Best Use Of A Leader?

IRON_BRIGADE · September 12, 2002, 09:05

My question is this, I have a leader I am also about to finish Copernicous's Labratory the situation is that another civ is a bit closer than I to finishing it.
Is it worth it to use this leader for this wonder or scrap the wonder and keep the leader?
A little background info I am playing the germans so obtaining this wonder realy benifits me how? I know the basic definition but what does it really do in the long run or would the leader be better. The city it is being completed in really needs NO more culture than it has already.

Tiberius · September 12, 2002, 09:30

Quote:

Originally posted by IRON_BRIGADE
Copernicous's Labratory

Copernicous's Labratory? I presume you are a modder and combined the Copernicus' Observatory with a Goblin's Laboratory (from Warcraft3) ? Then rush the wonder and build some zeppelins!

Anyway, I'd keep the leader for a better wonder or build an army with it.
Edited: ...or build the FP if you don't have it yet.

Moonsinger · September 12, 2002, 10:05

Since the Copernicous's Labratory just simply doubles science output in that one city, it's not really worth a life of a great leader. I would save him for the Adam Smith.

zeh · September 12, 2002, 10:38

If you think you can't build Copernicus, change it to another wonder, if there are none aviable, change to palace, then to a wonder when you get the tech.
With your leader, you can build an army, win a battle and build Heroic Epic to be able to get mor leaders and rush wonders that will come, like Magellan's and Universal Sufrage.

Moonsinger · September 12, 2002, 10:45

Quote:

Originally posted by zeh
If you think you can't build Copernicus, change it to another wonder, if there are none aviable, change to palace, then to a wonder when you get the tech.

Yup! Normally, I pre-build the palace and switch it to the Wonder in the last turn; that's way, if the AI beat me to the Wonder, I won't lose all those shields.

PS: If you have the gold, you could investigate their cities to see how far they have to go.

bigvic · September 12, 2002, 14:45

look dude - youu are the gerrmans, right? build an army, beat some puny rabble opposition, and build the heroic epic as soon as possible, hell, build it wherre you were going to build copernicus' observatory by swithching overr production. then, with the increased chance to get more leaders, you can aim for newtons university, if you want to burn a leader for a wonder. you'll probably get sewveral more with the heroic epic as the militaristic germans - if you stay at war. and unless you are perverse, or just in the middle of a breathing space infrastructure buildup, if you are the germans, you should be at war most of the time, stealling gold from vaults, bulying enemies for gold, luxuries, maps, cities, and tech, then ganking them when you feel like it. a good, well thought out steady war strategy with a militaristic civ like the germans is the best way to develop. just be smart about it and run a cool diplomatic game - unless you are just plain mean.

but build that army - do it!

Keeper of Hell · September 12, 2002, 16:16

Germans aren't necessarily a great choice for constant militaristic expansion unless you happen to have a fortuitous situation like this developing. Basically, with Germany, you have two primary directives: early archer rush(es) to keep locals in check in Ancient Times, then settle down and keep yourself unobtrusive until Motorized Transportation. Once you make it, start the blitzkrieg, using the GA you get to fuel a meteoric ascent to power and dominance. The Panzer blitzes don't stop until Computers (and, by association, MI). As the Germans, you don't need to be constantly fighting to get to the top eventually... just keep yourself in the running and bide your time, then make your foes pay when you develop the mighty Panzer.

Stuie · September 12, 2002, 16:24

Quote:

Originally posted by bigvic
build an army, beat some puny rabble opposition, and build the heroic epic as soon as possible, hell, build it wherre you were going to build copernicus' observatory by swithching overr production

That's exactly what I was going to suggest.

IRON_BRIGADE · September 12, 2002, 17:34

Well here is the thing I am still in the learning stages of this game and only recently have I been able to survive as far as I have before they all are pissed at me and crush me. I play scientific to stay ahead of the race and to have some barganing chips to keep the ai's happy and make a little gold on the side. I only chose the militaristic charactoristic because I need a strong defense for when one of those civs comes and tries to topple me. Frankly I have a very difficult time mounting any offense in the early game I just cant seem to get that balance between many war units and expansion and city improvements and on and on that is really were i fail not enough war units then you have to contend with a mysterious war model Tell me how a regular spearman in the woods can take down a veteran pikeman on level plains Pikeman is offense in this case Or a stinking warrior taking down a swordsman. these are topics that could start a whole new thread, Mystries to me.
So in my current game I am playing against 4 other civs and we are about 1300AD they are all except one polite or causios to me and the one russian civ which i pinched into a peace treaty by taking a city and giving it back will go back to war at the drop of a hat. I am attempting to back fill what is left of the whole map all the while i have the others attempting to sneek across my land to get behind me. I kick em off they start to get pissed I have accumulated the most wonders of any civ on the map so far about 5 or 6 i think
any thoughts

vondrack · September 12, 2002, 18:30

Quote:

