Any Christians out there?

[SlowwHand]

I agree with you almost 100%, Boris.
Except the part about God's depiction.
Some branches of Christianity do indeed brand Him as a vengeful being, while others, such as mine, teach that He is forgiving.

BTW, Loinburger, you say it depends on whether you believe 1 of 2 line's of thought, but you don't elaborate on what you personally think.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by loinburger


I could have sworn that it was a Christian that started this thread, not an atheist...

Run a search for old religious troll threads, you'll find that almost all of them were started by Christians. My favorite was "The Evangelical Atheist," in which the thread starter basically started a religious troll thread in which he complained that atheists start too many religious troll threads or something. Good times.

I did not think this was meant as a troll thread -- he was merely asking who was Christian and who was atheist?

It IS possible to answer the question, and have a discussion between Christians and atheists without one side trolling the other.

But then when Asher made his troll about how everyone picks what they believe in, it seemed he was making a jibe at the diversity of religions in this world.

There never was a religious discussion thread where there was not at least one troll thread from an atheist.
And Christian Apolytoners who troll atheists, need to stop that too.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
I agree with you almost 100%, Boris.
Except the part about God's depiction.
Some branches of Christianity do indeed brand Him as a vengeful being, while others, such as mine, teach that He is forgiving.

BTW, Loinburger, you say it depends on whether you believe 1 of 2 line's of thought, but you don't elaborate on what you personally think.

There seems to be a difference, from what I see, between what the Bible depicts and what Christian sects choose to see and how choose to interpret God's actions and intentions.

While it is undoubtedly a personal opinion, the literal depiction of God in the Bible shows a vain, evil being bent on slaughtering his creations, toying with their minds and emotions and acting in ways that most people would find petty and unjust. I don't see how you can interpret Job as being the act of an all-knowing and loving God. Nor the Flood, perhaps the greatest atrocity ever attributed to a deity, and for something that was his own fault, no less. And then there is that whole condemning folks to Hell not based on their merits as good people but by whether or not they scrape and kneel to the right image of God in the right way.

I hear the arguments that I look at these things from a modern perspective, so don't understand the image of God, so I naturally don't see the loving, benevolent side. I just turn that back on the people who say that by pointing out they are looking at God with the same misunderstanding, and that back in the old days there was not the notion God was loving and benevolent. Gods were made to be feared, not to love and be loved.

I am agnostic, and don't believe any depiction of God humans have come up with is accurate. We're taking stabs in the dark at something we really don't have the power to comprehend, if God exists at all. Therefore I totally believe in free will. I also don't believe the description of Jesus's life and crucifixion in the Bible is remotely accurate, and have serious doubts whether he or Judas even existed.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by CyberShy


you're still sticking to the atheist point of view btw?

No.

Agnostic.

[loinburger]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
BTW, Loinburger, you say it depends on whether you believe 1 of 2 line's of thought, but you don't elaborate on what you personally think.

I believe in free will, and so if Judas betrayed Jesus for the reasons that the Bible attributes to him (i.e. betrayal of a friend for cash money) then he got what he had coming to him.

[ckweb]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


You can't look at Judas, IMO, and believe he had free will. His betrayal of Jesus was part of the deal in order to fulfill Jesus's destiny, etc. It sucks to be damned for something you have no control over. That's why I find Calvinists particularly loopy.

Judas was a poor schmuck who was probably doing what he felt was right and got screwed for it (assuming the Biblical account is true, which I do not assume anyway).

Another example of why I find the God depicted in the Bible to be pretty rotten. It's actually a fairly insulting description of a supposedly omnipotent, benevolent being.

And notice how Kcck vanished after the firs post... DL indeed.

You can't just take one Calvinistic doctrine and detach it from the others. Predestination is not as "loopy" as it sounds in the context of Calvin's doctrines on humanity and God. And, Calvin would certainly not say you are "damned for something you have no control over."

[ckweb]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
While it is undoubtedly a personal opinion, the literal depiction of God in the Bible shows a vain, evil being bent on slaughtering his creations, toying with their minds and emotions and acting in ways that most people would find petty and unjust. I don't see how you can interpret Job as being the act of an all-knowing and loving God. Nor the Flood, perhaps the greatest atrocity ever attributed to a deity, and for something that was his own fault, no less. And then there is that whole condemning folks to Hell not based on their merits as good people but by whether or not they scrape and kneel to the right image of God in the right way.

