We need more terrains - Page 2

XarXo · September 6, 2002, 23:53

Oh, I see, very european, without any doubt

Panag · September 7, 2002, 13:23

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
I prefer the Watercolor one, but I'm real biased. The European one is too dark (and low contrast) for my tastes. The saving grace is of the European map is that the resources stand out. FOr a WW2 scenario it wouldn't be bad, I guess.

hi ,

someone speculated that its night , .... and they have put night and day in , ....

have a nice day

Caliban · September 7, 2002, 14:07

Quote:

Originally posted by panag

hi ,

someone speculated that its night , .... and they have put night and day in , ....

have a nice day

Yeah, or it's a solar eclipse! Or a giant spaceship between sun and earth!

WarpStorm · September 7, 2002, 14:20

I doubt that day and night cycles would be in a game where turns take at least a year (and often more).

Panag · September 8, 2002, 08:13

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
I doubt that day and night cycles would be in a game where turns take at least a year (and often more).

hi ,

rumour control again ; it has to do with "turnless" , ....

and it could be possible that they shall let us edit the "turns" , ....

have a nice day

kring · September 9, 2002, 20:11

I am looking forward to your terrain mod when you finish it, WarpStorm.

Blue Moose · September 9, 2002, 20:48

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
I doubt that day and night cycles would be in a game where turns take at least a year (and often more).

All you need is a bright/dark strobe-light effect. But I don't want this as a game feature. ; )

Martinus Magnificus · September 10, 2002, 08:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Caliban
Yeah, or it's a solar eclipse! Or a giant spaceship between sun and earth!

I think it has something to do with the cpu being busy loading or saving. I noticed the same dark effect with light resources and units when I was playing a game on a huge earth map. It occurred when the cpu was processing the AI's turns when a pop up showed up.

Sorry folks, no night time, solar eclipse, nuclear winter, vulcanic eruption or aliens here!

WarpStorm · September 10, 2002, 08:39

No, it's the European tile set. There are a bunch of different screenshots showing this tile set (and the winter tile set).

XarXo · September 10, 2002, 15:24

More terrains:

Bed Rock: No shield, no food. Resources: Minerals (Gold and the others)

Glacier: No shield, no food. In coastal areas, animals.

WarpStorm · September 10, 2002, 16:41

Like I said earlier in this thread, I hate to be a nay-sayer, but adding base terrain types would be a major effort for both Firaxis and any terrain modders (floater types would be easier). Adding even one base terrain type would mean adding at the bare minimum 81 new tiles to the artwork (and that is if the new terrain could only connect to only two other terrain types (like tundra currently)). This is a lot of work.

Panag · September 16, 2002, 09:31

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Like I said earlier in this thread, I hate to be a nay-sayer, but adding base terrain types would be a major effort for both Firaxis and any terrain modders (floater types would be easier). Adding even one base terrain type would mean adding at the bare minimum 81 new tiles to the artwork (and that is if the new terrain could only connect to only two other terrain types (like tundra currently)). This is a lot of work.

hi ,

agreed its some work , but for Firaxis this is only a couple hours , .....

have a nice day

Bolt · September 16, 2002, 09:44

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Actually, the beach issue and connectivity issue is entirely a matter of the artist making the tile sets. The tools are there now and there are rules (for example, a tundra can't be next to a desert). I agree that there should have been a desert hill, but the rules of terrain building always put hills on grassland.

I've included an example of a tile set (not yet ready for release) that includes beaches and where the mountains don't look bad next to the coast (and they do happen in real life). It's all in the transitions.

Sorry about the late reply, but that graphics looks great.

Other new terrain could be: Savannah.

WarpStorm · September 16, 2002, 12:38

Quote:

Originally posted by panag
agreed its some work , but for Firaxis this is only a couple hours , .....

Only a couple of hours for terrain? Hey Sn00py, how many hours did you spend on your terrain? I'm guessing at least 8 hours or so per tile set. I spent at least that on mine.

You would have to do about that much more for each new tile type. It's a geometric progression. A new tile transition file would have to be generated for each tile type that that terrain can be adjacent to. For example if I had a savanah that could be next to desert, grass, plains and coasts this would be 4 new files at however many hours a piece. If I then added a marsh tile that could be next to all of them (and the new savanah tiles) that would add 10 more tiles sets and so on.

After a while this would be nearly impossible to extend in a reasonable time.

WarpStorm · September 16, 2002, 12:40

Thanks, Bolt.

Panag · September 16, 2002, 18:32

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm

Only a couple of hours for terrain? Hey Sn00py, how many hours did you spend on your terrain? I'm guessing at least 8 hours or so per tile set. I spent at least that on mine.

You would have to do about that much more for each new tile type. It's a geometric progression. A new tile transition file would have to be generated for each tile type that that terrain can be adjacent to. For example if I had a savanah that could be next to desert, grass, plains and coasts this would be 4 new files at however many hours a piece. If I then added a marsh tile that could be next to all of them (and the new savanah tiles) that would add 10 more tiles sets and so on.

After a while this would be nearly impossible to extend in a reasonable time.

hi ,

at firaxis they are not working with one person , ........

at 09 00 they meet , decide what new terrain goes in it
at 10 00 six people start on it
break 12 00 - 1400
14 to 18 00

lets see thats 6 hours times 6 , .... = 36 , ........

since they know how to do it , have great comps , the whole rimram , yeah they can do it in a day or two , .......

thats how easy it would be for them , .......