Originally posted by IRON_BRIGADE
Well here is the thing I am still in the learning stages of this game and only recently have I been able to survive as far as I have before they all are pissed at me and crush me. I play scientific to stay ahead of the race and to have some barganing chips to keep the ai's happy and make a little gold on the side. I only chose the militaristic charactoristic because I need a strong defense for when one of those civs comes and tries to topple me.

I will not go into details, but you may wish to reread the chapter on specific civ traits in your manual. I have that feeling that you are not 100% correct about what various traits mean. For example, being militaristic does very little in terms of your defense (however, it makes your barracks cheaper to build and promotes your victorious units more often).

Quote:

Originally posted by IRON_BRIGADE
Frankly I have a very difficult time mounting any offense in the early game I just cant seem to get that balance between many war units and expansion and city improvements and on and on that is really were i fail not enough war units then you have to contend with a mysterious war model Tell me how a regular spearman in the woods can take down a veteran pikeman on level plains Pikeman is offense in this case Or a stinking warrior taking down a swordsman. these are topics that could start a whole new thread, Mystries to me.

OK, it is something you HAVE to understand before going to war. The combat model in Civ3 is based on the ADM characteristics of individual units.

A = attack rating
D = defense rating
M = movement

The spearman is a 1/2/1 unit. It has an attack rating of 1, defense rating of 2, and movement of 1. Similarly, the pikeman is a 1/3/1 unit. Whenever two units fight each other, it's basically about dice rolls. The attacker uses an A-sided dice, the defender uses a D-sided dice (actually a Dmod-sided dice, as the defender almost always gets some sort of a defensive bonus).

Assume this pikemen of yours attacks an enemy spearman that happens to be stationed in a forest. First, so-called modifiers are determined. In this case, any unit defending in a forest gets a defensive bonus of 25%... the spearman becomes effectively a 1/2.5/1 unit.

The two units throw their dices then... in each roll, random numbers from <0;A> (i.e. <0;1> in this case) and <0;Dmod> (i.e. <0;2.5> in this case) are generated. Whoever gets the smaller number, looses one hitpoint. This is repeated until one of the units runs out of its hitpoints, dying.

A pikeman attacking a spearman in a forest has only a 1:2,5 (28,5%) chance of winning one round of combat (i.e. lowering the spearman's health by 1 hitpoint). It is because his attack rating is very low (A=1 only). His overall chances of winning the whole battle are even lower (less than 23%), as he has to win 3 rounds, while losing not more than 2. Try the Civulator to see what the chances are for various unit combinations.

You need to use units with a high or relatively high defense for defense (spearmen, pikemen, riflemen, infantry, mech. infantry) and those with a high or relatively high attack rating for attack. Do your best to have your unit use its higher rating whenever possible.

Does this help at least a bit?

nationalist · September 12, 2002, 18:47

Save your leader for Leonardo's Workshop or Adam Smith's exchange.

Theseus · September 12, 2002, 19:14

Vondrack, there should be a "I am bowing to you in respect for the effort" emoticon.

Flight · September 12, 2002, 20:00

personally i thought he made it unnecessarily complicated

Alantus · September 12, 2002, 20:13

1st leader? Build Army, win fight! Build small wonders! Use second leader to build stuff. I would have hard time burning first leader on a wonder that affects 1 city.

Alantus

Kingof the Apes · September 12, 2002, 20:25

Yes, I agree with Alantus. Save it for a better wonder, or build an army to kill your enimies the russians. If a civ is ahead of you constructing the observatory, micromanage the city tiles. Leaders come too rarely to use on a wonder that is almost finished.

kring · September 12, 2002, 21:15

How much of the city building CO is mined, roaded/railroaded/irrigated?

