Global Warming Question

chadinark · September 4, 2002, 16:34

is it possible, by say, for example, cleaning up all the pollution, to reverse the effects of global warming once they have reached critical levels (bright red sun icon), or is it just too late at some point?

Wormwood · September 4, 2002, 17:07

Do you mean the terrain effects? I don't think those can be altered, a la Civ2, through massive terraforming.

DRoseDARs · September 4, 2002, 17:15

If I'm reading your question correctly: You cannot undo the effects of global warming once they occur (ie: Grasslands near Such'N'Such City have turned into Plains due to Global Warming), but I believe if most if not all the pollution in the world is cleaned-up PRIOR to such an effect (both the pollution in your civ and AI civ) then the effects of global warming can be forestalled even prevented if cleaned-up fast enough. Don't quote me on that, though.

Unfortunately, this very simple concept continues to elude comprehension by certain unnamed Presidents and Administrations...sigh...with Canada and Russia on board, the Kyoto Accords are pretty much International "Law" now, so at least there's that to go on...

alexman · September 4, 2002, 17:33

I think he was asking whether you can make the bright red sun icon go back to a whiter color and hence reduce the risk of global warming.

The answer is that it's possible, but since you can't control what the AI is doing, it's not probable. I believe the color of the sun depends on the total number of yellow polution triangles produced by all the cities in the world. If all cities of all nations suddenly got mass transit and recycling plants, or fell under size 12 and had no factories (and of course nobody was nuking) then the risk of global warming would actually decrease and you would see the sun go back to a lighter color.

Zachriel · September 4, 2002, 18:22

Quote:

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
. . . I believe if most if not all the pollution in the world is cleaned-up PRIOR to such an effect (both the pollution in your civ and AI civ) then the effects of global warming can be forestalled even prevented if cleaned-up fast enough. Don't quote me on that, though.

Quoting DRoseDARs

"Global Warming" in the game is more properly thought of as desertification. Desertification in Civ3 is caused by the pollution created per turn in each city (see city screen), not by the number of polluted tiles. Other Civ's pollution does not appear to effect your own Civ's degree of desertification. Building "green" city improvements will help reduce the deterioration of the environment. Also, trees will help as damaged tree tiles will just kill the trees, which can then be replanted with the underlying terrain left untouched.

vmxa1 · September 4, 2002, 19:25

If only your pollution effected you, then it must be more than the triangles in your cities. I run as green as I could and made no manf plants, but still got nailed for desertification. I suspect that world pollution has an impact as well. If so you are doomed as the AI will not do such a good job. I also wonder if the population is impacting warming, regardless of any green attempts. IOW if you have lots of size 20's or 30's size cities, you will get hit. Greening does slow it down though.

WarpStorm · September 4, 2002, 20:39

Firaxis has said that polution on the ground does not affect global warming. It is caused by having pollution icons in your cities and by using nukes. You can test this yourself with a custom scenario (I did).

WarpStorm · September 4, 2002, 20:43

Oh yeah, the actual polluted tile can turn worse even if the global warming isn't bad if it's not cleaned up soon enough. (I tested this too).

DRoseDARs · September 4, 2002, 22:51

God I miss the ability to do a little terraforming...

WarpStorm · September 5, 2002, 07:16

Global warming in Civ3 is caused by all civs not just yours.

Zachriel · September 5, 2002, 07:59

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Global warming in Civ3 is caused by all civs not just yours.

I would be more than willing to admit error in my previous post, but I would need more proof. I believe the gamemakers decided not to punish players who keep their own neighborhoods clean. Also, it does not match my experience. In my current game, during the industrial age, I had a problem with global warming. Once the "green" improvements of the modern age were completed, global warming essentially ended. Meanwhile, my rival has continued to pollute the environment.

Clarification of this would be very helpful to many players.

Quote:

Oh yeah, the actual polluted tile can turn worse even if the global warming isn't bad if it's not cleaned up soon enough. (I tested this too).

What exactly do you mean? What sort of test?
Thanks!

WarpStorm · September 5, 2002, 08:51

The second test is easy to do. Make a map and put a tile of pollution near your start city. Start playing and keep an eye on it. It will eventually turn to desert if you don't clean it up even though there is no chance of global warming (no sun showing).

chadinark · September 5, 2002, 11:37

back to normal? i mean once land has "desertified," is it possible to bring it back to its original state?
thanks
chad

btw thanks for all the great responses!!!

vondrack · September 5, 2002, 11:44

Quote:

Originally posted by chadinark
back to normal? i mean once land has "desertified," is it possible to bring it back to its original state?
thanks
chad

btw thanks for all the great responses!!!

