11:42

Alright, maybe this sounds stupid, but maybe they are settling on forests, since forests are a different kind of terrain than tundra (if I'm correct). This way the AI could settle on a single tile of forested tundra while the rest of the area is just tundra.

WarpStorm · September 1, 2002, 12:44

Yes, forests are a different terain than tundra.

Panag · September 1, 2002, 13:57

hi ,

well that trick was used , thinking that the AI would go for those tiles , .... okay in most case the AI runs for it , ... but in other cases , no way , ..... next to the forest , ...

have a nice day

Odin · September 1, 2002, 14:34

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
hi ,

well that trick was used , thinking that the AI would go for those tiles , .... okay in most case the AI runs for it , ... but in other cases , no way , ..... next to the forest , ...

have a nice day

Happens to me too.

Panag · September 1, 2002, 14:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Odin

Happens to me too.

hi ,

lets hope they do something about it in a patch or in PTW , .....

there has been some talk about it , ....

but no real solution , yet , ...

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 1, 2002, 16:37

I've never seen a city built on a terrain flagged as no build. Maybe they planted a forest, first. I would if I really wanted to settle there.

Panag · September 1, 2002, 16:43

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
I've never seen a city built on a terrain flagged as no build. Maybe they planted a forest, first. I would if I really wanted to settle there.

hi ,

nope , they did not plant a forest , .....

and the funny think about it is that it aint happening all the time , ....

well , lets hope a solution is on the way , ...

, one extra type of coastal tile would also be great , ....

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 1, 2002, 19:47

What do you mean by one extra type of coastal tile?

Odin · September 1, 2002, 20:32

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
What do you mean by one extra type of coastal tile?

He means kelp and coral reefs like in CtP2

I also had some ideas for more water resorces

Pearls: luxury, +2 gold

Shellfish: bonus, +2 food

Natural Gas: bonus, +3 shields

WarpStorm · September 1, 2002, 22:10

These could be done fairly easy using the current resource system. They aren't really terrains (in the sense that plains, for example, are).

Panag · September 2, 2002, 03:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Odin

He means kelp and coral reefs like in CtP2

I also had some ideas for more water resorces

Pearls: luxury, +2 gold

Shellfish: bonus, +2 food

Natural Gas: bonus, +3 shields

hi ,

, that would be nice , ....

but actually the idea is a second coastal tile , something with a beach , something that "fits" more in certain configurations , ....

we should also have some form of terrain control , example ; rule 1 - no mauntains next to a water tile unless landlocked , no hills nect to desert , something like that , this is only one example , ....

okay we are going to get winter and european terrain , ...

lets now hope we are going to get new resources aswell , ....

and if we get rescources we should also get buildings to support it ; example , oil needs a refinery , the same for gas , .....

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 2, 2002, 10:02

Actually, the beach issue and connectivity issue is entirely a matter of the artist making the tile sets. The tools are there now and there are rules (for example, a tundra can't be next to a desert). I agree that there should have been a desert hill, but the rules of terrain building always put hills on grassland.

I've included an example of a tile set (not yet ready for release) that includes beaches and where the mountains don't look bad next to the coast (and they do happen in real life). It's all in the transitions.

WarpStorm · September 2, 2002, 21:50

BTW, there are many real life examples of mountains next to the coast, nearly every volcanic isle and the fjords off the top of my head.

Martinus Magnificus · September 3, 2002, 03:43

'low lands' (Netherlands, Bangladesh). These areas appear next to coastal water only and turn into coastal water when global warming reaches a certain level. This way, the rising sea levels could be reflected in the game.

WarpStorm · September 3, 2002, 06:48

That was one thing I really liked about SMAC, the 3D terrain and global warming. You'd get that warning that so many of your cities were at risk of being submerged.

Firebird · September 4, 2002, 16:49

Give me the ability to add events and give me terraforming-abilities. Then I would be able to do something like that.

Panag · September 6, 2002, 12:11

hi ,

the new european terrain , ....

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 6, 2002, 14:49

I prefer the Watercolor one, but I'm real biased. The European one is too dark (and low contrast) for my tastes. The saving grace is of the European map is that the resources stand out. FOr a WW2 scenario it wouldn't be bad, I guess.