How close is the other civ to finishing it?

bigvic · September 12, 2002, 22:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Keeper of Hell
Germans aren't necessarily a great choice for constant militaristic expansion unless you happen to have a fortuitous situation like this developing. Basically, with Germany, you have two primary directives: early archer rush(es) to keep locals in check in Ancient Times, then settle down and keep yourself unobtrusive until Motorized Transportation. Once you make it, start the blitzkrieg, using the GA you get to fuel a meteoric ascent to power and dominance. The Panzer blitzes don't stop until Computers (and, by association, MI). As the Germans, you don't need to be constantly fighting to get to the top eventually... just keep yourself in the running and bide your time, then make your foes pay when you develop the mighty Panzer.

yeah, that used to be my philosophy for playing the germans, as well as other later uu civs, but i just don't think so now......

i almost ignore early wonders - depending on game conditions. research goes into military apps - wheel, horseback riding and iron working, then beelining to literature for the cheap libraries that will help keep me ahead techwise of the more early uu gifted powers. judicious use of elite units gain early leaders, esp. if u build the heroic epic. i then build armies til i have 3 - then its the pentagon for 4 unit armies and as soon as mil tradition i plop down the mil academy in one of my highest production cities and churn out army after army - really evens the playing field vs. those early/mid game uu powerhouses. only after the 3rd leader do i rush buy stuff. only early improvements i concentrate on are libraries and barracks - culture and science from the 1st and high morale from the 2nd - and both so cheap. after i've conquered my continent or a highly defensible chunk of it, usually by mid renaissance, i hedgehog, go to peadce and build infrastructure and good name til................PANZERS!

though a good army based military kicks ai ass even before those things are availeable. again, well thought out war gains u tech, money, and all sorts of goodies - thats what militaristic is all about.

vondrack · September 13, 2002, 03:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
Vondrack, there should be a "I am bowing to you in respect for the effort" emoticon.

Just a cheap +1-er, Theseus...

I, unworthy, have very little chance to elighten others on the fine virtues of strategy... so I do my best to contribute to the Poly community by answering the "easier" questions, leaving you and other master strategists free to focus on the more delicate subjects...

Quote:

Originally posted by Flight
personally i thought he made it unnecessarily complicated

You naughty! I tried to be illustrative and understandable and precise and... and... grrrr... Have YOU tried to explain this damn combat stuff?

Just kidding

EDIT: typos

Proteus_MST · September 13, 2002, 06:54

Most of the times I let my first leader generate an army cos it gives me, just as bigvic mentioned, the opportunity to build the heroic epic and the military academy (i.e. after the army wins it first battle).
All other leaders are used to hurry wonders.

Is the Copernicus Observatory worth sacrificing your first leader. IMHO not. I would use him if it would be a race for Wonders such as Leonardos Workshop, Adam Smiths Trading Company, the Hoover Dam, or something like that, i.e. for wonders which affect the whole Nation, but not for a wonder which affects only one city.

Arrian · September 13, 2002, 09:32

IronBrigrade,

It sounds to me like you aren't really a militaristic player, but more of a builder. Therefore, I say hold the leader for a better wonder, and switch copernicus to either a different wonder or a palace to save up shields. Good choices for the leader:

Bach
Adam Smith

I assume the early medieval wonders have been completed? (Sun Tzu, Sistine, Leo)

By the way, the advantages conveyed by the militaristic trait are:

1) 1/2 price barracks, walls, harbors, airports
2) Increased chance of unit promotion (thus, more elite units and therefore more chances for leaders)

This is a warmonger's trait. If you do not do a lot of fighting, then I strongly suggest you pick different trait combo (if you like scientific, then I suggest trying Babylon and Persia).

-Arrian

IRON_BRIGADE · September 13, 2002, 09:41

ok, I have placed the leader in reserve till my next war.

Someone mentioned my lack of civ understanding. That may only be gleaned from my long paragraph above because it would have been longer to really explain my resoning for choosing germans. As it stands we all will find our self at war and I need an advantage that fact alone is my defense on the civ I have choosen. understand. I stand a better chance of survival with a militaristic civ than non until i can better learn the game.

Here is another strange thing I had aobut 5 to 7 elites during the war with russai These elites won about a total of 15 or so battles, and i only got one leader from all that. how does this work? Does one elite have to win so many battles and then you trigger a random generation of a leader OR do all elites win a certain # of battles collectively to gernerate?

