Why I skip knights

[Thrawn05]

A week or so ago, I made several posts about why I skip knights and head strait for Calvary. My opinion was challanged, which I respect totaly. But I feel that this is a valid strategy that is usful for the Roman player (IDK if this will work for anyone else, but if you want, give it a spin).

Btw, I think Strakorfsky would find this most interesting.

Okay, I took some time to lay out my style of ancient to medieval age warfare. This of course, applies only to Rome, but I guess you can do the same for the Greeks (I never played them so I wouldn’t really know). I laid it out into simple phases.

To refresh my strategy, I decided to play on a standard size map (something I never did before), just to make this a quick example and since that is the most common map size played. I had a 70% ocean continent, with defaults across. I turned off Barbarians to also make this quick and simple. I’m also setting the game to Regent (my level, still working on Monarch); with no re-spawn players (chasing a civ across the globe early in the game sucks).

Here are my phases. Try to keep up now.

Phase 1
Pant your city at once, and then build three warriors. The first will scout out the area, and if your lucky, you’ll be near or at the coastline, this will give you a better since of I direction. The last two will guard Rome while you then build the barracks. When your science adviser mentions that we need to study a tech, pull up the tech map and select Iron Works at once, and begin looking for areas of Iron. Hopefully you have scouted out enemy positions. Build archers about 5 archers then a settler for a new city, this next city will do the same as Rome, three warriors, and a barracks, then you can either build archers, workers, or settlers. Rome will constantly build archers. Having massed about 10 archers, you head for the nearest enemy city. Once you are at the border, trade whatever techs you can then declare war (don’t trade too early, you want them building Spearmen just yet) and kill them all. I suggest you raze at this time, for several reasons:

A: Corruption in despotism is bad
B: You don’t want to waste military units on garrison duty
C: Slave workers are better then none
D: Razing this early doesn’t hurt you, and any furious civ can be bought with either a tech or some gold

While all of this is happening, your warrior should have another civ. If you’re lucky, this civ is not that far away and this civ doesn’t have Spearmen just yet. Usually, only the former is true. If that’s the case, bring your archers back to disband them in the cities making legionary units (don’t forget to upgrade your warriors). Once you mass a large army of them (again, about 10), send them to the next civ and crush them.

Summery: Only build warriors to scout and defend, then archers. Once Spearmen come around, upgrade to legionary. Avoid any and all other units. You really need to scout more, build only one or two horsemen, but not in mass, you’re limited in cities that can produce, and you need legionary units. Do the math.

Phase 2
Once this second civ is crushed, you basicly guaranteed your domination for the continent, and it suggested your flood the map with settlers. If there is another civ that is not that advanced and easily crushed by this time, do so as well. Your empire should expand into the Middle Ages. Your legionary units will help defend against any knight attacks (the combat calculator over at CivFanatics shows that a Legionary can defend itself about 66% of the time). At this point, you want to skip knights and head for Military Tradition, to pick up the Cavalry, and if you want, Musketmen on the way. The goal here is to beat them to it, and have a very powerful army that could possibly win the game before getting too far into the industrial age.

If you really need to go on the advance and start a war, you’ll need to know the terrain, because your legionary units are the best things you’ve got, and all things considering, still pack a punch. To defend yourself against knight counterattacks, try to stay in jungles and hills and if you can, mountains, your legionary units will be invincible against knights. If you must, use forests. The river is a double edge sword. On the one hand, they help defend legionary units even on open terrain, but they can be murder for them when the legionary unit is attack, particularly if it’s a city. I only attacked at this point in time once, it was long, hard, and bloody, but I won. I suggest that you don’t though, but if you need to, these are the reasons you should:

A: Another civ declared war on you
B: You need a resource (Iron, Horse and Saltpeter are the three you need)
C: You are land locked and need a coastline (rare, but worth it)

Any other reason can wait.

Another issue is government, this I leave up to you. Personally, Republic works for me, but this only an opinion. I tried this once with Monarch, and several times still under despotism. Rome is not a religious civ, so be careful. Also, I suggest you buy some techs, so you don’t miss out on the Chapel, and Cathedral wonders at least.

Summery: Expand like crazy, all the while heading for Cavalry. Don’t go to war; let the war come to you.

