Adam Smith Foundation: Emergency Mapwhoring Plan

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 07:23

I, among pretty much all other citizens of Apolytonia, am against selling our world map or territory map to any of the AIs so that they will not hear about Uber Isle. I am also confident that our armies will eventually emerge victorious and that our human tactics will prove to be far superior to those of the Persian AI.
However, in case that during the next five turns the president might feel that we are in a dire situation and we need some quick cash to rush or upgrade some military units to save the day, I have prepared the following mapwhoring plan to aid us in case that such a need will arise.
The figures are, of course, only estimates. There is no way to know how much gold the AIs will have in the next few turns and exactly how much we can get out of them, so it's likely that the president will have to edit this plan in order to get it to work in the optimal way.
The plan is as follows:

Sell WM to Aztecs for 14g + WM.
Sell WM to Russia for 13g + WM.
Sell WM to Germany for 10g + TM (might offer WM).
Sell WM to Babylon for 23g + WM(?).
Sell WM to Iroquois for 16g + WM.
Sell WM to France for 23g.
Sell WM to Rome for 16g.
Sell WM to America for 16g.
Minimum revenue: 131g.
Estimated revenue: 145g.

Orders to the president: the order of trades listed below is the recommended order. However, since the treasuries of the AIs are expected to grow and shrink the optimal order might change so the president is given a free hand to change the order. Also, the president should press for the largest sum of money possible and then see if the AI will also agree to throw in its WM or TM as well.

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 07:35

On second thought, maybe selling our maps of Uber Isle isn't all that bad. After all, the only way to reach the Isle at the moment is through OUR shores (other access routes are too dangerous and require galleys to stay several turns in trecherous waters) and if the French or another nation tries to enter our territorial waters to settle there we could simply ask them nicely to leave our territory.
Furthermore, look at what 145 gold can do for us. With 40 gold we can upgrade the two spearmen in Ubergorsk to Pikemen (which aggie is already planning to do anyway so we could send one to defend Geofront). With the remaining gold (105g) and 3 more coins we can hurry the swordsman that is being built in Ubergorsk (will cost us 108g), giving us another veteran swordsman that will be a great help to us. With the rest of our money (91g) we'll be able to upgrade the two warriors in Gaia to swordsmen next turn (will cost us 40g) and keep the rest (51g) in the piggy bank.

adaMada · September 10, 2002, 07:49

I understand your point Shiber, and I'd love the extra cash. Having said that, I'd rather ploop a few more cities down on Uber Isle before we go ahead and give our map away -- we don't want to loose that terratory. We'll get more gold later, once we've discovered the entire Island and colonized it. I'm not sure, but if the AI doesn't have knowledge of our cities and units as part of it's cheet (people seem to be disagreeing over what the AI knows), then we could trade that map away as soon as we've A) Colonized the island, and B) are about to declare peace with Persia. If they didn't know about the cities before, and suddenly 'learn' about them, we can probably get a better peace deal, since we'll be an even bigger threat.

I understand, however, that this is just an emergency suggestion, and I agree that it should be kept on the books should it become necessary.

Got one question for whoever can figure it out -- if another Civ will sell us their World Map for eight gold, that means that there are something like four squares we can't see right now, right? Is the two gold per square rule that I heard once really true?

-- adaMada

mrmitchell · September 10, 2002, 08:32

I'd rather not give away UberIsle's map until we get more stuff there. 'Course, the cash could really help, but in the long run, solely claiming all of UberIsle would probably help more. And adaMada's right-if I were a stupid AI, I'd gladly pay more with the discovery of an even stronger empire than expected.

BigFurryMonster · September 10, 2002, 09:03

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
On second thought, maybe selling our maps of Uber Isle isn't all that bad. After all, the only way to reach the Isle at the moment is through OUR shores (other access routes are too dangerous and require galleys to stay several turns in trecherous waters) and if the French or another nation tries to enter our territorial waters to settle there we could simply ask them nicely to leave our territory.

The problem with this is that the AI sometimes just ignores your borders and tries to go right through your territory (as we've seen with some Persian stacks). It might provoke them when we ask them to leave.

I'm not sure whether the AI is willing to risk a Galley + Settler + Unit trying to cross Sea tiles.

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 09:04

adaMada: yes, I believe the rate is 2 gold per every undiscovered/changed tile.

EDIT:
1. Every land tile, of course (dunno if lakes count). You don't get more money for your map if you've discovered new seas and oceans.
2. Or maybe it's 2 gold per every undiscovered tile (which I'm pretty sure of) and 1 gold for every changed tile. Can somebody create a scenario that can be used to experiment with this? I'm kindof busy at the moment.

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 09:15

Quote:

Originally posted by BigFurryMonster

The problem with this is that the AI sometimes just ignores your borders and tries to go right through your territory (as we've seen with some Persian stacks). It might provoke them when we ask them to leave.

