Oppositions to Arabs

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Ozymandias


-- Usually legal codes and the increasingly ethereal notion of "business ethics".

Oh, ts, tsk, tsk. Is it really necessary to have a divinity peaking over one's shoulder, or live in fear of eternal retribution, to behave decently? Or (please, God! ) might there be some inherent possibility of human decency?

... Or shall I start on a "reductio ad absurdum" viz riutalistic murders in the name of Kali?

Oy,

Oz

Human decency? Sorry, don't buy it I personally act decently(according to my definition) because of my irrational fear that my grandpa will rise from his grave and whoop my a$$. Business ethics? Legal codes? I think it all comes down to whether you had a good mother or not. I think business ethics is the funniest though, if they exist they need a serious reworking helped along by the introduction of caning. I don't know if it would change any Enron executives but it would be seriously fun to watch.

P.S. All in good fun. I do seriously question the idea of 'inherent' human decency though.

[roalan]

Actually the Israelies are included in a scenario built into PTW.I forget which one it is I do remember that it was in several of the very large scenarios like 31 countries hundreds of cities and built for a very fast computer otherwise you have to use the victory condition where you kill the king?

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by Caliban


And again we got a nice little policy chat that has nothing to do with hte game!

Have you been reading this thread Caliban? This is the post you would respond to?

Traelin, I agree with you here, though maybe not for the same reasons. Nazism was seriously bad, I mean really really bad, I mean it was so bad... do I really have to continue here? I think its pretty irresponsible to throw around comparisons like that especially since its just not at all true. Certain aspects of Israeli occupation might resemble certain aspects of Nazi occupation but the limited comparison ends there and in no way does Israel near the barbarity of that regime.

[roalan]

Dirtstyles your a moron and your so called Jewish are idiots also. I was in Israel this summer and I have family living there and If you believe it is anything like Nazi Germany Then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell you and your stupid friends. I will sell it real cheap. Also why don't you and your "Jewish" friend travel to Israel to see for your selfs instead of assuming.
Your just plain

[roalan]

Israel occupation of What? It's own land.
How come Iraq and Turkey are somehow not occuping Kurdish lands? How come no one cares if the Kurds get a country or not is it because the world can't or won't push those guys around? What is easier then to pick on a small country with a minority of people and a land that doesn't offer much in the way of goods to the world. If Israel was as big as Turkey or Syria the world could give a s**t less abouth Palestine. Actually the Arab countries don't give a s**t about Palestine they just use it to prod Israel otherwise Syria and Jordan would not have thrown them out of there lands in the World was very silent about. The whole think is a sick joke that is costing many lives on all sides -Israel shoudl do as ALL other countries do either kick them all out or pen them up. End of war. Does that sound something like what we did to the Mexicans and Indians ???

[gsmoove23]

If the Israeli government followed your suggestion Roalan, perhaps I wouldn't have a problem equating them to nazis. Whose land is it? I'm not discussing Israel proper but the West Bank and Gaza, and penning up or kicking out 3 million or more palestinians offers a few logistic problems.

Mexicans and Indians? Do you realize what we have done to native americans might have been wrong? The time has long past so the idea of giving back land borders on the ridiculous.

Israel's main problem seems to be that they carried out their expansion and attempts at ethnic cleansing in the 20th century after the harsh lessons of WW2. Otherwise, I doubt anyone would give a s**t. For myself, if more then 3 billion dollars of American tax dollars is paid to poor little Israel a year, I should hope that a larger number of americans would care about the uses those expenditures are put to.

[roalan]

You could not be more wrong. Israel never started their wars except 1967 ,Ethnik cleansing like what and where? Gaza not Israel West bank are you kidding. Wasn't Jesues born their are most of the cities mentioned in the Bible as part of Israel. And don't give me the bull that since the Romans carried of the Jews the land suddenly became someone elses. I never said what we did to the Inians was correct but EVERY country in this worlds has done something like that to someone that has lived in their land and noone gives a s**t. Why is it that the world wrings its hanfds at Israel if it wants to take back itis own land in the west bank? I do not see you screaming at England to get out of Ireland. I never heard of the UN emergency meeting over Russian's occupation of the Baltic countries. It just goes on and on so all I am saying is get off Israel's back and at the very least include he with ALL the other countries that do as they please and the UN is out to lunch.

