The Carthaginians

Palaiologos · September 4, 2002, 16:23

Recently information has been released about the extra civs of PTW, and among them the Carthaginians.

Their leader is Hannibal Barca which is acceptable

I would suggest Hamilcar Barca.

Hannibal was never a politician.He only became senator after the war.His father however yielded much power and to my opinion he would be more suiting for a leader.

Whoever it is he should be titled Senator not King as i have seen on some screenshots. Carthage was ruled by a senate not a monarchy.

Their Great leaders will propably be:

Hamilcar
Hasdrubal
Hanno
Bomilcar
Mago
Boodes(he was a senator but what the hell!)

Their traits are commercial(most appropiate) and industrius.

I would have suggested expansionist.

After the First War the Punics started Empire building in Spain, and before that they continuisly opposed the Greeks for domination of Sicily. They had established colonies in Sardinia, Sicily and Spain and they are said to have reached the Americas.

The most weird of all however is their UU, the Numidian mercenary.

First of all the Numidians were known for their excellent cavalry which under Massinisa triumped time after time against the Romans in the Second Punic War. Numidian Infantry was used but they were essentially light javelin men and were not considered first rate troops.

Their stats are 2/3/1 and they replace spearman.This makes them almost a superunit in ancient and medieval era. Furthermore Bowmen and hoplites lose their usefullness. Why would a Punic player build archers when his Numidians are cheaper and better?

The must have a disavantage somewhere. Fireaxis must have thought of those things. Numidians will unbalance the game.

They could have Phoenician infantry or the "Sacred Band", or even a phoenician trireme which surpassed the Greek ones in speed and manouvrability

Any thoughts, agreements/disagreements and most importanly information would be welcome.

P.S Has anyone seen a portrait of Hannibal in PTW?

Firebird · September 4, 2002, 16:34

I don't know all that much about the Carthaginians, but after what I read here and elsewhere in the forums, I agree with you. And that unit does seem a bit like a superunit.

WarpStorm · September 4, 2002, 17:59

1. Who said they were cheaper?
2. I think the super-unit is the Gallic Swordsman 3/2/2

ixnay · September 4, 2002, 18:25

I hope that Hannibal at least has the title of General, and not King, as has been mentioned before.

Palaiologos · September 4, 2002, 18:29

Since they replace spearman they must have the same cost.

In civ3 the UUs only have a change in stats not cost.
I've heard that some UUs in PTW will have decreased costs but nothing is mentioned about an increase.

That could be it.

ixnay · September 4, 2002, 18:44

I believe I heard that the Carthaginian UU will have an increased cost somewhere. Possibly the latest Gamespot preview.

WarpStorm · September 4, 2002, 20:48

Why must they have the same cost? There is nothing in the game mechanics that would require this.

Oerdin · September 4, 2002, 21:31

Carthage does belong in but maybe it might have been better to have the Phenicians since Carthage was just the largest Phenician colony.

Palaiologos · September 5, 2002, 04:26

Yes, Phoenicians would better fit in the game. After all Carthage lasted for only about 450 years.

Palaiologos · September 5, 2002, 04:28

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Why must they have the same cost? There is nothing in the game mechanics that would require this.

I don't understand. I thought i stated my agreement with you on the cost subject.

WarpStorm · September 5, 2002, 07:22

Sorry.

des-esseintes · September 5, 2002, 10:27

Wtf this is totally lame. Increased cost for spearmen?? Then why would you build spearmen? Their best use is for medium/quick defense in newly founded cities, not as the main component of your army. A 30 shields spearman would totally change its own applicability, if not destroy it totally.

Hagbart · September 5, 2002, 12:36

Hannibal is the only right leader of the Carthagians!

Hagbart · September 5, 2002, 12:37

And no we've not seen Hannibals portrait yet. It will be shown eventually...

The Bloody Baro · September 5, 2002, 20:43

Well 450 years is longer than the U.S.

Bambul · September 6, 2002, 00:15

And about 449 years longer than East Timor

Palaiologos · September 6, 2002, 12:51

Quote:

Originally posted by des-esseintes
Wtf this is totally lame. Increased cost for spearmen?? Then why would you build spearmen? Their best use is for medium/quick defense in newly founded cities, not as the main component of your army. A 30 shields spearman would totally change its own applicability, if not destroy it totally.

But the Carthaginian sperman has increased attack and defence characteristics, making it an effective unit on the battlefield just like swordsman.

Yes they would loose some usefullness but they will gain battlefield supermacy on the early era.

Palaiologos · September 6, 2002, 12:53

Quote:

Originally posted by The Bloody Baro
Well 450 years is longer than the U.S.