I'm not sure whether the AI is willing to risk a Galley + Settler + Unit trying to cross Sea tiles.

To me it seems that the AIs are very unlikely to try to settle there. First of all, it involves risking a galley, a settler and (since the AI never sends settlers undefended) a spearman or pikeman: total cost of 80 or 90 shields. I honestly don't think the AI will be willing to risk all of this.
Second of all, the only reasonable route to Uber Isle is through our territory. I know the AI violates human territory some times but only under certain terms. I doubt it any AI will want to settle on Uber Isle so bad that it'll violate our territory in order to do so.
Please reconsider the plan. It may well mean the difference between taking Tyre, Sidon and Gordium or Antioch and having to sign a peace treaty with Persia in order not to lose Geofront (which will be very hard to retake because of the walls surrounding the town).

P.S. It's too bad we don't have privateers yet. If we had one we could intercept AI galleys and sink them without starting a war.

Aro · September 10, 2002, 09:52

In case of emergency, as a least resource, maybe. But I'm still thinking: don't do that, till we can settler two (maybe three) more cities there. Shiber probably right in his analysis, the man seems to know a lot about Ai (maybe Shiber were an AI in a past life...

). But... let's wait a little more. To obtain the control of Uber Isle, we have to risk galleys again, and we need another one as a backup, our luck can't stands forever. That means more time. IMHO, is too soon to trade maps. At this moment, our TM, or WM, is classified information. Top secret.

vulture · September 10, 2002, 10:09

Shiber is right about the AI. It won't ever risk galleys in dangerous waters, so only the civ with the lighthouse is going to send anything to Uber until Astronomy is discovered. I don't know who has the lighthouse, but you can guarantee that they'll send an expedition to the island as soon as they know about it - the Ai is very willing to sail through your waters, and with boats it's a long time until you get the 'leave or declare war' option usually.

Conversely, since we already have 1 galley there, we can get units across at no further risk. Well, we might lose the occasional empty galley, but that's a comparatively small price. One more settler brought over from the mainland, and one or two produced in situ could well be enough to fill up the island.

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 10:40

There will be a settler ready in Termina in 5 turns. By the time it reaches Apolyton the galleys will be in position to pick it up. In 8 to 10 turns we'll have a second settler on Uber Isle.
AIs don't send settlers over dangerous waters. I have never seen an AI does that and neither have I seen proof anywhere on the net that the AI will send settlers over trecherous waters. Unless someone can provide proof that the AI does send settlers over dangerous waters we can safely assume that it doesn't.
Having said that, the only AI capable of reaching Uber Isle is the Aztecs. They'll need at least 23 turns to get a galley to Uber Isle, and they'll need to construct a settler and a spearman (AIs never send settlers defenseless) and possibly a galley (it's very likely that they don't have one yet) at a total cost of 80 shields. All in all it will take them roughly 35 turns to settle in Uber Isle! (and that's just for ONE settler, the AI never sends two settlers to an island which it has not claimed land on yet) By then we will have 4 or even 5 cities in Uber Isle!
Furthermore, IF the Aztecs settle in Uber Isle it will be TREMENDOUSLY easy to culture-flip their towns since the Aztecs are impressed with our culture and since the Aztec palace is almost at the other side of the world!

The question is: are we willing to give up all this gold, which can be used to upgrade two veteran spearmen into veteran pikemen this turn and produce a veteran swordsman in Ubergorsk next turn, just for the slim chance that the Aztecs will set up one miserable town on our island which can be easily culture-flipped.

I say we execute this plan. The advantages are huge and greatly needed, whereas the sole disadvantage is slim, can easily be undone later and might never even surface.

MrWhereItsAt · September 10, 2002, 10:44

I will really really really not be doing this. If things get desperate or it looks like we may lose a city, my understanding is that I must stop to allow for discussion. There are elements of Apolyton society that would never forgive me for giving away the location to Uber Island, and I would only make such a drastic decision with support from at least one official poll directly agreeing to reveal the location of Uber Island.

But it's nice to know you went to the trouble anyway Shiber.

GhengisFarb™ · September 10, 2002, 10:52

The Aztecs have the lighthouse, and smart money says they have a wandering galley with a settler (AI always does) in the English/Persian coast vicinity. Give any AI the info on Uber and there WILL be at least one Aztec city there before its completely colonized.

Aro · September 10, 2002, 10:58

I completely agree with Ghengis analysis.

Torkkeli · September 10, 2002, 11:04

Quote:

Originally posted by GhengisFarb
The Aztecs have the lighthouse, and smart money says they have a wandering galley with a settler (AI always does) in the English/Persian coast vicinity. Give any AI the info on Uber and there WILL be at least one Aztec city there before its completely colonized.

You could not be more right about this!