[gsmoove23]

Well if your analysis of the West Bank being Israel because of the Bible is correct then I suppose there would be no end to people justly taking back there land. Native Americans could take back Manhattan or Newton, Ma for that matter and perhaps the original inhabitants of Israel could also take back their land that was stolen from them as recorded in the Old Testament. Oh right, that theft was ordained by God.

In the Bible towns and villages are a part of Israel depending on what time period they are mentioned in. Certainly Jesus was born in a Roman province named Judea. Who cares? Suicide bombing? He'd prob just tell you to turn the other cheek.

Ethnic cleansing, give me a break, do I really have to go into this. In the 1948 war of independance arab villages were erased, pogroms were carried out, 700,000 arabs were either ejected from their homes or very sensibly fled and were not allowed to come back. In 1967 the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza brought about another 300,000 refugees not allowed back to their homes, half of these were being forced from their homes for a second time. You can nitpick over the details but you can't change the fact that this was ethnic cleansing.

As for other injustices around the world you're right, the international community picks its battles. Bushes upcoming war in Iraq meant he had to stop leaning on the Russians for their actions in Chechnya, the list goes on, yeah. I'm upset about all of these things but the fact that they exist does not lessen Israel's guilt. My arguement was, Israel is arguably the US's closest ally, it receives a vast amount of monetary and military support from us, no questions asked, and its actions reflect on the US. As a US citizen, I'm angered by the fact that we continue to support in this fashion, with no consideration for what is done with our military hardware after it is given. I'm angered by Powell running home with his tail between his legs after being sent to chastize Sharon for use of excessive force. Certainly, as an American citizen living abroad I'm angered by the effect this blind support of Israel has on foreign views of the US.

Oh, and I like the England out of Ireland bit, I am following what is happening their very closely and I've never been too pleased with Englands actions in Ireland. I am an Irish-American after all. Do you want to get into a discussion about any other places where people are being opressed? Try another thread I'll join you there, right now we're talking about Israel.

[roalan]

In 1948 Israel asked the Palestine people to STAY and fight for their homes the Arab countries said when they come roaring through any arab that stayed and fought for Israel and their homes would be killed. The Yellow Bellies fled on their own because everyone thought the Arab countries heavily armed and trained by the British would win real easy. Israel had one piper cub plane for its air force at the beginning of the war and no artillery. After the war was over and the Yellow bellie's wanted to return Israel said No-You ran like cowards and you can not come back The other arab countries saw a way to keep the war going by refusing to take the refugees and set up camps .So noone wanted them or cared and this bread what has happened today. I was arounfd when this happened it is real life to me.
The US indians never had an official country just like Palestine was never a country only a Roman name given their provience.Israel has given the US many captured Russian equipment. If you remember the entire radar statiion they captured years ago -I was in Israel when they shipped it over here by TWA. Captured Russians missles -tanks etc. have been sent to the US for analysis.Israle helps when ever they can. Their spy network is top of the line and they tip off the Us to any of their finds. In the 1991 war Israel did not defend it's seldf because the US asked them not to. If you were around at the time Israel bombed Iraq's Nuke plant and set their program behind quite a bit. Everyone was very happy when that happened.

