What technologies don't the AIs research?

Theseus · September 12, 2002, 19:22

Sorry for the semi-mangled grammar, but I was trying to match "What technologies don't you need?" and make another point.

I've been proselytizing about gaining a tech lead in branches that the AI doesn't research, or at least prioritize.

It occurs to me that the best of all worlds is clearly when it's a tech that you want / need (I know, not quite the same as the other question, which was about progressing through the eras).

I can't for the life of me remember what techs are best for this purpose... my standard approach is just to NOT research whatever the science advisor suggests.

So here's the question:

What should you research that is both critical to your game, but that will probably be something that you can sell like mad?
______________________________

[Edit... ongoing contributions]:
[Edit again... split the list up]:

Critical path:
Currency - Zachriel
Steam Power(!) - consensus
Music Theory* - The Yankee
Ecology - Carver

Others:
Free Artistry - The Yankee
Printing Press - Carver
Democracy - Sheik

I know that Music Theory is not necessarily critical, but I put a very high priority on Bach's, so...

Sheik · September 12, 2002, 19:42

Democracy

Carver · September 12, 2002, 19:46

Ecology and printing press. In a game where I was the first to get ecology I traded it for all the techs I was missing (like 8). I wound up owning everyone's gold, having all luxuries coming in and having a map of everything.

Theseus · September 12, 2002, 19:58

Excellent.

I'm going to edit the first post, and try to make a running list.

Keeper of Hell · September 12, 2002, 20:12

Obviously, a lot of how fast techs are researched has to do with how many AIs are present on the map. Ideally, you should make a game with yourself and one AI player, then turn off your tech research and watch what techs the AI researches and in what order. Of course, this would get tiresome quickly, especially since you'd need to play similar games five or six times with different civs to make sure that your results are reasonably accurate, but if there's a pattern to be had, this is the way to have it. If you don't want to do a bunch of boring experimental games, then the only way to get data is to try and watch AIs in a normal game. From my own observation, AI civs seem to neglect the lower tech path (the Medicine through Electronics branch) in the Industrial Age in order to hit most of the middle areas (The Corporation, Industrialization, etc.). The difference is sometimes not as noticeable, and it could be attributed to the AI's tendancy to research early techs in each Era rather than following one linear tech path to the exlusion of others. You can normally exploit this by going for one branch exclusively and then trading your "specialization" for the more general, ground-level techs that the AIs have been working on. This works particularly well in the Industrial Era, when you can speedily make your way to Scientific Method and grab ToE, thus making your specialization even quicker and enabling you to quickly pick up the techs the AI has been working at.

Kingof the Apes · September 12, 2002, 20:28

I have seen many variables.Usually the computers get knights, but in a game I'm playing now no one has researched chivalry, but greece is one tech away from military tradition

Kingof the Apes · September 12, 2002, 20:44

I have seen many variables.Usually the computers get knights, but in a game I'm playing now no one has researched chivalry, but greece is one tech away from military tradition

Jaybe · September 12, 2002, 22:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Kingof the Apes
I have seen many variables.Usually the computers get knights, but in a game I'm playing now no one has researched chivalry, but greece is one tech away from military tradition

Sounds like it was a peaceful game during the chivalry stage. There just didn't seem to be a need for it ...

Wormwood · September 12, 2002, 22:23

I find that the AI, in the ancient age, often tends to research the upper branches, and tends to have currency and construction before, but I can usually get to Monarchy first, and selling it is qite lucrative.

dojoboy · September 12, 2002, 22:27

Quote:

Originally posted by Wormwood
I find that the AI, in the ancient age, often tends to research the upper branches, and tends to have currency and construction before, but I can usually get to Monarchy first, and selling it is qite lucrative.

This has been my experience also. Even on monarch level, and sometimes emperor, I reach monarchy first and trade for several techs & gold.

dojoboy · September 12, 2002, 22:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Wormwood
I find that the AI, in the ancient age, often tends to research the upper branches, and tends to have currency and construction before, but I can usually get to Monarchy first, and selling it is qite lucrative.

This has been my experience also. Even on monarch level, and sometimes emperor, I reach monarchy first and trade for several techs & gold.

The Yankee · September 12, 2002, 22:51

Depending on whether you're the only one who has it and if the wonder has not been built, the AI sometimes gives some good scratch for Music Theory and Free Artistry, as well as Communism. You may get a few techs out of each, but at the very least you can get some gold and/or luxuries.

