MOD Discussion: Ages of Man!

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by Dale
The worst bug I found was it didn't check for other player's cities, and would try to put one of mine on top of an AI's.

is that a bug or a feature? migrants taking over the control is one of those ideas some rightwing politicians are always warning us of
and,btw no i'm really not rw.

Originally posted by Dale
But the next version is a whole lot better.

thought so, i guess thats why its called an alphaversion. just wanted to let you know of these occurances to help. sorry if it did sound like an offense. i really appreccieate your great work

[Dale]

No offense taken. That's why we post our scripts, to see if others can find bugs we don't. When I'm testing a script, I'll usually only play about 20 turns, cheating all the way trying to cause all possible occurances. Unfortunately, being human we can tend to not think of some.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

hm, in my new game the barbarians seem to become the strongest "nation" around since their cities also use the new settling system and i guess the have no city limit to their government?

fortunately i got the great wall and hope to soon go hunting barbs with large stacks including slavers

and of course that city of mine in the middle of a huge mountain range will be fine to defend :wink:

btw i noticed a real fine function, after the bantus agreed to withdraw their troops immeadiately disappeared from my land (is that the same withdraw script as in mm2?) unfortunately i can't see a way i might use that funtion for my own units, which makes the ai rather angry since i needed3 turns to get out of their territory

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

hihi, those slaves sometimes become autoconverted to setttlers/newcities

but seeing how those cities are placed i would really need a food improvement on mountains.

will try my first steps into modding by including somewhat like cradles latifundia for mountains.

if i just include it into the terrainimprovements will the ai be able to use it or does that require more work?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

just made another interesting observation, though i guess it has nothing to do with this mod:
great wall forbids barbarian units to attack you, but not to bombard you with catapults, maybe thats humanitarian bombardment or something like that?

on the other hand i can't remember seeing barbarian catapults in the vanilla game... or me building the great wall

[child of Thor]

I played until around 2000bc yesterday.
I was a bit taken a back when my first city spawned itself, thought it was a damn AI for a sec!
I like it! Maybe they need to spawn a little further apart, or even possibly a more random distance? - my empire began to look very symetrical by the time i'd stopped playing. How tactical is it in its decision to place a city? If you could add a random variable to city distance placement it might take more advantage of trade goods on the map?
A few times it missed the opportunity to get a trade good by a tile or two's distance, maybe because of the set placement(i'm just guessing on that as it just seemed very symetrical with city placement?). But in general i like this new system - i can imagine the civ3 fans having a heart attack over it though! What no settlers to move around at all!?

How about a combination of both the old and the new? you can still build the settler unit - for those tactical city placements that the player decides. And you also get the new city spread, but maybe at a reduced rate - to represent the gradual spread of a population?

When viewing diplomatic proposals the screen would sometimes get a bit confused(and the AI diplomacy). for example when asking for a cease-fire , the extra pop-up window comes up so you can set for how long(short/medium/long), sometimes once you had clicked off this window the main diplo window would reset the offer for a cease fire, so you had to start again and eventualy it would work!This kind of thing happened a few times, only when the new pop-ups were on though?

Overall this is really promising - i had the AI organise counter strikes after i had taken one of their cities. After a few turns they sent an army(5) after the city i had just taken, which was just to draw my attention as a loose(they weren't in one stack)collection of 9 units went straight to attack my Capitol! O.k they didn't attack in one stack either(so i survived) but the intent was there.

I only met two AI's and was at war with both of them fairly early(no change there then) - the slight confusion with the new diplomacy options was the only thing i really noticed might be a problem.

I like this population and city spread thing - it really speeds up those early 'waiting for something' blues that plauges CTP2 early on. I think once this has been balanced out a bit more and with the addition of upgradable units and all the other bits, AoM is going to be very fun to play.
Nice one Dale

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Originally posted by child of Thor
my empire began to look very symetrical by the time i'd stopped playing.

yep. additionally it would be necessary to teach those settlers it is wiser sourrounding mountain ranges which will give great production benefits once the sourrounding cities expand rather than placing lots of cities with small distances right in it

Originally posted by child of Thor
i can imagine the civ3 fans having a heart attack over it though! What no settlers to move around at all!?

Originally posted by child of Thor
How about a combination of both the old and the new? you can still build the settler unit - for those tactical city placements that the player decides.

no, don't think so. i really love the new way already now and will be addicted to it, when it improves.
only question remains how to handle expansion over the oceans to new continents.
maybe that might be triggered by unrests between anglicans and protestants?