[gsmoove23]

ooo, missed that one. "Israel never started their wars except 1967." What about the Suez-Sinai war of 56. Invasion of Lebanon? How about the war of independance? Did you know that before any foreign arab armies stepped foot in Palestine the Haganah and other Israeli forces were already in the UN designated palestinian areas? This was before the declaration of the Israeli state which brought Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian forces into Palestine. Most of its arguable but my point is to argue the misconception that the Israeli government has in anyway been peace-loving. (Please note the emphasis on government and not people)

[roalan]

1956 was started by England and France Israel did jump on the band waggon but did not start the war Egypt closed the Canal nd the allies went to war, Ike stopped the war to soon or the ALLIES would have taken out egypt. Lebanon was because of the constint attack accross the boarder and the Leboneese Christians were Israel Allies. Believe me if there was any other gov. In that land besiodes Israel the Plaestine people would not exist. Israel has the power to end and for some strange reason they don't. Anyone else would. You are against what other countries are doing as mentioned but only sound off agaist Israel. Why not against everyone .keep it even at least.

[gsmoove23]

The idea of Israel asking the palestinians to fight for the establishment of a Jewish state is laughable. Amazing how they turned yellow bellied and decided not to defend the star of David. Probably some of them just wanted to live in their homes as they always did. Of course actions like the massacre at Deir Yassin might have helped change their minds when over 200 men, women and children were killed by Isra... yada yada yada. Imagine turning yellow bellied and not defending their country Give me a break. You're spouting 1960's era Israeli propaganda. No you can't come back, does that work for the yella bellied women and children?

As for the Arab nations taking them in, they didn't have much of a choice did they. They had lost the war and suddenly were flooded by 700,000 rightfully upset palestinians. I'm sure alot of the arab leaders didn't appreciate these people and for good reason. Jordan was very near the brink of civil war at one point because of all the refugees they took in and Lebanon, well Beirut used to be the Paris of the Middle East. Taking in large amounts of refugees isn't a cakewalk, something simulated to some extant in civ3.

They damn well better help when they can for 3 billion dollars a year. I can even understand the support during the cold war but its over.

Palestina refers to the phillistines living in the region who did have a country before the Jews came as recorded in the Bible. As for the Indians of course they had countries, many of them, chiefdoms, empires, kingdoms. Tribal confederacies, should I go on?

[gsmoove23]

October 29: Israel attacks Egypt, with French reinforcements, and in less than 4 days, they reach the Suez Canal. The Israeli invasion is a reaction to a declaration that the armies of Jordan and Syria were set under joint commando of the Egyptian army commander in chief. It appears likely that Israel hoped that the Soviet invasion of Hungary in Europe would reduce the media attention on their own aggressions.
October 30: Britain and France presents both Israel and Egypt with an ultimatum of seizing military actions, and withdrawal of 16 km from the canal zone. When Egypt does not accept to withdraw from their own sovereign territory, Britain and France claim to have an excuse to attack Egypt.
October 31: British and French troops, stationed on Cyprus, start bombing Egyptian air strips in an attempt to eliminate the Egyptian air force. But Egypt has moved their air planes away from all air strips. The British and French intervention is sharply condemned by USA and the Soviet Union in the general assembly of the UN.

Yes, Egypt did nationalize the canal, not a reason for war. The allies did take out Egypt but the question is what would you put in its place? Perhaps a colony? Imagine all the troubles we could have now. The Lebanese war began as a result of a steady escalation of attacks on both sides of the border but I already said this was arguable.

As for your continuing insistance on talking about other parts of the world, I already said we are talking about Israel, I also mentioned why I find the subject important as a US citizen yet you did not respond. As I said if you want to start another discussion in another thread I would prob follow you.

[sabrewolf]

roalan,

a lot of your "arguments" irritate me, but this one is the worst of all:

Originally posted by roalan
The US indians never had an official country just like Palestine was never a country only a Roman name given their provience.

so if i understand you correctly, you're implying that only because the indian tribes weren't united under a constitution and didn't declare a country, they have no right of posessing the land?

that sound just a little bit like that fashistoid australian (i can't remember his name) who sais aborigines have no rights at all, because they are primitive. he also said, that if god wanted them to have the land and rights, they would know how.

every one is allowed to have an own opinion, but PLEASE try a keep just a minimum of sence in yours... thanks

[roalan]