Phase 3
You can build Calvary! Congratulations, you are now the most powerful military force of the world, now time to crank them out. There are several things you can do. Mass them all in one spot, or mass them in several locations. I suggest you find these locations, and get a worker to build a fort there for easy reference. Once you know you have enough (when to wake them up, it takes a while for the list to drop down for the “Wake All” command), go to war! Pikemen don’t stand a chance, even in 12+ cities. If any civ got hold of Mustketmen, then expect some losses, but not much.

You may notice, that you ran out of civs to kill on your continent, no matter, build about 4 to 6 galleons (or about 8 to 12 Caravels if you can’t wait), and load them up with Calvary units. I suggest you find a weak civ on the next continent, and take one of their port cities close to yours. Capture the city, and hold it, build culture improvements such as temples and libraries to ward off a flip (this is rare in this case for me). All the while, your entire nation is building Calvary units and shipping them to a port city where an empty ship is waiting. Don’t stop this shipment. Think of it as the Red Ball Express. Have a couple more port cities build transport ships for you as well. Capture a few more cities on the way, to give yourself a real foothold.

If you’re lucky, you just missed a civ building riflemen, if not, congratulations, you conquered the world!

If you’re not lucky, well, you sure are a big boy in this game. Riflemen really screw things up. The situation here would be the same back when you skipped knights and attacked with legionary units.

Summery: Fight hard and kill all at once.

Closing
As you can see, this is a valid strategy. One I hold dear. This can’t be applied to any other civ, because Rome’s UU has the defensiveness of a Pikeman. This lets you ride out this stage of the game, and lets you spend your time B-Lining to Calvary.

I hope this is of some help, and I would like constructive () feedback on this.

[nbarclay]

I regard the strategy of skipping medieval warfare, building a tech lead, and stomping with cavalry as viable for just about any civ depending on the map. Of course you have to have enough room to outresearch and outproduce the AIs with the land you have, but if you can get yourself in that position in the ancient age, you're in the driver's seat.

The down side of the strategy is that it misses out on one of the potential points where offensive action can be effective. The up side is that skipping medieval warfare leaves a lot more room to build wealth and science improvements to get to Military Tradition sooner and out-research the AIs in general. And as you've noted, cavalry can conquer the entire world if they're available soon enough.

The score graph below is from the August CivFanatics GOTM, playing as France. I deliberately sliced off the dates for my original audience, but the year of victory was 1100 AD. I used a simple two-step strategy in that game:

1) Build up a huge tech lead and get cavalry.
2) Stomp.

(Of course the fact that we were playing on Regent level and I can routinely beat Emperor has something to do with how easy the victory was.)

Nathan

[Az]

I find it a valid strategy. Sadly, field conditions in my current game didn't allow me to follow it . ( Romans, Monarch, Large) I was attacked multiple times by the Zulus, and due to the fact that I used my legionaire to force myself on around a a fourth of the continent early on( I really needed those Gems ), my cultural development suffered dearly ,causing a few unnessessary flips.

[Thrawn05]

Thank you for your feedback. I used to be a builder all the way until tanks came out, but when firaxis included the "no respawn player" option, I decided to try out anchient warfare again.

I did mention this a few times from various posts, but I never really given it a full picture. This works very well on giga maps, when you really do have the space to do it.

The fact that Legionary can defend like pikemen, you don't need to spend shields or money to upgrade (for fun, I always keep a couple of Legionary in Rome throughout the game, sort of my praetorian guards ). This can save money to buy those wonder techs.

The time not spent researching knights, is time that you get ahead towards Calvary.

Military academy I guess could be a bonus, but alas... I never ever ever ever got a GL (I bought the game last Dec.).

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by nbarclay
(Of course the fact that we were playing on Regent level and I can routinely beat Emperor has something to do with how easy the victory was.)

Nathan

Lucky, but then, in my mod, emperor has 133% corruption.


I'm still working on monarch, but I usaly lose to either an AI Culture, Diplo, or Space Race win . But I look at the bright side, at least I can last that long to lose.

[Arrian]

Thrawn,

May I offer 1 suggestion? This only works if you do NOT build the Great Library, and DO have Leonardo's. Avoid chivalry. Simply do not research or otherwise acquire it. As you get close to military tradition, start building horsemen. Lots and lots of horsemen. Upon the discovery of MT, you can upgrade them to Cavalry for 50gold each. This will save valueable time, and can be the difference between fighting AI pikemen or musketmen (hot knife through butter) and dealing with riflemen (ugly slugfest).