Originally posted by child of Thor
And you also get the new city spread, but maybe at a reduced rate - to represent the gradual spread of a population?

well, maybe the question of will we go abroad and form a city of our own or just stay at the place i was born might be connected to the situation in the hometown (overcrowding, pollution, happiness, distress between different ethnical or religious .... hmm, maybe that would be hard to teach the game)
this might even lead to the other way round, citizens of some dull towns in the outbacks deciding to move to that booming capital with theatres, great jobs in advertising companies, and the big discos?

Originally posted by child of Thor
When viewing diplomatic proposals the screen would sometimes get a bit confused(and the AI diplomacy). for example when asking for a cease-fire , the extra pop-up window comes up so you can set for how long(short/medium/long), sometimes once you had clicked off this window the main diplo window would reset the offer for a cease fire, so you had to start again and eventualy it would work!This kind of thing happened a few times, only when the new pop-ups were on though?

yep. there a lots of problems like that, but i guess thats babyillness

Originally posted by child of Thor
I only met two AI's and was at war with both of them fairly early(no change there then) - the slight confusion with the new diplomacy options was the only thing i really noticed might be a problem.

well, the tech tree would really need some tinkering, but afaik dale wanted a new tech tree and unit system anyway. but i got a really hard time in that above mentioned game with 28 barbarian cities at my borders after someone invented cavalry tactics in 720 B.C.

btw. in my new game i have met 5 ais so far, two of them peaceful diplomats and after a few rounds of friendly map trading and peace and withdraw treaties the asked my for military pacts, hope i can count on them when the mexicans start their invasion hwich might happen rather soon :-(

[Dale]

Maybe they need to spawn a little further apart, or even possibly a more random distance? - my empire began to look very symetrical by the time i'd stopped playing. How tactical is it in its decision to place a city? If you could add a random variable to city distance placement it might take more advantage of trade goods on the map?
A few times it missed the opportunity to get a trade good by a tile or two's distance, maybe because of the set placement(i'm just guessing on that as it just seemed very symetrical with city placement?). But in general i like this new system - i can imagine the civ3 fans having a heart attack over it though! What no settlers to move around at all!?

The colonists have evolved quite a bit since their humble early beginnings in that last upload. The colonists look for a square within radius 5, 6 & 7 now, as opposed to only radius 5 before. The trade goods have been beefed up so there's more weight on them. But just remember, if there's a trade good inland in an ordinary spot, the colonists are still going to choose that coastal/grassland/defended square. There is an element of randomness in it now too. If the AI finds a number of squares of the same weighting, then it will pick a random one. Of course, all this depends heavily on your colonisation policy. If you choose coastal policies over inland, you are going to end up with a massive amount of coastal cities. If you change it to inland, you'll get your mountain cities.

How about a combination of both the old and the new? you can still build the settler unit - for those tactical city placements that the player decides. And you also get the new city spread, but maybe at a reduced rate - to represent the gradual spread of a population?

no, don't think so. i really love the new way already now and will be addicted to it, when it improves.
only question remains how to handle expansion over the oceans to new continents.
maybe that might be triggered by unrests between anglicans and protestants?

There will be a mix of the two, but the mix will come in a long time down the years. There is no settler building till Epoche 4. This is the start of the Age Of Discovery.

When viewing diplomatic proposals the screen would sometimes get a bit confused(and the AI diplomacy). for example when asking for a cease-fire , the extra pop-up window comes up so you can set for how long(short/medium/long), sometimes once you had clicked off this window the main diplo window would reset the offer for a cease fire, so you had to start again and eventualy it would work!This kind of thing happened a few times, only when the new pop-ups were on though?

Unfortunately, cuz I use Peter's NewDiplomod there is still a big or two in the script. I'll look at it after all the rest of the good stuff is in.

Overall this is really promising - i had the AI organise counter strikes after i had taken one of their cities. After a few turns they sent an army(5) after the city i had just taken, which was just to draw my attention as a loose(they weren't in one stack)collection of 9 units went straight to attack my Capitol! O.k they didn't attack in one stack either(so i survived) but the intent was there.