Israel asked then to fight for their homes. Palestine people would rather live and work in Israel the leave and live in other countries. They make much more $ in Israel and have more freedom at least prior to the bombings anyway. If you think it was laughable that Israel asked them to stay and fight. WHY DON'T YOU ASK THOSE THAT LIVED THERE AT THE TIME I DID. For someone who may not have been born in those days you sure fell you know alot. To bad you don't hacve a clue. But then again pretty soon the Japaneese Kids will believe it was the US that started the war and it was the Chineese that were cruel to THEM. That what history does it distorts the facts and you are sucker enough to believe them. Soon old guys like me will not be arround to tell the truth of what happened and your version will be the new fact. Oh and bye the bye it is a common myth the Palestine people were the phillistines.
It is no use arguing with a person that gets all his knowledge from other sources then the people who were there or from past history. Propaganda is a wonderful tool when narrow minded people pick and choose what hey want to believe. GBAGL your opinoin will not effect what ever outcome arrives from the mess in the Mid East.Perhaps in the future when people are convienced that history rewritren by leftest profs. Israel and the Western countries will lose from it but until then live will go.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by roalan
Israel occupation of What? It's own land.
How come Iraq and Turkey are somehow not occuping Kurdish lands? How come no one cares if the Kurds get a country or not is it because the world can't or won't push those guys around? What is easier then to pick on a small country with a minority of people and a land that doesn't offer much in the way of goods to the world. If Israel was as big as Turkey or Syria the world could give a s**t less abouth Palestine. Actually the Arab countries don't give a s**t about Palestine they just use it to prod Israel otherwise Syria and Jordan would not have thrown them out of there lands in the World was very silent about. The whole think is a sick joke that is costing many lives on all sides -Israel shoudl do as ALL other countries do either kick them all out or pen them up. End of war. Does that sound something like what we did to the Mexicans and Indians ???

Sorry, one more post. I wasn't attacking Israel until this post. Before that I was criticizing someone who had equated Israel to Nazi Germany. You took offence to my reference to an Israeli occupation which is a widely accepted definition of the Israeli presence in the West Bank and Gaza and since then I have only been responding to you so please don't get on my back for attacking Israel, I have been quiet on this subject for a number of pages in this thread and will be quiet again once you post something that I don't find irresistable to respond to.

[roalan]

OK lets us agree that Gaza is not part of Israel and Israel should leave the area and that no bombing should come from Gaza against Israel.

[sabrewolf]

it is a fact, that people who actually live IN the combat region know less about the truth than people outside.

just a few examples i personally know about (there's most likely better ones, but just to show you my examples)

1) germany in WW2: the grandfather of my ex-girlfriend fough against the czechs. they were told that the czech were barbarians, killing german farmers, raping their wives and daughters, etc. now imagine that's the only news you hear during 2 years? of course he hated the czechs. only after many years the truth came through and gradually the germans realised they had fallen for the propaganda

2) serbs in the 90's. i know quite a few families who came from serbia during the war time (i also know a lot of bosnians and croatians). most of the serbs loved milosevic, because they believed he's going to save their nations against the evil UN who want to steal thei identity and give their land to the albanians from kosovo. but everyone who came to western europe saw the free press - and even though it hurt, ALL of them now admit, that milosevic was bad. again, they had fallen for the propaganda.

ok, i'll stop now, i don't feel like writing more examples. i guess you understand my point by now:
only because you were there, it doesn't mean that you know the full truth. you'll only know one side of the truth. and as gsmoove23 said: you're argumenting with 1960's propaganda.

[gsmoove23]

You are very funny, you've fallen back on this logic before in other threads. History rewritten by leftist profs or perhaps history rewritten by profs who have access to previously classified material, either way I find the old as susceptible to propaganda as the young(not to call you old since I really have no idea what age you are). I have read a few histories on the subject and while I haven't spoken with those who lived it I have read tesimonies from both sides. Often, the lies begin very early on both sides, even from the lips of those who have just experienced it. Take the irresponsible reporting on Jenin, taken from survivors.