Cavalry are very powerful units, and can chop up multiple AI empires if you amass enough of them pre-nationalism. I usually do use knights or the equivalent UU, but I have skipped them entirely on occasion, if I felt I needed the entire Medieval era to build up my empire. Sometimes you need a break from war.

-Arrian

[Inverse Icarus]

In my more recent games (pre-uni, i havent played here yet) i've been getting chivalry for two reasons, not only is it a decent weapon until cavalry, the AIs usually skip over it nd you can techwhore it

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Arrian
Sometimes you need a break from war.

WHAT??!!



Actually, very true. A great empire makes for great wars.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Arrian
Thrawn,

May I offer 1 suggestion? This only works if you do NOT build the Great Library, and DO have Leonardo's. Avoid chivalry. Simply do not research or otherwise acquire it. As you get close to military tradition, start building horsemen. Lots and lots of horsemen. Upon the discovery of MT, you can upgrade them to Cavalry for 50gold each. This will save valueable time, and can be the difference between fighting AI pikemen or musketmen (hot knife through butter) and dealing with riflemen (ugly slugfest).

Cavalry are very powerful units, and can chop up multiple AI empires if you amass enough of them pre-nationalism. I usually do use knights or the equivalent UU, but I have skipped them entirely on occasion, if I felt I needed the entire Medieval era to build up my empire. Sometimes you need a break from war.

-Arrian

I do avoid Chivalry. I don't often build GL, but I have once or twice, not crazy about it. Leo's Workshop is a must and I should have added this (sorry).

You know, I guess I would win the game quicker, if I building horsemen all, but I never did. I should try.

Thanks for the jaring my head a little.

One thing I touched on, but didn't dwell on were mustketmen. Most people skip them for riflemen, and rightfully so, but when you already have Legionary unit, it could be worth it to build some in cities that be attacked when you goto war.

[Arrian]

Thrawn,

Glad to provide food for thought. Here's the quick explanation of my idea: would you rather build cavalry at 5 turns per, or build horsemen at 2 turns per and pay 50 per to upgrade them? Obviously, my way requires cash, but a large Roman (commercial) empire should have it.

I don't often build many musketmen from scratch. I do upgrade my pikemen (which are mostly upgraded spears). I don't avoid muskets. The footslogger I do often avoid is the rifleman. My industrial age tech path:

Steam Power
Industrialization
Medicine
Electricity
Scientific Method
Replaceable Parts
Atomic Theory*
Electronics*
* - via ToE

I may research sanitation prior to ToE's completion as well... it depends on how fast I build it. Otherwise, sanitation is next.

The reasons I avoid riflemen:

1) Replaceable Parts isn't all that far away, and provides a far superior unit.
2) Researching nationalism would require a detour from what I consider the essentials of the industrial age: railroads, factories, ToE, Hoover.
3) If there are actually any relatively advanced AI's, I can easily get nationalism & communism out of them later.

If I have really blown past the AI in tech, I will backtrack and research nationalism so I can get to commie and those police stations.

I normally don't miss riflemen, because I've typically done enough damage by that point that I'm not seriously threatened. I'm unlikely to pick a fight during this period because I'm 100% concentrated on industrializing.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

I tend to do the same way Arrian. One thing that may factor into going for Nationalism earlier is if you want to avoid the AI threats and maybe war. If you have the riflemen, they may fear it and not be as aggressive, me I don't care about that as I am warmongering anyway. Another small factor is the same as you pointed out for horses, it is faster to upgrade to infantry than to build from scratch.

[Theseus]

I think Arrian probably upgrades Muskets directly to Infantry. More expensive, but by this point gold is usually not a problem.

I almost never research Nationalism anymore... for a while after the AIs have it, they won;t sell it at any (remotely reasonable) price, and even extorting it is difficult. At some point, however, usually prior to Rep Parts, Nationalism goes waaaay down in value, and I'll buy it then. If I do, I upgrade, and if not, I upgrade directly to Infantry as well.

An interesting exception is in the case of the AU Mod... the 5 attack can be useful.

