AU 105: The Power of Gold: Q & A thread

[Konquest02]

Originally posted by Theseus

I'd also like to suggest a third thread beyond spoilers - tips and advice for the newer players. Combination of specific Q&A, and maybe some more experienced commentary on things to watch out for, especially early in the game. This would especially be helpful for those who have not yet played many or any Monarch-level games.

Well, this is the thread!!

I'd like to start with the first decision which we have to make at the beginning of our game: where do we put our first city? We can move our worker to see what lies around us, but then...? Should we found on the location we have, move to the golden hills near us, etc.?

Without a good first city placement, pumping out settlers becomes really difficult and we lose terrain over the AI. So what was good/bad for you short term and long term?

--Kon--

Note: The screenshot is not what you see at the beginning. I moved the worker in each of the directions it could be moved on the first move. I think that, given this, we can make a better reflection on the topic.

[candybo]

Looks great to me. 2 fish, 3 fur, 1 cow, hills, bonus grass, and on coast, to boot!

[Theseus]

It's a great start... let me point out some subtleties:

* Every tile on a river gets +1 commerce. So, I'd start with the shield tile to the NW, and I'd mine it before building a road. Also, note that the fur, cow, and gold tiles on the river all get +1 commerce too, before you lay down a road!

* The capitol will expand automatically after 10 turns (from the culture of the Palace). It's going to take 5 turns to mine and road that NW tile. I think the next tile to be worked should be the cow, which will take 1 move to get there, and 4 turns to irrigate and then road. Thus, just when Thebes expands its territory, the cow tile will be ready to go.

* Why irrigate the cow? In despotism, the only tiles that can be worked to generate more than 2 food are those that already generate more than 2 food... the cow naturally generates 3 food, so irrigating it kicks it up to 4.

* Next stop, across the river, get those furs hooked up. That'll be a 1-2-2 tile, which will be a good balance to the cow.

* Thebes in general: As it's on a river and a coast, and with such good land (but only one food bonus in despotism), I would lean toward getting it bigger... sometimes you keep pumping settlers every time your capitol hits pop 3, but here I would advise against it. I would try to keep it in the 4-6 pop range. Depending on how the game goes, this should be a GREAT site for the Colossus.

[nbarclay]

Nice spoiler. By moving the worker in each possible direction, you took away the challenge of making the decision based on only the information that's supposed to be available when the decision is made (not to mention the challenge of picking the right direction to send that worker his first move).

My current thinking is that settling in the initial starting position makes perfect sense. Moving to the northwest would get access to the cattle sooner, but taking the time to move would offset part of that advantage and I hate wasting a shielded grassland. Moving due north would avoid wasting a shielded grassland, but would take away the capital's ocean access and stick it with coastal squares that can't be used to best advantage later in the game due to lack of a harbor. On the other hand, moving north or northwest MIGHT result in getting lucky and finding another land tile or two with a food bonus.

One other thing I like about the starting position is how productive a capital positioned there is all but destined to become. Furs bring a production bonus and can have their underlying forests chopped down and replaced with mines, which creates the potential for a size-seven city working nothing but two-production grasslands (or one production but extra food from the cattle tile if it is irrigated instead of mined). Better yet, the gold in two of the hill tiles would help support a remarkably large workforce for building ancient wonders without having to turn the luxury rate up too high. And once the transition to Republic (or Monarchy) is made, a size twelve city working all those hills could be a true marvel to behold. Still later, if I've calculated correctly, with a railraod and hospital, the city's eventual base production (before factory and power plant) would reach at least 51. It could be even higher if there's a shielded grassland lurking under one of the two empty forests or if there's a strategic resource that boosts production around.

Nathan

[Theseus]

I think it's OK for the purposes of this thread to have a little spoilage.

Good point though... the first move with the Worker is usually pretty important. Rules of thumb: Move the Worker before building the town. Usually go N/E/S/W... you'll see more. However, you usually want to move onto a tile that you're going to work right away, so in the case either NW or E. I usually want to know what's along rivers, so NW. Thus, a good first Worker move would have unveiled at least one fur and the cow anyway.

And yes, this really is a sweet site. This is going to be one of those situations where you mine everything (except the cow), and then selectively irrigate over the mines later.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
* Next stop, across the river, get those furs hooked up. That'll be a 1-2-2 tile, which will be a good balance to the cow.

Chop down a fur forest and replace it with a mine and you get just as good a production under Despotism but better food. The production from chopping down the forest doesn't hurt either, especially if trying to build an early granary (which I think makes lots of sense here; it makes a good settler pump early and allows relatively rapid growth to a large size once other cities are ready to take over settler production).