As for people living in Israel proper, isn't it funny that palestinians can't buy land, neither can christians for the most part. They also have lower per capita government spending on their commun... yada yada yada. I'm not slipping into this again. Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza never lived in a democracy, their quality of life was equitable if not lower then that in arab countries, if arrested they are subject to military courts, it goes on.

[roalan]

I thought we settled this. Ask the Chineese about rewritten history.Even the UN and the leftests admitted there was no slaughter in Jenin it was a Palestine Lie and noone was slaughted no bodys. and that was only a few months ago. Propaganda does come fast now a days. Ask a Palestine who works in Israel where he would rather be earning arab$ or Israelie $. I do not need to say anything just ask them.

[gsmoove23]

Oh thank you Sabrewolf, I was worried it was only Roalan and me and I guess I'm a couple of posts behind. Roalan, its very kind of you to give me Gaza but where did the West Bank go? and how about bombs and missiles fired from Israel into Gaza, is that allowed?

Just to clarify, I wouldn't say that palestinians today are direct descendants of the phillistines, just that the Roman name Palestina probably referred to the phillistines and I'm sure although there has been a great amount of mixture and dilution there is probably some phillistine blood in the palestinians of today, as well as canannite, phoenician and probably hebrew too.

[gsmoove23]

Originally posted by roalan
I thought we settled this. Ask the Chineese about rewritten history.Even the UN and the leftests admitted there was no slaughter in Jenin it was a Palestine Lie and noone was slaughted no bodys. and that was only a few months ago. Propaganda does come fast now a days. Ask a Palestine who works in Israel where he would rather be earning arab$ or Israelie $. I do not need to say anything just ask them.

Aaaargh, I don't know which is worse, your posts or my need to respond to them. The supposed slaughter in Jenin was what I was referring to! You see sometimes I argue both sides to get my point across. You have brought up the Chinese and Japanese issue a number of times but which side are YOU arguing. Lets bring up your arguement as an example. The Israelis asked the arab palestinians to stay and defend the Israeli nation against the arab armies. Thats right right? The arab palestinians were yellow bellied, they left, they might have stayed and defended the Jewish national home except everyone knew the arabs would win. Right? When they wanted to come back the Israelis wouldn't let them cause they didn't defend their land. Right? Now instead of just repeating this try to think it through. Does it follow any logical order? Or maybe just maybe the Israelis did some rewriting of history themselves.

[roalan]

First of all I am getting near 70 yrs. I have been around the block a few times and also did a lot of traveling with the Navy Seebees So I was in the Mid East, I have family living in Israel. My brother in fact asked as did many Israelies that the Palestine's living in Israel DEFEND YOUR HOMES-NOT ISRAEL though both come together if you defend your home. I did not get this info from a girl friend of a grandfather I got it from my own family. I am defending the Chineese and the US when the Japs try and change the facts in their text books. The Palestine people were asked to defend their home. Just like if someone attacked your home town and you were asked to fight for your house and place of work. Now if you said "I'M out of here" and then later after other people inc. Palestines stayed and died for their homes you tried to sneak back in with the whine " Can I come home now". I do not think you would be allowed back and if so I know that here in the USA you would be given a hard time just like the musilms are getting now here.( I am not saying this is OK because 99% are innocent) But if you sneak back after your countrymen died defending YOUR home I do not believe it would be allowed. Have they allowed the College students back from Canada that ran away in the Vietnam war? Maybe by know they have.( Don't get on me about Vietnam I thought it was an unjust war made for big business)
You also mention that the arabs have it tough in Israel but did you know there are Arabs in Parliment ,Israelie Gov. How many Jews or Israelis are in ANY arab gov? NONE ZIP and there never will be.

[gsmoove23]

Roalan, by 1948 there had already been a long and bloody struggle between the arab and jewish inhabitants of Palestine. An arab revolt, jewish terrorism, arab terrorism, it is obvious that arabs wouldn't feel they needed to defend their homes against arab regular armies. Here I suggest part of the practical reasons for forcing arabs from their homes that should be obvious to anyone, especially those who lived it, though perhaps some might not want to repeat it.