[Catt]

I find the age of knights a great time to pay back old debts, a great time to generate leaders (lots of wars of attrition), and a great time to capitalize on relative strength - I often have a lot of horsemen ready for upgrade which allows for a stronger offensive force then most AI defensive forces.

I used to research Nationalism, though it wasn't a high priority. I think it was Nathan (nbarclay) who opened my eyes to completely ignoring nationalism - I now have been ignoring Nationalism with fair regularity. My Industrial Age research path looks an awful lot like Arrian's - Steam Power is always first, with a stop-over at Industrialization to get factories up and running (and US if still available) and then finally whatever it takes to get to ToE - with Replaceable Parts following ToE (sometimes Atomic Theory if I can research it before ToE is built).

I also don't often upgrade pikemen to musketmen, and almost never build musketmen. If I'm suffering through an AI invasion, then musketmen may make sense in certain cities, and the lure of riflemen may make Nationalism a more attractive tech - otherwise, I will count on bringing the fight to someone else's cities and/or maintaining peace and later paying the high cost to upgrade pikemen directly to infantry -- the RR's and factories in the interim have probably helped with both the production and gold generation in the meantime.

Catt

[Lord Merciless]

I think researching Nationalism has its merits:
- Improved defense.
- Mobilization possible.
- But most important of all: you can sell it to the AIs for quite some money.

[nbarclay]

My first four research items in the industrial era are almost invariably

- Steam Power
- Industrialization
- Electricity
- Replaceable Parts

I want railroads, I want factories, and I want the faster worker speed Replaceable Parts provides to speed up my railroad construction. The only down side (assuming my tech lead is good enough I don't have to worry about missing ToE) is that I lose some time getting Hoover Dam, but considering the huge impact railroads have on production (including the building of factories), I'm inclined to think it's worth it. Not that I've ever done any kind of formal analysis.

There's also a psychological factor involved. I never automate workers, and I find the micromanagement of building railroads significantly less irritating after I have Replaceable Parts and I don't need as many workers to railroad each tile.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
I think researching Nationalism has its merits:
- Improved defense.
- Mobilization possible.
- But most important of all: you can sell it to the AIs for quite some money.

Is Nationalism really so much more marketable than the other things you could research instead? My inclination is to research down other paths and then trade something else for Nationalism and get a bunch of gold and/or other goodies in the process. Keep in mind that once a few civs have Nationalism, its market value goes way down. Usually, there's someone who has Nationalism and can trade me that but who can't afford to buy my tech in gold, and I can sell my tech to other civs for gold at the same time. Or, probably more likely, I'll get Nationalism thrown into the deal trading my state-of-the-art tech (and maybe some of my luxuries, if necessary) for AI luxuries.

Another possible approach would be to research Nationalism and keep an eye on what the leading AIs are willing to pay for it to figure out when someone's almost finished researching it. Then double-cross them by putting Nationalism on the market yourself, depriving them of the opportunity to sell it. Of course the down sides are (1) it requires close monitoring, which isn't a lot of fun, and (2) if the AI that's in the lead researching Nationalism can't afford to buy it, you have no way of knowing when he's about to discover it.

Incidentally, the "use what an AI is willing to pay to figure out what he's researching and how close he is to finished" trick is a useful manipulation in general if you want to make a profit from selling tech without speeding up AI research too much in the process. Granted, you won't get much out of an AI that's almost finished, but you get the profit from selling the tech to everyone else and, simultaneously, deny the AI that profit.

Nathan

[Arrian]

The AI will sell its soul for Medicine, I can tell you that.

Theseus,

for a while after the AIs have it, they won;t sell it at any (remotely reasonable) price, and even extorting it is difficult. At some point, however, usually prior to Rep Parts, Nationalism goes waaaay down in value, and I'll buy it then.

That is my experience as well.

-Arrian

[Thrawn05]

Thanks for the suggestions. I avoid Horsemen only because the bottom line is that they are no more powerful then archers, (and any unit that retreats is a wimp and traiter!).

Like patton said, I want the other SOB to die for HIS country.


Skipping nationalism is a strange idea, but I will try it out.

Ever since I came up with my knight skipping idea, I tend to win by conquest before nationalism, or just as I or someone else is researching it.