* Thebes in general: As it's on a river and a coast, and with such good land (but only one food bonus in despotism), I would lean toward getting it bigger... sometimes you keep pumping settlers every time your capitol hits pop 3, but here I would advise against it. I would try to keep it in the 4-6 pop range. Depending on how the game goes, this should be a GREAT site for the Colossus.

If my rough calculations are right, with a temple and MPs, the city could probably grow to size 9 at a 20% luxury rate or size 12 at a 30% luxury rate even on Emperor. Between the gold hills, the rivers, and the furs, that city has potential to get a LOT of leverage out of the luxury rate!

Nathan

[Theseus]

Good point about chopping down the forest... whether to road first is probably determined by what you are building at the time.

Rather than using the luxury slider, hopefully there are other luxuries resources about... get three, for instance, and Thebes can be a monster in no time.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
And yes, this really is a sweet site. This is going to be one of those situations where you mine everything (except the cow), and then selectively irrigate over the mines later.

Except that by the time you're ready to irrigate over the mines, you'll very possibly have a harbor to get extra food out of the fish. Working one fish and one mined grassland with shield is the equivalent of working two irrigated grasslands with shield until the age of railroads. If you leave forests intact, irrigating grasslands under Republic or Monarchy in order to work the forests could make a lot of sense. But my inclination is to chop down forests and replace them with mines. With the fish available, and with the cattle tile irrigated, that would give me three food surplus working all the hills under Republic without switching any mines over to irrigation. Then switch the cattle tile to mining (if it makes any practical difference) and move a laborer from the fish to a land tile and the city is a production-maxed size twelve. That avoids the need to switch mines over to irrigation at least until the industrial era - especially if you have a granary to get better growth out of a three-food surplus.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Theseus
Good point about chopping down the forest... whether to road first is probably determined by what you are building at the time.

Keep in mind that chopping and then roading is faster than roading and then chopping. I usually figure that if I'm going to chop in the fairly near future, I want to do it before I build roads. The down side is that a chop-then-road approach could require boosting the luxury slider temporarily, but giving the worker a head start on everything else he'll do for the rest of his life should repay the lost gold with interest.

Rather than using the luxury slider, hopefully there are other luxuries resources about... get three, for instance, and Thebes can be a monster in no time.

Until a marketplace is available, two extra luxuries would at best replace only one notch of the luxury slider in the size ranges I have in mind. I'd definitely love to have a couple extra luxuries, but I suspect that I would view them as a complement to using the luxruy slider rather than as a full replacement. (Of course the tiny number of MPs I typically have available causes me to use the luxury slider a good bit more than most players anyhow.)

Nathan

[Theseus]

I chose to play Monarch anyway, as I expect that many of the newer players will do so. So, we've got the benefit of generally more content cits, as well ass garrisoning. Agreed, though, I definitely used a combo of luxes and the slider.

[Konquest02]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Nice spoiler. By moving the worker in each possible direction, you took away the challenge of making the decision based on only the information that's supposed to be available when the decision is made (not to mention the challenge of picking the right direction to send that worker his first move).

Nathan

I know, but you can't discuss the game without spoiling it a little. If the image we had would have been the actual starting image, the posts would have been : " Move your worker, then we'll see..."

Anyway, played a bit and the starting location is just great. Missed most of the wonders though...I defenitely agree that this is a city made for the Colossus, because of the river going by.

--Kon--

[Theseus]

Well there's a tip right there.

Typically, the AI civs do not prioritize the Colossus, so I feel comfortable waiting a bit before starting it. Given the nature of this start site, though, I felt almost a compulsion to make sure I get it. So, rather than use Thebes as an early boot camp or settler factory, I built a Temple, and started on the Colossus as soon as I researched BW.

[Konquest02]

Originally posted by Theseus
Well there's a tip right there.

[B]Typically[B], the AI civs do not prioritize the Colossus, so I feel comfortable waiting a bit before starting it. (emphasis mine)

In my game (regent), the Colossus was the first completed wonder, and pretty fast too. But I agree that most of the time, the Colossus is what I call a "leftover" wonder (i.e. Shakespeare)

--Kon--

[vulture]

There's one additional bonus to the start location, and that's the fact that the river doesn't actually enter the sea next to the city (or anywhere for that matter). What this means is that a road south from the start position doesn't incur the movement penalty of crossing rivers, which can be rather important when planning where to build roads at the start. A road that takes a longer route can be faster than a direct road somewhere that crosses a river once or twice.

