Forum Merger - Vote Now!

[Kull]

Here's a rather curious series of events - all of which add up to "the fix was in" (IMHO):

1) The Proposal to Merge the Scenario League and Civ2 Creation Forums appeared under a thread titled "PBEM: New Proposal". What!? Here at Apolyton (where even toilet paper softness has it's own thread) we can't have TWO different threads to discuss TWO completely separate topics? Could it be that most people don't object to the PBEM issue while the Merger is far more controversial? Was there a desire to muddy the waters? Not attract attention? Hey maybe it was an honest mistake....I'm being paranoid, right? Read on.

2) I can understand when a newbie doesn't know all the features of this forum, but Markos is a bit more adept than that. So it's odd that the polling feature wasn't used. Normally one doesn't use a word like "proposal" unless you want feedback - and what more scientific method than the posting of a simple poll. Of course there's always the possibility that one's desired outcome won't be the leading votegetter. Plus there's the awkward fact that losing the vote is so....obvious. It's all there in one quick, easily digested view.

3) Speaking of "losing the vote", my unscientific count of postings in the Merger thread goes as follows:

In favor of Merging: 3 (including Markos)
Opposed: 11

Of the 2 impartial "Yes" votes, only Mercator could be classified as a strong proponent. For the "No" folks, most were adamantly opposed.

4) Following this debate, Markos showed how well he'd been listening by posting this:

as i see no further objections, the following change will happen tomorrow - the SL forum is merged with the Civ2-Creation one, moved under the civ2 category and renamed to Scenario League / Civ2-Creation

For those who need interpretation, Markos asked people what they thought of the merger, most said "No way", and he did it anyway. This just amazes me.

5) And then.....the ultimate insult comes with the announcement of the merge:

To better serve the civ2 scenario community and help Scenario League move forward with bigger steps, the Scenario League and Civ2-Creation forums have been merged to one forum under the Civ2 category

Here we have a pronouncement that totally flies in the face of majority expressed opinion. I like you MarkG, I really do - but that was the kind of claptrap that would make a politician proud.

6) So - like it or not - now we're part of the Civ2 Forum Family. Just for the record, please vote and tell everyone how you really feel.

[MarkG]

1) try to keep the paranoic ideas out of your posts. try reading the earlier threads...

2) when you're making a proposal and ask for discussion puting a poll on which one can not change his vote is not very profuctive

3) i'd love to see your full count. for the record i have the agreement of one of the heads of SL.

4) i just said i'm going to execute the decision as there was no further objection. i didnt ask for new opinions, proven by the fact that it took 10 days and someone who didnt participate in the whole process to come up and disagree.....

5) you're insulted that SL is about civ2? how is SL going to move forward if it foesnt have new blood and more traffic?
and i'm not a politician, i'm just a site owner waisting his saturday morning trying to help the community....

[Kull]

*Sigh* I was going to do the usual "point-by-point rebuttal", but let's take the high road (which would have been a good choice for my opening post), and cut to the chase:

how is SL going to move forward if it doesnt have new blood and more traffic?

That's the whole point. I - and many others - can see the writing on the wall for Civ2. In two or three years the impetus will run out. Unlike CtP (never well supported by the community or even it's owners), Civ3 WILL provide the gaming alternative that finally kills off Civ2. My limited playing time over the past year has been spent almost exclusively with Civ3, and I salivate at the scenario possibilities. But what becomes of the Scenario League then? Sticking it in the Civ2 Forums practically guarantees a long, slow, lingering death. Which is a painful prospect for the many designers who were inspired - yes, lifted up - by their experiences in this forum during the "Golden Years" of the Scenario League.

Now Mark, you're a good guy - you've demonstrated that time and again over the years. Hell, I hung out on the Greek Civ II Site forum so I know how long and winding this road has been for you! But this time you're wrong. Wrong in moving a 99% Civ2-based forum to a Civ2 location? That's a no-brainer on the surface, and I can see why you'd do it. But those who oppose you aren't doing so because we're old "stick-in-the-muds", desperate to avoid any semblance of change.

What we're talking about is a vision. The Scenario League "got it right" when it came to Civ2. It was and is a home for tweakers, artists, the inveterate tinkerers who seek to twist the engine to their will. In fact it's the same sort of folks who right now are learning this from scratch over in the Civ3 Creation forum. But waiting for them to arrive in this forum is like waiting for Godot - it's never gonna happen! But who says that we (and that includes you too, Markos) can't grant them a chapter in this enterprise? Call it the Civ3 Creation/Scenario League and give them a Hosted Web-site. If you offer it, they will come! And then we can have discussions about what works and what doesn't - how to rate scenarios and tools and modpacks - where to store files and what constitutes a good "How-to" Manual. We don't have to share the same forum to share the same dream - but there should be a way to effectively "pass the torch".