Adm.Naismith · September 13, 2002, 09:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Kingof the Apes
Save it for a better wonder, or build an army to kill your enimies the russians.

Leaders come too rarely to use on a wonder that is almost finished.

Just to add for iron_brigade a sidenote to the concept of "save the Leader for later use": please remember that you can't have more than one (1) leader available at a time.

If you are fighting a war, keeping a leader without using it is very bad, because the rules negates you any other Leader appearance after a succesful elite battle!

vondrack · September 13, 2002, 09:57

Quote:

Originally posted by IRON_BRIGADE
Here is another strange thing I had aobut 5 to 7 elites during the war with russai These elites won about a total of 15 or so battles, and i only got one leader from all that. how does this work? Does one elite have to win so many battles and then you trigger a random generation of a leader OR do all elites win a certain # of battles collectively to gernerate?

Every time your elite wins a battle, there is a chance of 1:16 that a great leader will emerge (1:12 if you have built the Heroic Epic small wonder before). It is just pure luck, even if the probability count should apply in the long run... sometimes you will win 50 battles with your elites and get no leader at all, sometimes you will get several of them on the same turn... Bear in mind though, that you can have only one leader at a given time. Until you use it up (creating an army or finishing a wonder), you can't get any more leaders.

IRON_BRIGADE · September 13, 2002, 11:35

Good
thanks for all the input
I'll put it into play and see what churns out.

Arrian · September 13, 2002, 11:36

Quote:

Someone mentioned my lack of civ understanding. That may only be gleaned from my long paragraph above because it would have been longer to really explain my resoning for choosing germans. As it stands we all will find our self at war and I need an advantage that fact alone is my defense on the civ I have choosen. understand. I stand a better chance of survival with a militaristic civ than non until i can better learn the game.

Actually, though it seems counterintuative, I would argue that you do NOT stand a better chance of survival as a militaristic civ. If your goal is to hold your own and learn the game, I think you should pick at least 1 of the top two traits: Religious and Industrious. Your civ will be stronger overall, and thus better able to withstand attack - or forestall attack in the first place.

If survival in ancient times is a major concern, perhaps try a civ with a powerful ancient UU (Persia, for instance).

Yeah, only one leader at a time. Thus, if you get one while fighting a major war, it is generally a good idea to use that leader ASAP, and avoid risking any elites in combat until the leader has been used up.

-Arrian

bigvic · September 13, 2002, 19:09

yeah, good advice all around. still, remember mil civs fight war well. i still suggest not blowing a leader to build a wonder til you get 3 field armies - that 4th unit in armies really helps. also with mil civs i rarely build sun tzu's art of war. barracks are so cheap and youre a fool not to build lots of 'em from the beginning, so why bother? i start it always, but only to switch over to leo's workshop - now that really helps, being able to upgrade mass numbers of units, esp. for the germans who need to stay ahead in tech due to early uu deficiencies. but don't worry about missing out on early wonders. build those armies, strengthen those armies with the pentagon (ie need 3 armies - rush buy wonders after #3) and take said wonders from the other schmucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IRON_BRIGADE · September 14, 2002, 20:10

As new to the game that I am, I must say this, I dont quite believe the religious trait is at the top of the characteristic list the strats of this very web site even say it is not the strongest trait. I beleive MILL and Commercial and Scientific are really the strongest traits
Industrious would be except it is give so many constraints such as map you pick or what other trait you pare it with and it really only lends itself to early game.
It seams that war is a major player in the game for a whole lotta people so MILL is probly picked alot as a choice of civ am I wrong about this?
What do you think all?

vondrack · September 14, 2002, 20:15

It is generally considered that the INDUSTRIOUS is the best trait (it seems to me that you are confusing it with the Expansionist trait).

IRON_BRIGADE · September 14, 2002, 20:18

yes yes
you are correct
expansionist is what im thinking of.

but at the same time since industrious has been corrected does it not fall in the middle of the list of importance or ranked higher?

vondrack · September 14, 2002, 20:28

Industrious has been the same since the game came out, I believe - the fact that industrious workers work twice as fast as non-industrious is what makes this trait SO powerful. Commercial was adjusted in 1.29f (now it is not the weakest trait, which it used to be...).

I believe that there is no doubt about the best trait... Religious may be the second best trait, due to the lack of anarchy between governments and cheap religious (=cultural) improvements... however, I know I would stir things a lot pretending there is an obvious runner-up...