Runoff Poll for GL

[Aggie]

This poll is the runoff for the GL options.
They are build and army or build Sun Tsu's War Academy.
Vote away
Aggie

[Shiber]

It's Sun Tzu's Art of War, not War Academy. AFAIK Sun Tzu never held an Academy.
Anyway, vote for Sun Tzu's! Here is a link to the discussion & poll thread that preceeded this thread.

[Aggie]

Sorry about the name slip us, ooops. For some reason thats how I alwyas think about it in my games. Thanks shiber for posting the link.
Aggie

[wervdon]

I voted army then given the two choices remaining. The reasoning is in the other thread, but Ill go ahead and repost it here to keep the discussion centralized:

Repost:
Just for clarification what was the ai's demanding price for theology if we bought it now? Normally, Id automatically agree and say why pay alot when we will get it for free in the near future, but it maybe worth it since we'd also be basically buying the sistine.

If that is truelly out of the question though, Ill go ahead and vote for the army. The main reason is I think there's a good chance we'll end up owning Sun Tzu's anyways if the English or Germans get it, and there's still a decent chance even if the Greeks or Aztecs get it. As war-like as this game has been to this point though, and assuming its not going to change, the heroic epic, military academy, and pentagon could be a great benefit to us in the long run. Especially the military academy, which IMO is the real reason to take an army now and not the HE which may or may not ever benefit us.

End Repost
Even though it seems the decision has been made not to do it, Id still like to know what the price for theology would of been for my own satisfaction that we are doing the best we can do.

It'd also be nice if someone who can actually get the save to load without a critical exception would look at the wonders screen and report which cities are building Sun Tzu's. I doubt we have enough lytons to investigate them and figure out where it'll be (and thus how hard it'll be to get in a more creative manner later), but it'd still give us a vague idea. In any case, I think the army now and more armies later from the military academy will give us just as much benefit as Sun Tzu's will, and will also allow us the epic to increase the odds of future leaders.

[BigFurryMonster]

Rome (Roman), Sparta (Greek), Tenochtitlan (Aztec), Salamanca (Iroquois), Rheims (French), Berlin (German), Nottingham (English), Moscow (Russian), Babylon (Babylonian) and Pasargadae (Persian) are constructing the SunTzu's.

[GhengisFarb™]

SunTzu for the myriad reasons posted in the discussion thread.

1) Never expires, armies quickly become outdated.

2) Funny thing is no one wants to use the Army, simply build it. That does nothing for improving GL odds OR the Heroic Epic. It has to win a combat first.

3) Our Elite troops on the front will heal in one turn go out and take another shot at generating a GL, that greatly increases our odds MUCH better than the 4-5% extra chance you get from the Heroic Epic.

4) With Sun Tzu and our Elite troops fighting at full hit points more often we'll get another GL and then build the Sistine AND an Army AND the FP.

[wervdon]

"Rome (Roman), Sparta (Greek), Tenochtitlan (Aztec), Salamanca (Iroquois), Rheims (French), Berlin (German), Nottingham (English), Moscow (Russian), Babylon (Babylonian) and Pasargadae (Persian) are constructing the SunTzu's"

-rofl- So basically everyone is. So as soon as we build it, they all have to change or lose shields. Whats the chances they all change to sistines :P

[kring]

The Army. Then, load it up with our best units, go win a battle, then we can build the Heroic Epic. That will give us better odds on future GL's and in this game, we need all the help we can get.

I agree with nye, the Art of War is a low benefit WoW. The increase in probability for a GL is a long term benefit. Considering we have adopted a war attitude, the Army would benefit us more than the Art of War.

[Shiber]

Well spoken Ghengis.

[DeathByTheSword]

art of war for all the reasons already stated and because the book it self is just the best book out there on military tactics. SUN TZU rules big time. and yes ofcourse because armies in civIII sux but that is besides the point

[kring]

Build the Army and use it. Even if you only put in one or two units, and save the other slot for later.

Barracks are cheap to build.

[GePap]

We know the benefits of getting the Art of War, and we also know the dangers of a major civ. getting it, which would make thier armies far more formidable, as Shiber has stated. We don't know if we ever will get another GL because it is random. We might get a dozen without the heroic epic, 3 with, 0 without- we just can't know: we should not make policy based on the probabiliuty of winning the GL lottery, that is gambling. We should make policy based on what we know. GL's aren't a solution. I would like to be able to build an economy capable of bulding great wonders without GL help. I would like even to build a force and empire so great that all the wonders of the world won't defeat us. Getting the Art of War, forever giving our armies a boost and denying the advantage of professionalism to the enemies armies will help us in that respect.

L

[GhengisFarb™]

With Sun Tzu all newly aquired cities will have barracks allowing elite units to heal in one turn versus the 2-3 turns otherwise.

Elite units with Sun Tzu can attack every other turn.
Elite units without Sun Tzu can attack every 4th turn.
So with Sun Tzu our Elite units can attack twice as often or better.