Ummm....... you do realise you're playing against a vanilla CTP2 AI? I haven't started on the AI yet.

well, the tech tree would really need some tinkering, but afaik dale wanted a new tech tree and unit system anyway. but i got a really hard time in that above mentioned game with 28 barbarian cities at my borders after someone invented cavalry tactics in 720 B.C.

I like the fact that the Barbs can get a leg up in this MOD. Mongol hordes anyone?

I like this population and city spread thing - it really speeds up those early 'waiting for something' blues that plauges CTP2 early on. I think once this has been balanced out a bit more and with the addition of upgradable units and all the other bits, AoM is going to be very fun to play.

One of my main goals was to get the player involved from turn 1, like in WAW.

Thanks. I hope it will be fun to play.

[Dale]

BTW, has anyone played on a Gigantic map yet? How's the terrain layout?

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

i'm playing on a gigantic map. hence those clumpy moutain ranges

[child of Thor]

I'll choose gigantic next time.As for the AI, it seems quite agro for vanilla CTP2,maybe it's quietly been evolving over the years! Your answers make me look forward to this mod eagerly-glad you decided to come back

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

well in terms of diplomacy the ai is much better than the vanilla game, but i never noticed the different lnghts of treaties in vanilla so far
about warfaring as far as a i have seen so far (not having any real war yet) it just behaves as it should, vanilla style

[Dale]

Here's an update of how I'm progressing:

- Tech tree finalised to 0AD: Christianity
- Epoche 1 & 2 units running around the map
- All previous stuff refined

To be done next:
- Unit stat refinement
- Buildings
- Wonders
- Tile Imps

I've attached the Tech Tree and design doc which are both pretty much finalised and static. Though suggestions welcome.

[Adriano]

I've just red about the new project and... I'M HAVING AN ORGASM!!.....


Could you add an Helycopter attack unit?

Why do you want to eliminate the Diamond era?
...

[Dale]

*bump*

..... and also essentially to provide an update. I've currently got all techs in up to Christianity, and 95% of the units in that era. Most of the buildings and wonders are also in. At the moment, I'm just finishing up the entering of the pieces, fixing a couple of sprite/pic problems, and trying to work out the best science costs for techs. Once that's complete, I'll upload an alpha to play with up until Christianity. Should give a very good idea how the game's going to play.

BTW, sorry it's taking so long, but I've been splitting my PC time between AOM and Medieval: Total War the last few weeks.

[mapfi]

Just had a look through the NEW_diplomod slic because I still can't get the LogRegardEvent to work and found one line where the fifth arguement in the function is missing. Didn't count the lines but I think it'll be rather easy to spot.
Looking forward to the alpha. MTW is a buy then?

[child of Thor]

Originally posted by Dale
edit........

BTW, sorry it's taking so long, but I've been splitting my PC time between AOM and Medieval: Total War the last few weeks.

Medieval eh? It's very nice ain't it..........i must admit i'm playing a fair bit too at the mo(that and swos on the amiga!!!!!), still i'll be back to CTP2 next weekend +i'll have a look at the tech tree thingy

[Dale]

Yep, M:TW is a

It needs a patch though. (expected anytime now).

[Dale]

*bump*

Getting closer now........

I want to put out an Alpha to 1500AD, start of the Age of Discovery. I've just got a few lose ends to tie up (like the upgrading script) and it'll be ready.

Here's the AOM charts file...... comments welcomed as I know it's not perfect yet.

[J Bytheway]

Looks good, by and large. I'm not sure about some of the tech names, though. Pythagoras was a person (except I don't think he really was, but that's not important), how can he be a tech? And what is Earth's circumference supposed to represent?

Also some likle Roman Calander and Hours and Minutes are a little specific. There's nothing special about Hours and Minutes themselves, it's more the concept of measuring time. I probably would have called it something like Precision Timekeeping, but 'precise' is a little too context dependant (Minutes are precise for sundials, but not for mechanical clocks). I'm sure there's a better name. Maybe Temporal Units - but that sounds rather overscientific.

It's a shame so many of the techs are lacking results, it would be nice to give them all something, even if it's only a little SLIC trigger which donates some gold or PW, or a breif happiness bonus. Perhaps something like in Civ2 when the first to research Philosophy gets a free tech.

There are also some typos - Latitude was spelt Lattitude, and Archimede's should be Archimedes's (Archimedes' is probably OK too - I could argue for hours about that with some people I know).

It really does look good though .