Theseus · September 12, 2002, 23:02

Yankee, I'm gonna throw up Music Theory and Free Artistry, which I have also seen ignored by the AI civs, but I'm pretty sure they go for Communism fairly regularly.

BTW, everyone should feel free to argue about this list.

(uh, what am I thinking... 'poly=argue)

Hurricane · September 13, 2002, 01:38

If you start as religious, Polytheism is the best bet as first tech. You can often research this one first of all even at 40 turns. Writing is a good bet if you start with Alphabet.

I'm not so sure about Music Theory. My experience is that some AI always will go for it very fast. They probably like JS Bach's as mush as I do.

Arrian · September 13, 2002, 09:47

Theseus,

I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that the AI will tend to ignore dead end techs if someone (hmm... ME) has a large tech lead.

In my current game (Aztecs... still haven't gotten the hang of the best use of Jags, but things still went well), France is the top remaining AI civ. They researched their way straight to communism, but still didn't have military tradition (which I then sold to them for 100gpt, almost hoping they would pick a fight). I think the AI would have researched MT if I hadn't been so far ahead.

Speaking of the AI beeline for communism, this means it is slow at getting the really important IA techs. It seems to LOVE medicine, and will gladly offer up its left nut for it. Given time, however, the AI will research medicine on its own.

My own observations confirm that they tend to ignore printing press. That means demo too, unless they are given printing press. Once they have that, they will research demo. France did.

Music Theory will be ignored if Bach's has been built. Otherwise, they will go for it. *good job there, Soren*

They seem to always ignore Free Artistry. *another good job there, but it would have been better to remove it entirely, or change its purpose*

-Arrian

Lucilla · September 13, 2002, 18:02

I changed my strategy in the last 2 games (monarch level) and decided to go for the cheapest tech possible.
As I'm behind in tech on this level anyway, I might as well choose the one to be reached the easiest. If I'm lucky, there's a civ that doesn't have it yet and I can sell it. If I go for the more expensive ones, it takes ages to reach them, and I stay behind with the others at the same time.
The more expensive techs I need to buy anyway, so I put most of my income into taxes, not into research.
Only when I'm close to discovering a tech that only few or none of the other civs own, I increase science spending to speed up the research.
Don't know whether that's the best strategy, but it seems to work ok for me.

Zachriel · September 14, 2002, 12:09

I usually set Science on 0%-10% from the the beginning and build a cash reserve. Once having bought the necessary prerequisites, I will then increase Science funding dramatically -- even if this puts me in negative cash flow.

Cleopatra's Vision is an example of this with Science funding reaching 70% from 800BC to 70BC, and culminating in Literature.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm9/bc0800-Vision.htm

Zachriel · September 14, 2002, 12:17

Quote:

Originally posted by Theseus
So here's the question:

What should you research that is both critical to your game, but that will probably be something that you can sell like mad?

Put me down for Currency. I nearly always get Currency before the rival Civs, and nearly always get rich and achieve technological parity when I do.

Then, of course, I build Marketplaces.

(Minor edit for accuracy and clarity.

)

Zachriel · September 14, 2002, 12:26

-

Jawa Jocky · September 15, 2002, 01:02

I'm always selling sanitation to the AI even when I'm few techs behind.

vmxa1 · September 15, 2002, 02:35

By the time I get to sanitation, I am not likely to be making anymore trades or selling anything. Just dropping the hammer.

Theseus · September 15, 2002, 03:13

Really? I'm starting to enjoy late-game machinations... given that there may be a few killer AI civs at this point, I like to not only wage direct warfare, but also trigger a messy geo-political mosh pit (i.e., lots of red lines!).

vmxa1 · September 15, 2002, 13:24

Oh, I will have lots of red lines alright, mostly pointing to me.

Wormwood · September 15, 2002, 15:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Zachriel

Put me down for Currency. I nearly always get Currency before the rival Civs, and nearly always get rich and achieve technological parity when I do.

Then, of course, I build Marketplaces.

(Minor edit for accuracy and clarity.

)

I find that interesting. I'm usually one of the last to get currency, because I go for Literature and then Monarchy, and then sell Monarchy to the AI for Currency and Construction, which are really necessary to make Monarchy viable.

Arrian · September 16, 2002, 12:18

Quote:

By the time I get to sanitation, I am not likely to be making anymore trades or selling anything. Just dropping the hammer.