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 11:07

Ghengis: I've never observed such behavior. Furthermore, any sightings of galleys carrying settlers still don't prove a thing because to us they may look like they're wandering but they may in fact have a set destination.
Anyway, it looks like it doesn't matter much right now. MWIA is right, such a drastic decision will only be made if something drastic happens and MWIA decides to stop playing in order to inquire the public for further instructions.

MrWhereItsAt · September 10, 2002, 11:12

Thanks for understanding Shiber. Ordinarily this would be an excellent plan, but right now we are stretched too thin. We can't concentrate on the war and on ensuring Uber Island is enough ours to go for these trades just yet.

Soon enough, though. With just a little luck.

GhengisFarb™ · September 10, 2002, 11:18

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
Ghengis: I've never observed such behavior.

You haven't observed a French Galley scouting out a blank settling spot around Apolyton for the last 10 or so turns?

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 11:41

That galley isn't "wandering" or "scouting", it's sailing with a set purpose. We've seen it sail through the quickest route to Persian shores. Someone (I believe it was Aro) already pointed out a likely destination for that galley.
Until we have solid proof that the AI sends wandering galleys with settlers I will not accept this hypothesis.

GhengisFarb™ · September 10, 2002, 11:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
Until we have solid proof that the AI sends wandering galleys with settlers I will not accept this hypothesis.

I'll tell you what, Shiber. I'll make you a bet:

If the French drop a settler out of the galley, I win and you have to join and be active in the $Mini-Game.

If it turns out there isn't a settler in that galley, I'll make you a custom animated era-specific leaderhead set of your choice.

I"M FEELING LUCKY, this bet is open to the first ten members to say "I accept the conditions of GhengisFarb's bet" in the thread linked below.

GhengisFarb's Bookie Thread

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 12:03

What? I'm not joining the $Mini-Game!

I hardly have enough time for the regular game.
I'm willing to bet though. If you win I'll put "I worship GhengisFarb" and a link to your website in my signature for two weeks, and if I win you'll make my dog (the one in the avatar) a leaderhead. I'll send you photos and everything else you might need.

wervdon · September 10, 2002, 12:05

Ive already said Im in favor of signing a temporary 20 turn peace treaty with Persia in order to concentrate on Uber Island mostly and America with what military we have already.

I sure don't favor selling our maps of Uber Island before we finish settling it in order to fund the persian war :P

GhengisFarb™ · September 10, 2002, 12:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
What? I'm not joining the $Mini-Game!

I hardly have enough time for the regular game.

FIBBER!
You start HALF the threads in the Civ3Demo game forum, look at your total and daily postcount! You'd only have to make two posts a week to be active in the $Mini-game.

Chicken! Bwuuuuuk bwuk bwuk bwuk.

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 12:26

"You start HALF the threads in the Civ3Demo game forum"
Yes, during weekends and vacations. On normal school days I can hardly make enough time to read 20% of the posts. My high daily post count resulted in the fact that I only joined Apolyton during the summer vacation and started posting then.

Bah. Screw you, I don't like the $Mini-Game and I'll never join it, not even if you pour molten bananas into my throat or write nasty things in really big letters.

GhengisFarb™ · September 10, 2002, 12:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
"You start HALF the threads in the Civ3Demo game forum"
Yes, during weekends and vacations. On normal school days I can hardly make enough time to read 20% of the posts. My high daily post count resulted in the fact that I only joined Apolyton during the summer vacation and started posting then.

Bah. Screw you, I don't like the $Mini-Game and I'll never join it, not even if you pour molten bananas into my throat or write nasty things in really big letters.

First, I'm sorry my chickens offended you, and will no longer make comments relating to your posts. I had no intention of upsetting you with a comical reply and I apologize.

Okay, but you have 3-4 days per trading session to make your post, but I understand if you just don't like kingdom running simulations.

Shiber · September 10, 2002, 12:51

WHAT?? No, the fat chickens didn't offend me! I liked them. In fact I'm just finishing one right now.
/me spits out a bone.
Seriously, Ghengis, you're gonna have to try a lot harder to offend me, I assure you that.

adaMada · September 10, 2002, 15:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Shiber
adaMada: yes, I believe the rate is 2 gold per every undiscovered/changed tile.

EDIT:
1. Every land tile, of course (dunno if lakes count). You don't get more money for your map if you've discovered new seas and oceans.
2. Or maybe it's 2 gold per every undiscovered tile (which I'm pretty sure of) and 1 gold for every changed tile. Can somebody create a scenario that can be used to experiment with this? I'm kindof busy at the moment.

Thanks Shiber.

That helps me reassure myself I made the right choice in the orders to buy the Iroquis WM, even if it only cost eight gold, and further would lead me to believe that the Greek/Iroquis island is very small (though we'll probably know for sure soon enough).

-- adaMada