[bbaws]

Got to admit I prefer to leave the AI alone in the ancient era just to make the era of knights and longbowmen a bit more of a challenge. Don't you find that you have actually won the game really early and most of the game is going through the motions until you fulfull a victory conditon?

[Nmintz]

this is a direct reply to whoever got the idea that skipping knights was a good idea:

first off, on higher levels of difficulty, knights and especially riders (if your playing the chinese, one of the best equipped races in the game), are essential as both a defensive bastion (fighting off scores of barbarian horseman, fortifying in occupied cities until a cheaper, pikeman or musketman can be mustered up and brought forward) and on the offensive for deep penetration. The chinese rider is quite possibly the most powerful unit of the time period, with speed that few other units in the game can match. A shock team of two or three elite knights or riders kept close enough to a borer is good enough to make a technologically inferior foe have second thoughts about an offensive.

Need I mention that a knight travelling with a group of longbowmen makes for an awesome fire and manuever combo?


Nathan

[Jaguar]

Samurai are better units, but Rider armies are truly awesome, now that armies have blitz. 3 attacks in a turn....

To deal with nationalism, I wait until a weak civ gets it, and then I have a hoard of cavalry descend on them, wreaking havoc, and I wait until I can get it from them in a peace settlement.

[vmxa1]

JW, that Avatar is very distracting.
I suppose many strategies can be used, but I am never going to skip my Knights or riders. They are very useful and it is a quick upgrade to Calv when the time comes. Calv is so versitale and can be used all the way to the end. I love to send them out to finish of modern units that were bombarded down to 1 HP. The 3 move points allow them to get back to safety. The Samurai are a tough unit at 442.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Nmintz
this is a direct reply to whoever got the idea that skipping knights was a good idea:

first off, on higher levels of difficulty, knights and especially riders (if your playing the chinese, one of the best equipped races in the game), are essential as both a defensive bastion (fighting off scores of barbarian horseman, fortifying in occupied cities until a cheaper, pikeman or musketman can be mustered up and brought forward) and on the offensive for deep penetration. The chinese rider is quite possibly the most powerful unit of the time period, with speed that few other units in the game can match. A shock team of two or three elite knights or riders kept close enough to a borer is good enough to make a technologically inferior foe have second thoughts about an offensive.

Need I mention that a knight travelling with a group of longbowmen makes for an awesome fire and manuever combo?


Nathan

When playing rome, all those legionary units double as Pikemenl so the need to build Pikemen is not needed, and with the 3 attack points, still can be a good offensive units if you really need to. By skipping knights, and heading for Caverly unit, you instantly became the top dog of the game. Just sit down and play defensivly for a while.

I suggest to try it. Play as rome and follow my rules.

Try not to bash it if you havn't tried it.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by vmxa1
JW, that Avatar is very distracting.
I suppose many strategies can be used, but I am never going to skip my Knights or riders.

I'm not converting anyone to try it... I'm just pointing out that it can be done.

[vmxa1]

That is what I said any number of things can be done. I love Rome, but Legions are slow, once 2 or 3 move units appear. Knocking things you have not tired is perfectly acceptable. Do I need to cut off my arm to know it may be painful. Some things can be inferred, given a proper level of knowledge and experience and I am not trying to convet anyone either, just tossing in my .02. I have little dobt you can do very well indeed with you style.

[nbarclay]

The key to making a strategy of skipping knights and going straight for cavalry work lies in building up enough of a tech lead that the cavalry can do some very serious damage before the prospective victims get Nationalism. So yes, there comes a point past which playing on too high a level makes such a strategy unworkable. But for a good enough researcher, there are situations where doing little or no fighting with knights can work well even on Emperor.

As for knights' ability to defend, cavalry have a lot less NEED to defend than knights do because their speed usually lets them strike from outside the attack range of anything short of enemy fast-movers. Longbowmen and swordsmen haven't got a chance if cavalry keep a captured city's radius between them and the enemy until they're ready to strike to the next city. And if enemy knights or cavalry attack under such circumstances, they're dead the next turn even assuming they win. (One of the things that makes Riders so enormously powerful is that they have the same ability to attack without subjecting themselves to enemy counterattack.)