The USA shouldn't be in the game anyway.

Palaiologos · September 6, 2002, 12:56

And how about their traits, any disagreements?

The Bloody Baro · September 6, 2002, 19:59

Well historicly for the game the Carthagians should be Religous and Commercial for

A: Fought Rome for Commercial sea lanes in the Meditterearn [sp] 3 times.

B: They toss babies into fires to please their gods.

But for the game I'm happy they added another Ind, Com so I can play that way without being the retarded French.

Coracle · September 6, 2002, 20:13

Quote:

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Recently information has been released about the extra civs of PTW, and among them the Carthaginians.

Their leader is Hannibal Barca which is acceptable

I would suggest Hamilcar Barca.

Hannibal was never a politician. . .

P.S Has anyone seen a portrait of Hannibal in PTW?

That's an extremely good point I had not thought of.

You're right.

"A portrait of Hannibal"? There is a problem here. On certain black or African-oriented sites I have seen Hannibal depicted as looking more like Shaka than a PHOENICIAN.

Neither Hannibal nor Cleopatra were "black". I trust we will NOT see some Politically Correct image from Firaxis.

Palaiologos · September 7, 2002, 06:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Coracle

That's an extremely good point I had not thought of.

You're right.

"A portrait of Hannibal"? There is a problem here. On certain black or African-oriented sites I have seen Hannibal depicted as looking more like Shaka than a PHOENICIAN.

Neither Hannibal nor Cleopatra were "black". I trust we will NOT see some Politically Correct image from Firaxis.

Actually i have been suspecting the same thing when they released the portraits of all the leaders except Hannibal.

I was reluctant to mention it in fear of getting classified as a "racist" and perhaps getting banned from Apolyton.

But since you made the start.....

Hannibal was not black as neither were the Phoenicians in general. There is no mention in the ancient texts of them being black ,quite on the contrary. All north Africans of the time were whites. Even the Numidians were dark skinned, not black(they fell to the Negroe category though).

Fireaxis has long proven her indiference to historical accuracy.

The stats of their UU are 2/3/1? ABSURD!!

Then the lightly armed Numidians were more effective in combat than the heavily armed,heavily armoured, professional Hoplite heavy infantry.

Palaiologos · September 7, 2002, 08:55

Fireaxis has a tendency to make a mokery of the leaders(just look at Medieval ages Shaka) and they will possibly do it again with Hannibal.

However the greatest insult to history would be a Negroe Hannibal.

They have listened to propaganda once(Turks), there is no reason they won't listen again.

Black Hannibal, black Cleopatra, black Athena...

What's next, black Socrates?

WarpStorm · September 7, 2002, 09:51

Wow, Coracle's alive.

Hagbart · September 7, 2002, 13:06

Who have ever said that Hannibal or the majority of "Carthagians" were black? I think it is common knowledge that they were more like Italians/Spanish.

But they weren't exactly Norwegians either...

Hagbart · September 7, 2002, 13:07

And who have claimed that Athena or Socrates were black? I have not.

Palaiologos · September 7, 2002, 18:24

But Hagbart i was not reffering to you....

We were just discussing a possibility.

There is a lot of talk here in Greece about this african-oriented movement of making everybody who lived close to Africa a Negroe.

There is a book written by some American ,whose name eludes me at the momment, tittled "BLACK ATHENA".

He claims that ancient Greeks were Negroes.

Fortunately this movement has no influnce outside America.

Palaiologos · September 9, 2002, 22:02

Why do many think that Carthaginians should be religious? The only ones who claimed that they throwed children in the fire were the Romans who were their ancestral enemies.

The Greek sources claim they sacrificed themselves.

It was a Phoenician custom to sacrifice things in general in the fire.

But i don't think their savage religious customs clasify them as fanatics or fundamentalists, since i think that is what the religious trait implies.

Fredric Drum · September 10, 2002, 09:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Hagbart
Who have ever said that Hannibal or the majority of "Carthagians" were black? I think it is common knowledge that they were more like Italians/Spanish.

But they weren't exactly Norwegians either...

You couldn't help but throw in a comment about the Norwegians, could you?

XOR · September 10, 2002, 09:52

Quote:

There is a book written by some American ,whose name eludes me at the momment, tittled "BLACK ATHENA".

Budha was black :P

Well, Chinese made a budha that was chinese, indos made a budha with an Indo look and indochinese made each their own budha image as if he was of the same etnic group as the locals. I think I once saw pictures of a budha with afro apearance, but I didnt note it at the moment because the statue itself was actually white, could have been made of ivory now that I think of it.