Also, given how far north we start on the world map, there's a good chance that everything north is already ours, and the expansion needs to head south or east, depending on how the land lies. In either case, the road south over the hills is going to be useful, and IMHO is a priority once 3 tiles for the capital have been improved.

[Robber Baron]

Great thread, Konquest02. Thanks. The level of analysis here hits players like me (played a bunch, but have a LOT to learn) right in the sweet spot.

Suggestion for future thread management:
You should let the current status (starting position, plus a bit of an extended view) collect a few days' worth of analysis, then play, say, 10 turns forward, then stop and post, to gather more analysis on the next round of decisions. (Could be 10 turns -- or a major turning point, e.g., AI civ makes a demand and/or declares war.)

I'd find that depth of ongoing, sequential analysis very helpful. I bet a lot of people would!
In any event, this is great stuff.

[vmxa1]

If you want to really help newbies, then I would recommend turn by turn advise. I suspect that the first 10-15 turns is where people are unsure of the proper move. I agree Monarch or even Warlord is a more likely start for new players. Maybe Civ2 champs tried Civ3 on high settings, but most of them learned that was not profitable, until they figured out the game.

[Theseus]

Well, I've played up to researching Education.

Any questions, thoughts, or ideas prior to that, use this thread, and I'll try to give guidance without spoilers.

[Taian]

So Egypt's a religious and industrious civilization...how did Sun Tzu's trigger a GA for me? I was trying to delay the GA as long as possible and was under the impression that the War Academy only triggers for militaristic. Is that normal or has anyone seen it before?

[alexman]

Sun Tzu is indeed only militaristic. If it triggered your GA, something really wacky is going on. The Great Wall OTOH is also industious. Are you confusing the two?

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Taian
So Egypt's a religious and industrious civilization...how did Sun Tzu's trigger a GA for me? I was trying to delay the GA as long as possible and was under the impression that the War Academy only triggers for militaristic. Is that normal or has anyone seen it before?

Did you have captured wonders that satisfied (or helped satisfy) what you needed for a golden age? From what I've seen, building a wonder seems to trigger a search through all wonders in your posession (not just ones you've built) to see if you have a combination matching your traits. I'm not positive that it always happens, but I've definitely seen it happen, and so have others.

Nathan

[Felch]

Looks really good. I never thought of things that way before.

[Taian]

Originally posted by nbarclay


Did you have captured wonders that satisfied (or helped satisfy) what you needed for a golden age? From what I've seen, building a wonder seems to trigger a search through all wonders in your posession (not just ones you've built) to see if you have a combination matching your traits. I'm not positive that it always happens, but I've definitely seen it happen, and so have others.

Nathan

That might be it. I had captured the pyramids a few turns earlier and hadn't built any wonders since then.

[vulture]

Originally posted by Taian



That might be it. I had captured the pyramids a few turns earlier and hadn't built any wonders since then.

The Pyramids alone is enough to trigger the GA for Egypt, so it looks like Nathan is spot on.

[Taian]

So pretty much you have to get really lucky or have built very few wonders to have the Iron Works during your GA..

[Theseus]

No, the Pyramids is the only one that have both Rel and Ind characteristics. Of the others, the one's that are Ind are what to watch out for... Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, and Hoover Dam. All other GWs are OK.

I can live without the first two, but gotta have Hoover, so that's when my GA will come.

(For newer players: Hoover is often the most-guaranteed significant GW... make sure to get ToE and Hoover by timing two pre-builds to the completion of research on Scientific Method; get Atomic Theory and Electronics for free, and voila! This is also a great time to sell techs for mucho gold).

If I do it right, I'll have my cities highly improved, growing over 12 pop, and the IW up and running.

[alexman]

I believe Nathan's point was that if you have captured the Pyramids, since it satisfies your trait combo, you will get a GA next time you complete any Wonder! I don't like this feature/bug, BTW. Captured Wonders should not count for GA purposes just like they don't give culture.

Just to spark a discussion in this Q&A thread, I have a question:

***SPOILER***

We all agree that the first move in this game should be to eliminate Rome before they become dangerous. But what next? Persia is across the channel, Greece is, well... Greece, yet our empire is not very large. So what is the best strategy for Late Ancient/Early Medieval period:

a) Go for Persia
b) Go for Greece, or
c) Build up and wait for Cavalry

I would imagine the best choice would be to go after Greece with loads and loads of Knights. If you can avoid Chivalry until you're ready, and upgrade horsemen all at once, all the better. Immortals are dangerous, and ferrying two units at a time across the chanel requires many galleys, unless you manage to get a foothold on their continent before the war.