Your personal opinion, as it were, is based on picking and choosing stories and narratives. I agree the Bible at times presents a picture of a capricious and vengeful god. It also presents the picture of a god who sides with the oppressed, the downtrodden, the widow, and the orphan; a god who does great miracles and wonders to deliver his people, revive the weak, sick, and dead, and comfort the hopeless. If one overwhelms or outweighs the other in your mind, so be it. But shouldn't you be fair and acknowledge that the picture of God in the Hebrew Bible and New Testament is more than you let on in this post?

[ckweb]

Originally posted by Fez


No I am not a fanatic... but I decided that newsmax religious debates were enough for me and convinced me devout Christians are truely not people to talk to. I post at newsmax and the people there are so stupidly blind...

Hope you enjoy navel-gazing . . .

[Guynemer]

Does this count as a club thread?

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ming
Let's not make this personal foks...

Agreed, the only "Personal" one should make is to have a "Personal" relationship with He Whom Died for our Sins, that being the person of Jesus Christ, God in Flesh Form.

Thanks Ming for reminding us what we should all know, be nice and be a witness, not attack. I pesonally have accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. Thats a persoanl choice we all have to make in order to recieve eternal life in Heaven.

Of course..there is always the "Smoking" section of eternity....

[Guynemer]

Boy, Troll, you sure hit the nail on the head in explaining what Ming meant when he said, "Let's not make this personal, folks..."

Ming, if I may be so presumptuous as to quote you:

[Ethelred]

Good ol' Troll. If you aren't for his god you will burn forever. But its not personal. After all its doesn't have a thing to do with a person's behaviour just belief. So Hitler goes to Heaven and a 3 year old child in New Guinee goes to Hell because it never even heard of a Christian.

[leftover_crack]

<-----catholic (i dont go to church as much as I should)

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Ethelred
Good ol' Troll. If you aren't for his god you will burn forever. But its not personal. After all its doesn't have a thing to do with a person's behaviour just belief. So Hitler goes to Heaven and a 3 year old child in New Guinee goes to Hell because it never even heard of a Christian.

See Ethelred, I am not attacking you, I am simply stating what the Bible says, and as for Hitler, I dont know where he is, not me to judge, and as for the 3 year old, if you are before the age of understanding than you go to heaven. I am soory you seem to misunderstand me, but I never spoke of god, I spoke of G O D

[leftover_crack]

troll has got to be a REAL troll here to make a mockery of christians. If your real I will say; Dont be so darn persistant bro. Some people just dont want or need it.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by leftover_crack
troll has got to be a REAL troll here to make a mockery of christians. If your real I will say; Dont be so darn persistant bro. Some people just dont want or need it.

I took the nicname of Troll as a joke, ok?

AS for my Christian beliefs, they are Real

I am persistent because of whom died for our sins, JESUS CHRIST!

I am not "trolling" but merely stating what the Bible says. Please Read it, and you too will find Faith,Hope and Love!

This is all I am saying.

~Peace~

[leftover_crack]

All your doing is fueling the stereotype some misguided people here have about christians. Just stop man...


Yes I believe Jesus is my Savouir..etc..but its irrelevant on a forum loaded with athiests

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Troll


See Ethelred, I am not attacking you, I am simply stating what the Bible says,

Its still an attack. What else can a person a think of your post. Except that it was silly that is.

and as for Hitler, I dont know where he is,

He isn't. However his body is in bits and pieces in Russia. However he WAS a christian. Specificaly a Catholic. Wether anyone wants to accept it or not. Obviously he wasn't a very good one but being good at it isn't part of many Protestent's ideas since many claim that works don't matter only accepting Jesus as your saviour does.

not me to judge, and as for the 3 year old, if you are before the age of understanding than you go to heaven. I am soory you seem to misunderstand me, but I never spoke of god, I spoke of G O D

You can make it god or God I don't care since your god's existence is open to question. I see no reason to capitlize christian superstitious beliefs since I am not supposed capitlize Greek gods except when I use there name. So its god or Jehovah, chief Greek god or Zues. I treat the Hebrew and Chrisitian religions the same as another religion.