Now maybe some of my ideas won't work - but consider them the opening salvos in a necessary discussion. But it can't be just words. Because if the Scenario League is to grow and move on from Civ2 to Civ3 and even EU and other games to come, then ultimately it has to result in actions.

[MarkG]

I - and many others - can see the writing on the wall for Civ2. In two or three years the impetus will run out. Unlike CtP (never well supported by the community or even it's owners), Civ3 WILL provide the gaming alternative that finally kills off Civ2. My limited playing time over the past year has been spent almost exclusively with Civ3, and I salivate at the scenario possibilities. But what becomes of the Scenario League then?

first of all, the death of civ2 is expected the last 3 years
it still hasnt come

second, ctp is not well supported by the community???? i wont even begin answering this

third, for the gazillionth time, i'm quoting myself

if and when the focus is shifted more towards other games, we'll act accordingly

i'm tired of hearing about big plans and "visions"
lets do what works NOW and in 2-3 years lets do what will WORK in 2-3 years

fourth, do YOU want to do civ3 stuff and post about it here? fine, i'll have NO objection

fifth, in the case of the SL forum staying separate, would anyone go there to post about civ3? no. why? cause the last thread in the SL about civ3 was in May

so unless, YOU, the regulars of SL dont do anything to change the focus and content of SL from being less than the current 95% about civ2, why should we wait for some great vision to come true instead of doing what's best for the site today?

[Gothmog]

Markos,
the SL forum can always be moved again, if the focus ever changes, right? I don't see this as anything to get that exited about.

[Goingonit]

Lets face it, SLeague right now is (and must be) about Civ 2 and virtually civ 2 alone. However much I like the EU2 section on the web site, I'm not seeing anybody rushing to work on their own EU2 mod. After Civ 3 becomes a viable alternative, maybe SLeague can move back out again, but right now just call it what it is - Civ2 creation.

[The ANZAC]

I get the same feeling as Kull that SLeague will be pigeon holed, but I can't see the end of Civ2, though it is quite possible...

[DarkCloud]

first of all, the death of civ2 is expected the last 3 years
it still hasnt come

I still play Civ II monthly
And Civ I about every other month

Although I have trouble creating scenarios as Fantastic Worlds has errors

[klesh]

Well I tried to vote, but my 'session appears to be invalid'. Get this same error trying to vote on most polls.

Anyway, I cast my vote for 'no'.

-FMK.

[Chris 62]

Mark, Kull is trying to tell you the same thing I was.

Eventually civ-3 designs would come to the SL, IF it had it's own area, now it's locked into the older game, it lost it's flexibility for no good reason.

Scenario and MP tools are only now opening up Civ-3, so just when a new start was beconing, you shoved the SL into a dead forum under a system that is now growing older.

It was best left where it was, this was just a poor decision, and saying the one of the guys that runs it supports you is rather lame, since you appointed them.

R.I.P. Scenario League, killed by an overactive site owner for no good purpose.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Gothmog
the SL forum can always be moved again, if the focus ever changes, right? I don't see this as anything to get that exited about.

correct

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Eventually civ-3 designs would come to the SL, IF it had it's own area, now it's locked into the older game

there was significant work on ctp1, ctp2 and smac but not in the SL forum. why? cause noone from the core group of SL people care about these games.

the same will hapen with civ3 unless the people of SL actually work on civ3 and regardless of the position of the forum

[Chris 62]

The CTP series sucked, and SMAC isn't civ.

[MarkG]

exactly my point

[MagyarCrusader]

Well, instead of the SLeague forums moving, why couldn't they stay under the hosted sites forum section, and just move the Civ2 Creation forums over?

[MarkG]

cause it would be out of place to look around for a civ2 creation forum outside the the civ2 category....

as it is now i think the SL name stands out pretty well around the civ2 forums....

[MagyarCrusader]

Well, what does St Leo say about the merger?

[St Leo]

I say it's a fait accompli. Markos isn't likely to rename Civ2 General to Civ2 General/Creation tomorrow. However, this happenning a year from now is a different matter, so save your *****ing until then.

In the meantime - I cannot stress this enough - start posting threads about other games. A few community threads will also be tolerated.

[MarkG]

what is a "fait accompli"?

[St Leo]

fait ac·com·pli - An accomplished, presumably irreversible deed or fact. [French : fait, fact + accompli, accomplished.]

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=fait%20accompli

[MarkG]

hmm i actually looked for "fait" and "accompli" separately but couldnt find "fait accompli" in either search

[St Leo]

/me plonks the root doofus

[Chris 62]

Mark, fait accompli means anapofefktos.