[mapfi]

I agree with John. Looks good.
Two things:
Mobile Tactics: As soon as men had horses they used them in battle, so what's the meaning of this tech and why would it allow a mounted archer? Why is horse riding and archery not enough?
What happened to Polytheism? And why does the oracle require monotheism? The old greeks would certainly disagree...

[Dale]

John:

Yeah, I know some of the techs are wierdly named, but those particular "people" discovered important things. EG: Pythagorus discovered the properties of triangles among many other things. As for what things represent, they will be in the GL obviously. But for Earth's Circumference as you asked, it indicates the first fairly accurate estimate of the circumference of the world. After being rediscovered at the end of the Dark Ages, it gave Columbus the great idea to sail west, and we know where that got him!

Specific techs like Roman Calender are important. The Romans needed an extremely accurate calender to co-ordinate large empire things like wars, reinforcements, etc, so the Gregorian Calender (commonly known as the Roman Calender) was formulated. It was the first calender to recognise that an Earth year is not absolute to days (leap year). Hours and Minutes are important as it provided the work force with accurate time-keeping, beginning of labour movements, unions, time as a compartmentalised concept, etc.

I know there's some typos in, but where did you learn English?? When a word ends in "s", you don't put another "s" after an apostraphe! And you're a Pom too, you should know it's your language!

Mapfi:
Mobile Tactics indicates real mobile strategies. Beforehand mounted warriors weren't much better than foot, unorganised, didn't know how to utilise horse, etc. It's the formality of war-horse training.

Polytheism was around long before 8000BC! Polytheism is the worship of many Gods, and the mega-anchient Civs already did that before settling. EG: Australian aborigines had the Dreamtime with something like 200 Gods 40,000 years ago.

[J Bytheway]

Originally posted by Dale
I know there's some typos in, but where did you learn English?? When a word ends in "s", you don't put another "s" after an apostraphe! And you're a Pom too, you should know it's your language!

I'm afraid you do. The most official source I could find quickly was http://www.bartleby.com/68/26/5226.html (Columbia Guide to Standard American English). I couldn't find a vaguely official site on British English, but all the ones I looked at agreed with me. When adding a possessive to a singular form you *always* add 's - even if it already ends with an s.

[Tamerlin]

I won't have the time to test your mod until December but it's good to see you are back and working on a new mod. The SAP 2.0 is the reason why CtP2 is the game I play the most.

About the AoM, the new concepts are really interesting.

[Dale]

Originally posted by J Bytheway


I'm afraid you do. The most official source I could find quickly was http://www.bartleby.com/68/26/5226.html (Columbia Guide to Standard American English). I couldn't find a vaguely official site on British English, but all the ones I looked at agreed with me. When adding a possessive to a singular form you *always* add 's - even if it already ends with an s.

Great! Now I gotta go through the strings and fix them all!

Nah, screw ya's. You can wait till "I get around to it".

BTW, it's ready. I don't know how it'll go, but it's ready.

[Devil of Truth]

Now, now boys... allow a citizen from another of Her Majesty’s colonies to set you straight...

The apostrophe in the possessive form of a noun is placed after the complete noun but before the s which forms the possessive; a dog's life, Poets' Corner, children's books. In the case of a name ending in a sibilant, the possessive is usually formed by adding 's if the name has one syllable, and the apostrophe only if it has two or more syllables: Keats's poems, Dickens' novels etc.

[J Bytheway]

That's even more confusing . You can rarely get differing sources to agree about all points of the use of apostrophes. Personally I don't mind the apostrophe-only version anywhere, it's certainly in common useage. I just prefer the convention of always adding 's because that makes it obvious whether you're talking about a singular or plural. If you use DoT's Dickens' you don't know whether that's one Dickens or many of them. It reduces redundancy, and I'm a great fan of redundancy.

[Maquiladora]

Dale, will you be doing anymore work on the diplomacy side of things for AOM? I particularly enjoy having alliances or at least having amicable relations with a least one of the AI, it just feels more enjoyable and immersive. I know having an alliance with an AI would make it easier for the human in some situations but its just great to feel its not just you against all the AI's sometimes and it is about gameplay right and not just making the game harder?

[Dale]

I think I'll just leave the apostraphe's where they are. It's my Mod, anyways.

Maq:

The diplomacy I'm using is Peter's NewDiplomod with a few changes. I've modified it a little to try and eliminate bugs. For instance, you don't automatically get embassies back when you make peace. You have to go and do them again.