By 1948 it was obvious to Israeli leadership that you could not have a democratic Israel and a Jewish Israel because of the troubling fact that their simply weren't as many Jews in the region as arabs. The idea of population transfer had been addressed in earlier attempts at agreements and was seen as the only way to have a jewish Israel by most of the Israeli leadership. The massacre at Deir Yassin was highly publicized at the time to strike fear into arab hearts with the hope of coercing them to flee. This was by no means the policy of the entirety of Israeli leadership but more radical elements. In the same vein, jewish residents in endangered communities were asked by their leadership to stay in their homes no matter what because the policy of refusing the return of refugees was already envisaged. No doubt many jews did flee as is natural in a war, especially women worried for their children but they were certainly not refused entry when they returned because simply stated any jew can always return to Israel, regardless of whether they are yellow bellied or not.

[gsmoove23]

Its a good thing that this is the internet and I can't verify your age. Be assured if I knew without a doubt I was speaking to a 70 year old I'd be showing them a good deal more respect then I might be showing you and probably not even getting into this conversation, yet this is the internet and issues like these are neutralized I guess. While I respect that you've been around the block I can't respect your opinions.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by gsmoove23


Have you been reading this thread Caliban? This is the post you would respond to?

Traelin, I agree with you here, though maybe not for the same reasons. Nazism was seriously bad, I mean really really bad, I mean it was so bad... do I really have to continue here? I think its pretty irresponsible to throw around comparisons like that especially since its just not at all true. Certain aspects of Israeli occupation might resemble certain aspects of Nazi occupation but the limited comparison ends there and in no way does Israel near the barbarity of that regime.

Well it appears we actually agree for once!

[Ozymandias]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
[They] were certainly not refused entry when they returned because simply stated any jew can always return to Israel, regardless of whether they are yellow bellied or not.

Not nitpicking but historical trivia -- the infamous American gangster Meyer Lansky was, I believe, the only Jew ever denied the "Right Of Return".

-Oz

[Traelin]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
My arguement was, Israel is arguably the US's closest ally,

I'm gonna stay away from the whole Israeli/Palestinian debate, because I've been down that path before and I think you all know how I feel.

But I can't see a really good argument claiming that Israel is our closest ally. I think Great Britain is hands down our closest ally. We're connected at the hip and have been since WW2. Canada and Australia would be tied for second IMHO. Israel would possibly be next, but I'm even sure I'd put them above Japan.

EDIT: But to make myself clear, I certainly am not trying to downplay how close Israel and the U.S. are. I personally value Israel over most of our allies. I personally value them over Japan, but that's another discussion.

However, I personally value Britain's friendship over everyone else's by far, and for so many reasons. The Who, anyone? Just kidding of course, although I do love their music.

[roalan]

Yes civil. pop. does flee in time of war. Don't forget Israel has only about 2-3mil. people and if they allow anyone in they will soon be absorbed into the arab population. We in the US let in many other countries people, we are a large land with a hugh pop. Other countries such as England let in others but are not kindly disposed to them . Neither are many other countries. Israel is no different when trying to keep the majority as Jews, however Israel does let in all Jews from all countries in the world so they have a very god mix of people form all parts of the world. One problem is that Jews which is a religion and Israel a Nation are mixed. This does not seem to be the case in the rest of the world. It is a big conflict but I guess it extends back to bible days.
I notice in todays news the US blasted a car load of terrorists and there is not a peep of protest or call for revenge from the rest of the world. If Israel did it the UN would meet to condem them.Screems of revenge would be heard through out the land. I also see no condomnation of yeaterdays bombing of a mall in Israel or Israel threat of revenge (even though they will do it) And when it comes you will hear world leaders condem Israel and hear more screems of revenge. If Israel was as big a Turkey and had 40 Million people and some oil. The world would never say anything against Israel .

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Ozymandias


Not nitpicking but historical trivia -- the infamous American gangster Meyer Lansky was, I believe, the only Jew ever denied the "Right Of Return".

-Oz

Hrm, I'm ignorant on Lansky. Who was he?