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 16, 2002, 19:37

No, they have one person who does terrain, Nick. The speed of the computer doesn't matter unless you've got a pathetic computer, it's strictly on how fast you can do quality tiles. 81 tiles per set. Even if you know how, it still takes a while to do them and get the seams correct. Even if you have more artists, after a certain point throwing more people at the problem usually makes things take longer rather than shorter (artistic differences, miscommunications, etc.) Nine women can't make a baby in a month. Plus there's that whole artistic vision thing.

Try it and you'll see.

Panag · September 17, 2002, 07:45

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
No, they have one person who does terrain, Nick. The speed of the computer doesn't matter unless you've got a pathetic computer, it's strictly on how fast you can do quality tiles. 81 tiles per set. Even if you know how, it still takes a while to do them and get the seams correct. Even if you have more artists, after a certain point throwing more people at the problem usually makes things take longer rather than shorter (artistic differences, miscommunications, etc.) Nine women can't make a baby in a month. Plus there's that whole artistic vision thing.

Try it and you'll see.

hi ,

okay so what , even if they have only one person , that still means one new type every week , .....

lets ask in the friday chat , ....

have a nice day

WarpStorm · September 17, 2002, 07:59

Ah, but you're forgetting the geometric progression thing I mentioned earlier. He could do the first new terrain in a week, but the second would take two weeks, and the third would take three weeks to do.

Actually, I'm not against more terrains, I'd like to see a few more also. I'm just intimately aware of exactly how much work it is now.

Panag · September 17, 2002, 08:16

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Ah, but you're forgetting the geometric progression thing I mentioned earlier. He could do the first new terrain in a week, but the second would take two weeks, and the third would take three weeks to do.

Actually, I'm not against more terrains, I'd like to see a few more also. I'm just intimately aware of exactly how much work it is now.

hi ,

even then , that would still mean a couple sets in a couple months , ......

have a nice day

XarXo · September 17, 2002, 09:46

Firaxis can't create a graphic program to generate transitions? You just have to create the main terrain and the program create the combinations.

Level · September 17, 2002, 10:57

It is posible but it would be very square and ugly, you could edit it but that would take a long time.

Bolt · September 17, 2002, 11:43

But that should at least lessen the total time: auto + edit < scratch.

WarpStorm · September 17, 2002, 12:22

Well, that's what I did in mine, The 8 hours per tile set started after the auto part.

FrostyBoy · September 18, 2002, 05:38

btw warpstorm, it takes me about 8 hours, but this new mod I am working on (the 90% incomplete one) takes me a few days. Because each terrain tile is being worked on as if I was drawing a painting. I'm doing it with a tiny paint brush and carefully illustrating any tree's, cliffs, waterfalls, hills, etc. This is why it's taking me so long. I only have one more tileset to go through, and it's the easiest one (of the land tilesets).

WarpStorm · September 18, 2002, 07:30

Sn00py, I found the ones with coast to be the hardest in my tileset. They are they ones I'm still not happy with, which is why I'm at 95% on my tileset. Yours look awesome. I especially like the transparent water look.

I started by coming up with common edge transitions building the frame of each tile and working inwards. I based mine very closely on Nick's original style (people may complain, but I like the original style), with a more "wet" brush, darker shadows, and a more faded browner palette. I was trying for an old-timey map. When I'm happy with it I'll probably palette shift it into an ancient parchment variant.

BTW, thanks Sn00py. I learned a lot on how to do this by comparing what you did with the Firaxis tiles. It's not like anyone ever wrote up how to do this stuff. I am winging it.

dovlvn · September 18, 2002, 07:58

I think the need is not so much for more terrain types ( I agree it may require too much mods) but more terraforming ability

of terrain especially in industrial and modern eras which currentiy in civ 3 there is laughably little change in those eras (unlike smac). it should be possible by mod era to turn desert to forests (and vice versa) and irrigate tundras and mountains. that would increase playability of those eras and show the real changing importance and use of terrain and the sudden capacity of desert citys (like phonix or alberqurque) or siberian ones to grow thanks to tech imp

Martinus Magnificus · September 18, 2002, 08:10

it has been mentioned before that a tile in Civ 3 actually represents an area of ceveral thousands of acres. To turn a desert that size into a forest or even plains, even if the technologies to do so would exist (which they do not at the present day!) would take ages. Yes, you can irrigate a desert to make it somewhat more productive, but that concept is already present in Civ 3. To change an entire mountain range into hills or even grasslands would be even more ridiculous and unrealistic.

dovlvn · September 18, 2002, 08:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Martinus Magnificus
it has been mentioned before that a tile in Civ 3 actually represents an area of ceveral thousands of acres. To turn a desert that size into a forest or even plains, even if the technologies to do so would exist (which they do not at the present day!) would take ages. Yes, you can irrigate a desert to make it somewhat more productive, but that concept is already present in Civ 3. To change an entire mountain range into hills or even grasslands would be even more ridiculous and unrealistic.

1.we are capable already today of large scale terraforming (see a nice amount of the mid west) with foresting and pumping projects and explosives (atomic and otherwise).the only limit is eco concerns and the heavy cost (that could be represented in civ3 in large num of turns)anyway civ3 ends 20-30 years ahead of today so some leeway is permitted
2.it will make advanced game far more interesting with some marginal cities suddenly capable of growing)
3far easier to add then new terrain types

WarpStorm · September 18, 2002, 12:20

Which parts of the mid-west are terraformed? Note that I don't consider irrigation or reforestation terraforming. In addition, anything that requires contiuous pumping of water is just irrigation, albeit on a big scale. If you shut off the pumps and it dries up, it's not terraformed.