The speed of riders and cavalry also makes for shorter wars, making it easier to capture large amounts of territory as a Republic without war weariness becoming too much of a problem. For a player like me whose entire philosophy is built around the goal of technological supremacy, that makes an enormous difference.

I'm not arguing that skipping knights is appropriate in every game, and if I'm playing China or Japan, I pretty much invariably make heavy use of my UU. But when the right situation comes up, a strategy of passing over knight-era offensives and skipping to cavalry can be immensely powerful.

Nathan Barclay

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by vmxa1
That is what I said any number of things can be done. I love Rome, but Legions are slow, once 2 or 3 move units appear. Knocking things you have not tired is perfectly acceptable. Do I need to cut off my arm to know it may be painful. Some things can be inferred, given a proper level of knowledge and experience and I am not trying to convet anyone either, just tossing in my .02. I have little dobt you can do very well indeed with you style.

So you considering winning before nationalism not doing very well?

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by nbarclay
The key to making a strategy of skipping knights and going straight for cavalry work lies in building up enough of a tech lead that the cavalry can do some very serious damage before the prospective victims get Nationalism. So yes, there comes a point past which playing on too high a level makes such a strategy unworkable. But for a good enough researcher, there are situations where doing little or no fighting with knights can work well even on Emperor.

As for knights' ability to defend, cavalry have a lot less NEED to defend than knights do because their speed usually lets them strike from outside the attack range of anything short of enemy fast-movers. Longbowmen and swordsmen haven't got a chance if cavalry keep a captured city's radius between them and the enemy until they're ready to strike to the next city. And if enemy knights or cavalry attack under such circumstances, they're dead the next turn even assuming they win. (One of the things that makes Riders so enormously powerful is that they have the same ability to attack without subjecting themselves to enemy counterattack.)

The speed of riders and cavalry also makes for shorter wars, making it easier to capture large amounts of territory as a Republic without war weariness becoming too much of a problem. For a player like me whose entire philosophy is built around the goal of technological supremacy, that makes an enormous difference.

I'm not arguing that skipping knights is appropriate in every game, and if I'm playing China or Japan, I pretty much invariably make heavy use of my UU. But when the right situation comes up, a strategy of passing over knight-era offensives and skipping to cavalry can be immensely powerful.

Nathan Barclay

Perhaps I should restate it here to make sure someone sees it (because I don't think that many people are reading my post fully), this only works if you play as Rome. The extra defensive point helps out.

I doubt that this system would work for any other civ.

[Konquest02]

In my last game (Babylon, Regent, standard map, all random) I played peacefully in the early game, expanding my borders really aggressively with the cheap cultural buildings available when playing the Babs. I gained as much territory as possible (read more than all AI) then started to build horsemen.
I didn't resaerched Chivalry and maintained good relations with my neighbors (Persia and Zulu). Up to Military Tradition, I have never been in a serious war and I have a tech and score lead. Once, the Aztecs (2 ladmasses away) declared war because I didn't give them 14 gold although I haven't seen a single unit in the whole war. I sued for peace and they game me all their treasaury.
When I reached millitary tradition, I had a 2-3 tech lead in this branch, although I was really late in the other branch (have not reached education). I took my cavs and destroyed Zululand. They got allied with America, which was far away. I got Astronomy from the Zulu and upgarded my galleys to caravels and destroyed half of their empire.

The moral is: Even though you sacrifice part of your tech lead to get to military tradition, you can get them back in a matter of a few turns. Note that this would not have worked as well if I didn't skip knights and if I didn't build Leo's workshop.

--Kon--

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Thrawn05
Perhaps I should restate it here to make sure someone sees it (because I don't think that many people are reading my post fully), this only works if you play as Rome. The extra defensive point helps out.

I doubt that this system would work for any other civ.

There may be some nuances to your specific variant of the knight-skipping strategy that only work for Rome, but Rome certainly does not have a monopoly on the fundamental concept If you're high on the power graph, you can usually avoid war even with very little standing army. And if other civs don't attack, the military advantages of legions make no difference to the viability of a strategy that avoids attacking with knights. I even played one game where as the Germans, I captured Moscow early with archers but didn't engage in any more fighting until I had panzers! It worked because with Russia pruned back early, I was able to grab enough land to research quickly up to the modern era without further fighting (and culture flipping two or three English cities didn't hurt).

Nathan Barclay