In any case, I would definitely keep fighting until I get a GL for a Palace/FP.

[Theseus]

After disposing of Rome, they respawned in the jungle, so I had to take care of them first. Pretty funny actually, as I immediately made peace with them, and took a Worker and 100 gold, same as vulture did.

Greece had not hooked up iron, so all I was facing were Warriors and Hoplites. I don't think 3 defense is the end of the world, especially if you can get to Greece while it's overextended from REXing. And I'd rather face that then Immortals.

So that's what I did... in the Swordsmen war, I took 3-4 border towns, then extorted. As a side note, I also used up the Greek GA early.

During peace, I used the power of Industrious to carve out a clear path and then build a road through the jungle...

When I realized that the only saltpeter was in Greek hands, as well as the wine, I went back, this time with Knights. Captured a couple more cities, got a few GLs, and extorted again. Moved my Palace to Delphi. By this time, Greece is my punching bag, although I still had not captured Athens.

Last night, I had wiped Greece off the continent, with Cavs.

The Persians will be visited with Tanks.

[nbarclay]

SPOILER ALERT: This post contains material indicating who two of the opponents are and a little about what the home hemisphere of the map looks like.



If you build a city on the southeastern tip of the starting area, the Persian Channel is no problem because your city controls two squares on the other side of the channel. Further, even without the Great Lighthouse, a little finesse makes it possible to carry across two sets of units per turn. The sequence is (1) Unload the units loaded at the end of the previous turn. (2) Move into the city. (3) Load. (4) Move to a tile adjacent to both the city and the far shore. (5) Unload. (6) Load more units even though your ship is offshore. With the Great Lighthouse (or galleons), add another cycle of going into the city, loading, coming back, and unloading, and you can get three sets of units across per ship per turn. A single galley can preposition four to six units per turn, and since you unload in your own territory, you can repeat that process for several turns before attacking. That makes the channel essentially worthless in Persia's defense. (I actually didn't work out the entire crossing parameters until after I didn't need them any more for my own game, but the idea is handy for future reference.)

Greece and Persia are near the top of my list of least favorite civs to go after with knights. Both have ancient-era UUs that all but guarantee them (especially Greece) a golden age if you attack (unless they've already used it up, of course). Greece's Hoplites give it a defense as if every single spearman were upgraded to a pikeman, and their low cost makes them even more annoying. Persia's Immortals are much more dangerous to knights than to cavalry because knights can almost never get in attack range without exposing themselves to a Persian counterattack whereas cavalry can usually stay "safely" (barring culture flips if they stay more than one turn) within a city and still be in range to attack the next city. My own approach was to see how far I could get against Greece with an initial force of knights upgraded from war chariots (even cheaper than horsemen in production terms) and longbowmen upgraded archers, but I didn't want to compromise my city development the way I would have had to to keep reinforcements flowing in.

One note: if you wait to get cavalry before launching an attack, always make sure you have saltpeter available. (If you only have one source, it may be very much worth disconnecting or not connecting it until you're actually ready to use it.) If the first you realize you don't have saltpeter is when you're ready to start building cavalry, you're probably in some pretty serious trouble.

If I remember right, it's possible to build the FP in a fairly reasonable location the hard way by around the time Leonardo's would be ready for a reasonably priced upgrade to knights. I built mine in the former Roman city of Cumae, which juts out into the water across from Persia about eleven tiles south of Thebes. That's a reasonably good location for the eventual capital of the western hemisphere, and then I can move my palace to the eastern hemisphere when I capture a good location for it (assuming I get a leader at a reasonable time). By the way, rush-building a courthouse to reduce corruption and a marketplace to help get WLT?D can be a big help in building a FP the hard way in a location not all that close to the capital.

Nathan

[ducki]

First off, great tips on the opening.

Second, *bump* for everyone doing AU 205.

Third, ack! I read a spoiler!

Hehe, just kidding.
Great starting info, though.

[ducki]

Hey guys.
I didn't want to clog the Results thread, so hopefully this is the place to ask.

I've got an opportunity to build either Sun Tzu's or Leo's - it's up to me - but which one do you guys feel is worth more?

I've looked at the "Must Read" link "Wonder Guide" but it didn't shed much light.

I'm leaning towards Leo's, but instant free healing in captured towns is nice too.

If you have to choose only one, which do you choose?

I have to decide now, because I let it go too long, and I'm 1 turn away from completion.