Agreed. I *may* sell the AI medicine. No way in hell I'm giving them sanitation, though. Hospitals really boost their power, since they will bring in a bunch more money and their cities will get the metropolis defense bonus. Screw that. I like keeping the AI poor and backward, to the extent it is possible.

I'm usually behind in tech until the end of the ancient era/beginning of the middle ages, because my focus is on building & upgrading my strike force(s). If I can get Monarchy first, I will, but not to trade. In my newest Aztec attempt, I was laughably far behind for some time, since my neighbors were the Iroquois, Americans and Zulu. 3 expansionists who traded everything they got! The Zulu built the Pyramids and GL! I've NEVER seen a strong Zululand. The game would be a real good one (I have a pretty good Palace/FP setup and am just mopping up the continent with Knights) but for the as-yet-undiscovered Egyptians who have reeled off the Sistine and Sun Tzu in quick succession (the latter 2 turns before I would have completed it. "Sir, are you aware that switching from Sun Tzu to Colosseum will result in the loss of 450 shields?") OUCH! I rushed Leo's w/a leader and now regret that decision.

But I digress. Sorry.

-Arrian

Theseus · September 16, 2002, 13:03

In picking up Knightblade's game over the weekend, I really had to put this technique to the test.

I started out researching Astronomy, maybe 1-2 turns of research complete, and behind by at least 5 techs. I switched to Printing Press, got there first sold to all, then did the same with Democracy. That got me caught up to only 2 behind. A little Knight music on India, and I extorted my way to parity.

But that wasn't enough!! I really wanted to gain absolute control by the time of the industrial 'corridor.' Beelined for Rep Parts, selling Steam Power and Electricity. Sanitation... sold it. Scientific Theory... sold it (I had a really good pre-build).

In the process, I got every other tech I wanted, got rich, and basically bankrupted the AI civs. By the time I put the game down, I was in the 'corridor,' with a 3 tech lead.

vmxa1 · September 16, 2002, 13:23

Yes that is how I see, if I sell them a tech that is the prereq for a strong tech, that will help them more than some cash will help me. I will sell/trade tech that is dead end or all are likely working so all I save them is a small amount of time for them. Holding back their growth is a goal and towards that end, I like to smash some cities and troops so they have to spent resources on them, rather than improving.

Theseus · September 17, 2002, 18:53

I just read Bella Hella's account in the strategy forum... I'm starting to get the sense that Steam Power is a low AI priority, which could make it THE must-have-first tech in the entire game, setting up Scientific Theory and the ToE, Atomic Theory and Electronics and Hoover, and then control of the late industrial 'corridor.'

Any thoughts?

vmxa1 · September 17, 2002, 20:20

I consider it a priority already. Even though I will not trade or sell it. I want the RR's and I do not want them to have them any sooner that necessary. By this time in the game I am getting ready to hurt somebody and RR will allow me to defend my cities with a minimum of troops. If I see that another AI already has it then I would be willing to deal.

Catt · September 17, 2002, 23:00

I also consider Steam Power a priority - I can't remember the last time I didn't select Steam Power as my first Industrial Age research project.

My anecdotal experience is that the AI will not avoid Steam Power, however. They seem to go after Nationalism first, then Steam Power (the scientific civs seem to go after Steam Power after getting Nationalism upon entering the age). I've come to expect the AI civs to beeline towards Industrialization -- although they don't necessarily rush to build factories, I have always suspected that they covet the first available wonder of the age - Universal Suffrage.

All anecdotal of course, but I have come to expect from the AIs: Nationalism, Steam Power, Industrialization, and then a smattering of Communism / Espionage / Medicine. Assuming rough tech parity upon entering the age (as opposed to a good lead or a serious shortcoming) I've found an opening research path of Steam Power, Industrialization, Electricity, Medicine, and Scientific Method usually allows me to have a good shot at U.S., gets RR's and factories up and running early, allows in some cases a second or third civ price on researching Medicine, offers the ability to trade Electricty for mucho gold and Nationalism, Communism and Espionage, and still doesn't put ToE too much at risk. All of which is capped by ToE providing Atomic Theory and Electronics (while manually researching Replaceable Parts and sometimes buying the Corporation). In times of heavy warfare, I might slip RP in somewhere early in the stream. A poor pre-build timing might also allow me to research Atomic Theory manually, and thereby secure Electronics and Radio with ToE.

As varied as I like my games to play out, the entry into, and then the mid-game portion of, the Industrial Age seems to follow a well-trodden path regardless of civ played, map features, game play to that point etc.

Catt