GL generation odds:
* If your elite is attacking and you do not have the Heroic Epic wonder, 1/16
* If your elite is attacking and you have the Heroic Epic wonder, 1/12

With Sun Tzu 1/16 + 1/16 = 1/8 or 12.5% of a GL
(or TWO shots with a 6.25% chance of a GL)
With Heroic Epic 1/12 or 8.3% of a GL



* If your elite is defending and you do not have the Heroic Epic wonder, 1/32
* If your elite is defending and you have the Heroic Epic wonder, 1/24

With Sun Tzu 1/32 + 1/32 = 1/16 or 6.25% of a GL
(or TWO shots with a 3.1% chance of a GL)
With Heroic Epic 1/24 or 4.1% of a GL


So Sun Tzu INCREASES our odds of producing a GL BETTER than the Heroic Epic which can be built anytime after we've built an Army (an Army can be built at anytime from any GL). Sun Tzu can only be built ONCE and by ONLY ONE civ and after that there is no chance to ever build it again.

The two options:
1) Build an army
....Load it with units
....Haul it to the Battlefield
....Hope it wins a battle
....Wait for another GL so we can build the Heroic Epic.

2) Build Sun Tzu

Sun Tzu is instantaneous whereas the army/HE is MANY turns down the line and odds are we will have generated 2-4 more GLs BEFORE it would have even gotten built.

Also, while Sun Tzu outperforms the HE in every aspect it also:
1) Heals units in cities in 1 turn, greatly increasing the chance of holding border cities against enemy attack.

2) Eliminates the maintenance for all of the barracks.

3) ALL units we produce from now on will be veterans.



And for everyone who claims barracks are cheap, think of the construction cost TIMES 20 cities and the maintenance cost TIMES 20 cities. IMHO that isn't cheap. On Uber Isle alone it would save us 120 shields and 6 gpt.

[DeathByTheSword]

i have to state again that SUN TZU was a great guy. if you done know what i mean read the above post of GenghisFarb.

[Aggie]

Ghengis . That is the best analysis so far. One thing to say though, it only produces barrack on its continent I thought. Still I always see it and leonardo as great wonders(not a good leonardo was in civ2, but still cool).
Aggie

[adaMada]

Ok, I'm starting to lean towards Sun Tzus, especially since I want a wonder really badly . We'd have to actually defend the city with Sun Tzus in it well (at least three pikemen/defensive units at all times), since I don't know if the AI strikes for wonder cities and it'd be a real shame to loose it because we were stupid. I still want Leos, but no one's going to agree with me on the waiting issue, so I think this is the best second choice.

-- adaMada

[ixnay]

Go with Sun Tsu.

[kring]

The odds are not cumulative, nor additive. So, you would just have 2 chances instead of 1 at either 1/16 or 1/32 since each chance is independent of the other.

You don't have to waste a separate GL to build the HE. You can build it naturally; also, the shields could be switched to another Wonder if the opportunity arose before it was built. Conversely, the shields could be switched to it if we lost a Wonder race.

The attacking every 4th turn you mention would only apply if we had units that had been heavily damaged. The same results could be achieved by rush building, or building, Barracks the old fashioned way. It is not the game ender not to get the Art of War. How many Veteran and Elite units do we already have? We have a number of Barracks already.

We don't have to build Barracks in every city. Also, it is continental only, so it wouldn't affect the island unless we built it there. Then, it wouldn't affect the continent.

The FP would be a better use if you were going to rush something, unless we get Sistine Chapel ability immediately.

[Duddha]

We need a wonder.

[Shiber]

Two thumbs up for Ghengis. I must say you've done a terrific job in explaining to everyone why building Sun Tzu's is SO MUCH better than building an army.

[Jonny]

Build Sun Tzu's.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Aggie
Ghengis . That is the best analysis so far. One thing to say though, it only produces barrack on its continent I thought. Still I always see it and leonardo as great wonders(not a good leonardo was in civ2, but still cool).
Aggie

Crud, forgot about that . In my BIC I reedited all wonders to affect all cities, no continent specific wonders except the Hoover Dam. Course I also edited Swordsmen to upgrade to Riflemen............

Still there's an even greater savings as we've got 6 cities on the main continent with barracks now which is an immediate 6 gpt savings, plus 9 cities and several more on the way which is 180+ shield savings and another 9+ gpt savings.

ANY WONDER THAT GIVES YOU A FREE IMPROVEMENT IN YOUR CITIES IS A GOOD THING TO HAVE.

Sun Tzu, the Pyramids, the Hoover Dam. We just might get two of those and who knows about the third one.

[Aggie]

It does give you a large advantage when you have granaries and barracks in each city, and with spices and incense we are able to grow pretty far, before problems occur.
Aggie

[adaMada]

Yea, Sun Tzu combined with the Pyramids will be very nice for city development... Ok, I'm decided. My vote goes to Sun Tzu.

-- adaMada

[jdd2007]

Sun Tzu

what did we rename our victorious unit btw? we should call Sun Tzu

[adaMada]

Good point... or rename it MWIA's Battalion, or Aggie's Command, or Ramses Brigade, or something appropriate. I hope we can still figure out which it is, though... :-\

-- adaMada

[Aggie]

If we decide to build the Art of war, where to build it.
I recall somebody suggesting in uber, and i think this would be an appropriate way to honor our previous SMC. Also uber is very defensable and could have it turn after next.
Aggie

[GhengisFarb™]

I just opened the save and I don't see a GL anywhere. Where is he?

[Aggie]

He's on the road between uber and geo. Are you using save 170ADend. Scared me for a second there.
Aggie

[Aro]

Here he is...