It need not have been been a three year old in my example, I was simply trying to make it clear that the person in question has not commited anything the qualifies as a mortal sin to christians(there are still cannibles in New Guinea so I wanted to avoid that dodge, you chose a different dodge). ANYONE in large areas of New Guinea, parts of Africa and much of the Amazon River basin can be completely ignorant about YOUR religion. By your OWN statements they will go to Hell if they past the age of understanding, whatever age that is.

I am also pretty sure that you claim that reaching the age understanding is needed to go to Hell is something you believe despite what the Bible says. Its clear in a couple of places in the Bible that Heaven can only be entered through Jesus. Those that can't understand can't do that. Those that have never heard of Jesus much less his teachings can't do that either.

[Kcck]

1) If you never heard the gospel of Jesus, then you can't accept him, can you? If you never hear it, you are judged by how well you follow your conscience instead of your faith. God has given all people a conscience, despite their sinful nature. Obvious sinful things, such as murder, will have a, shall we say, "warning" put out by your conscience, telling you it is wrong. Those w/o knowledge of jJesus are judged based on wether or not they do this.

2) I know God exists from my own experiences. Some of them I can't share, but some of them I will. It just seems odd that I have such good favor with others most of the time. For example, last year, my math grade was a B+, but since my teacher say how hard i worked all year, she bumped it up to an A-. Just a bunch of little things, and a few big things, that prove it to me.

3) Also the creation/evolution debate. Creation, in my opinion, seems to require less faith than evolution requires.

4) Too many coincidences. Let's take the Gospels of the New Testament for example. They were written by people, correct? That witness Jesus. Why would they say that the desertted Jesus? Wouldn't that give a bad image? Just seems weird someone would lie to make thmeselves look worse...

5) Apostles died for their faith. Many of the witnesses of Jesus' reserrection were later persecuted, and then killed. Why would they die for something they knew was a lie?

6) And much, much, more...

[SlowwHand]

Originally posted by loinburger


I believe in free will, and so if Judas betrayed Jesus for the reasons that the Bible attributes to him (i.e. betrayal of a friend for cash money) then he got what he had coming to him.

So you discount in it's entirely that people may be here for a specific purpose?

What's curious is how the big, bad Atheists feel threatened by people of faith.
If they're a "straight" Atheist, they don't particularly feel called upon to bash Gays or Bisexuals, and vice-versa.
The only thing that rings their chimes is this one subject,
like that's all they have going for them, disbelief.
Pretty sad existence.
Not that I waste any tears on them.
I personally couldn't care less.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by leftover_crack
All your doing is fueling the stereotype some misguided people here have about christians. Just stop man...

No one has to be misguided to be aware that MANY christians feel exactly as Troll does. Not all, maybe not even most but still a lot.

I am not trying to get Troll to stop saying what he believes. I am trying to point out to him that what he believes often contradicts other things he believes.

Yes I believe Jesus is my Savouir..etc..but its irrelevant on a forum loaded with athiests

Its relevant whether there are Athiest or Agnostics here or not. After all that is what the thread title is asking. However it was not asking for a load of Witnessing. Personally I think it was actualy trolling and not asking but that is still not the alleged purpose of the thread.

However to follow Troll's lead.

[SlowwHand]

Cute.

[connorkimbro]

Apostles died for their faith. Many of the witnesses of Jesus' reserrection were later persecuted, and then killed. Why would they die for something they knew was a lie?

David Koresh died for his beliefs too, why don't you worship him, or at least subscribe to his beliefs? Lots of people die for thier faith. That in no way makes it correct.

For example, last year, my math grade was a B+, but since my teacher say how hard i worked all year, she bumped it up to an A-.

It seems you've screwed up the cause and effect relationship here. I'm guessing your grade in Logic class didn't get the same bump?

Also the creation/evolution debate. Creation, in my opinion, seems to require less faith than evolution requires.

I'm not quite sure how "a) having scientifically measurable observations leading to a conclusion" takes more faith than "b) believing a book written thousands of years ago, when the writers lived thousands of years AFTER the events they write about took place."

Too many coincidences. Let's take the Gospels of the New Testament for example. They were written by people, correct? That witness Jesus. Why would they say that the desertted Jesus? Wouldn't that give a bad image? Just seems weird someone would lie to make thmeselves look worse...

I'm not sure where the argument is here. What exactly are you trying to say?

[SlowwHand]

See? Even connor is more concerned with why Believers believe, than paying attention to what he's supposed to and staying out of trouble.