No terraforming allowed in Civ3, sorry. Once you go desert with your tile, it stays desert forever.

chadinark · September 5, 2002, 11:47

Quote:

Originally posted by vondrack

No terraforming allowed in Civ3, sorry. Once you go desert with your tile, it stays desert forever.

that really sux
they need to change that
i mean what is the justification for not allowing it
they had it in civ 2...

Wormwood · September 5, 2002, 12:16

I think they meant for the effects of global warming to be more permanent, to force you to actually care about how much pollution and harm to the world you are creating.

vmxa1 · September 5, 2002, 12:34

It is true that pollution left uncleared will do damage regardless of Warming.
My experience is that players can not avoid warming regardless of what they do, unless they keep the pop below thresholds. I am not sure even that will work if the AI pollutes and it will. So what I am saying is you will suffer from the others bad deeds. To some extent that makes sense. Some forms of pollution have effects outside of the borders, some don't Trash in my yard does not hurt others 4000 miles away, but a nuclear test could or if I pollute a share waterway, such as a river or the ocean.

ALPHA WOLF 64 · September 5, 2002, 13:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Wormwood
I think they meant for the effects of global warming to be more permanent, to force you to actually care about how much pollution and harm to the world you are creating.

this would be fine if i had some way of forcing the AIs to reduce pollution. the AIs dont seem to care at all about pollution. I wish you could turn off the pollution aspect of the game since it is so poorly implemented.

WarpStorm · September 5, 2002, 14:15

The tool is there. Just conquer them. If you aren't willing to go to war over it, you just don't believe in it strongly enough.

Zachriel · September 5, 2002, 14:28

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
The second test is easy to do. Make a map and put a tile of pollution near your start city. Start playing and keep an eye on it. It will eventually turn to desert if you don't clean it up even though there is no chance of global warming (no sun showing).

Very interesting. I never would have known as I never leave that ugly orange stuff laying around long enough to find out.

Now about the "global" aspect of global warming, do we have any definite evidence of that?

Zachriel · September 5, 2002, 14:32

Quote:

Originally posted by WarpStorm
The tool is there. Just conquer them. If you aren't willing to go to war over it, you just don't believe in it strongly enough.

Would that make you somewhat of a radical environmentalist?

Would you nuke them into submission on the pollution issue?

XOR · September 5, 2002, 14:59

Pollution is fine, is just global warming what they should disable. If they dont I'm gonna be making a mess in MP and have some fun over it anyway so I'm not going to cry about it, I'll just take it the way they give it and have fun with it. :P

vmxa1 · September 5, 2002, 15:08

I would like either an option to turn off (don't say editor) or give us back terraforming to fix the land.

chadinark · September 5, 2002, 15:41

i guess that it is better to have the pollution modeled the way they have it, b/c after all it is what is happening in the real world and little is being done about it...

however, they should have included a terraforming advance (perhap as a future tech) b/c it is at least possible that some day this technology may actually exist

Wormwood · September 5, 2002, 15:49

Quote:

Originally posted by ALPHA WOLF 64

this would be fine if i had some way of forcing the AIs to reduce pollution. the AIs dont seem to care at all about pollution. I wish you could turn off the pollution aspect of the game since it is so poorly implemented.

One has about as much of a chance forcing an AI that doesn't care about it's pollution as one has forcing the U.S. to handle the pollution it doesn't care about. Since I'm no warmonger and usually have decent realtions with my fellow nations, I often ask for a ROP and put a group of workers, backed by a small security force, into every major nation. That really seems to help me.

Traelin · September 5, 2002, 15:54

Quote:

Originally posted by Wormwood

One has about as much of a chance forcing an AI that doesn't care about it's pollution as one has forcing the U.S. to handle the pollution it doesn't care about.

OK we've already had a global warming thread that's led to country-bashing and trash-talking. Can we avoid the same thing from happening here plz?

Wormwood · September 5, 2002, 15:57

Well, I did offer a solution

Traelin · September 5, 2002, 15:59

HAHA yeah you did.

That's what I usually have to do too. Man it's annoying to send a brigade of slaves -- err foreign workers -- to do a dirty job.

Wormwood · September 5, 2002, 16:05

Usually the only people that have a problem with it are late game aggressors like Russia and Germany. I guess a half dozen workers defended only by a couple of infantry are too much for them to resist. I always keep a transport ready to hurry them out of there when trouble brews. That's why I go with those eight units.

WarpStorm · September 5, 2002, 16:24

It's not the pollution on the ground that's causing Global Warming. Pollution on the ground does not cause warming. You can easily test this by making a heavily polluted map as a scenario. No global warming. If you don't clean up the tiles, they will turn to desert, but that is different.

This was pointed out before by Firaxis (but it must have been on another forum) that pollution on the ground is a symptom not a cause. The risk of global warming is proportional to the little triangles in the cities of the world and the number of nukes dropped.