[Chowlett]

Yes, Christian. And we are commanded to witness, Ethelred. If we submerge our faith and refuse to admit it, we are ignoring one of the most fundamental parts of Christianity. Hence the line in my sig (which is on temporary leave for 24 hours. You'll get it tomorrow).

However, since we've gone into all of this before, I shall leave it for a time that isn't 2 am.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by leftover_crack
All your doing is fueling the stereotype some misguided people here have about christians. Just stop man...


Yes I believe Jesus is my Savouir..etc..but its irrelevant on a forum loaded with athiests

Ok, so you are a Christian and your telling me to stop WITNESSING to those you call athiests?

In the written word I read, JESUS CHRIST stated that he came to heal the sick, not the healthy.

That is all I am doing , sharing the GOSPEL

~Peace~

[connorkimbro]

See? Even connor is more concerned with why Believers believe, than paying attention to what he's supposed to and staying out of trouble.

Ohh, low blow. Hey, i wasn't being antagonistic, i'm just "playing the devil's advocate" as it were. No pun intended.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Kcck
1) If you never heard the gospel of Jesus, then you can't accept him, can you? If you never hear it, you are judged by how well you follow your conscience instead of your faith. God has given all people a conscience, despite their sinful nature. Obvious sinful things, such as murder, will have a, shall we say, "warning" put out by your conscience, telling you it is wrong. Those w/o knowledge of jJesus are judged based on wether or not they do this.

While that is a reasonable thing to think its not Biblicaly justifiable. Jesus himself said you can only reach heaven through him. Or it least the Bible claims he said that.

2) I know God exists from my own experiences. Some of them I can't share, but some of them I will. It just seems odd that I have such good favor with others most of the time. For example, last year, my math grade was a B+, but since my teacher say how hard i worked all year, she bumped it up to an A-. Just a bunch of little things, and a few big things, that prove it to me.

Gosh such a devine experience. You work hard and earn something on your own and that is evidence of god? I have pointed out before the christians have some pretty low standards of what constitutes a reason for belief but that must be the lowest I have seen. Usually its 'feeling' or someone that had cancer recovered from it. Even a feeling is better than this one.

3) Also the creation/evolution debate. Creation, in my opinion, seems to require less faith than evolution requires.

Creation requires not only faith but a denial of evidence by the megaton. Evolution only needs a look at the real evidence in the world. Fossils, lab experiments, people with mutations some of which are advantagious (like some people in Italy that seem to be immune to heart disease and Europeans and Africans that are immune to AIDS). The evidence for evolution is overwhelming to anyone that looks at it. I have noticed most Creationists haven't looked at anything but Creationist claims about evolution.

4) Too many coincidences. Let's take the Gospels of the New Testament for example. They were written by people, correct? That witness Jesus. Why would they say that the desertted Jesus? Wouldn't that give a bad image? Just seems weird someone would lie to make thmeselves look worse...

That may or may not have seen Jesus. No one knows who the actual authors were. Nor is lying needed as the tales were almost certainly told orally long before they were written down and in most cases its likely they were written down by someone other than the original tellers. Tales often grow in the telling. They often incorporate other tales as well. The Authurian legends show this pretty well as parts are clearly French and other parts are clearly Welsh. Parts of the stories of Jesus match stories of other religions. Raising the dead for instance and a virgin birth.

5) Apostles died for their faith. Many of the witnesses of Jesus' reserrection were later persecuted, and then killed. Why would they die for something they knew was a lie?

Two things too that. Many of the Apostles did not die a martyrs death even some that are supposed to have done so. Even so there is no reason to believe they thought anything in the PRESENT Bible was a lie since it didn't exist then. Take a look at Paul and you will see that much about Jesus that is in the New Testament seems to have been unknown to him. Which implies quite strongly that they were added in later.

6) And much, much, more...

Like the Earth is billions of years old for instance and Adam and Even didn't exist and there was no world wide flood that killed all but eight people. Yes there is much more that shows the Bible is only the words of men prone to fallibility and error.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by SlowwHand
Cute.

I think so. Its not nasty or anything and I don't think it puts anyone down. It IS from a satirical site but I don't that impugns the actual picture. I am sort of surpised it wasn't made by a real Surfing Christian. Either Internet of real water.

[SlowwHand]

Yeah it really is cute; and connor, I just wanted to get your attention.