Suggestion For Making Marines More Useful

[Wormwood]

Originally posted by cgannon64


Will Firaxis make changes to ADM in PTW? I hope so, because several areas need changes.

ADM is nothing you can't change in the editor.

[cgannon64]

You're right, Wormwood, but for lazy people like me? I'd like them to change it!

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by cgannon64
You're right, Wormwood, but for lazy people like me? I'd like them to change it!

For a second I thought you were one of those Cannon purist players.

It's not that hard to edit.

[Martinus Magnificus]

I gave the marine an attack of 10 and defense of 8. Additionally, I gave the paratrooper a range of 8 (like I did with all modern air units) and an A/D of 8/10. This way, both units become usefull. I actually used many marines in my last game (huge earth map), since there were many 1 tile islands that had to be taken by marines.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by Martinus Magnificus
I gave the marine an attack of 10 and defense of 8. Additionally, I gave the paratrooper a range of 8 (like I did with all modern air units) and an A/D of 8/10. This way, both units become usefull. I actually used many marines in my last game (huge earth map), since there were many 1 tile islands that had to be taken by marines.

This could be labeled as a bug, but I found a way to stay in the game even if you're reduced to just one city.

I play Giga Arch maps with 80% water. I try to search for a small island. Sometimes, there are 1 tile islands, plant a city there. Now no matter what, the AI can't take it by force. Since no unit can amphib a city directly (unless this is a bug in my civ3 install).

[Wormwood]

Originally posted by Thrawn05


This could be labeled as a bug, but I found a way to stay in the game even if you're reduced to just one city.

I play Giga Arch maps with 80% water. I try to search for a small island. Sometimes, there are 1 tile islands, plant a city there. Now no matter what, the AI can't take it by force. Since no unit can amphib a city directly (unless this is a bug in my civ3 install).

I use those as ports for my fleet, and invasion platforms, since they are more or less impervious to attack. Now, people have stated that 1 tile islands are only possible in manually created maps, not in the randomly generated ones. How do you get 1 tile islands in those? Unless of course you create them yourself.

[Catt]

Originally posted by Thrawn05

Now no matter what, the AI can't take it by force. Since no unit can amphib a city directly (unless this is a bug in my civ3 install).

I think this is a bug in your install (or the AI simply refuses to attack your sole city for some reason). I attack cities directly with marines (it's all I use them for), and, after months of never seeing an AI amphib assault on a city but seeing reports of it from others, have witnessed several AI assaults directly on my coastal cities using marines under 1.29f.

Catt

[Gen.Dragolen]

Wormwood,

Marines have their uses: I send them to attack cities in the enemy rear areas where they are not as well defended.

Only problem is that they don't hold out very well with out an infantry unit or two and artillery support. Lost many a Marine to cavalry counter-attack after sacking a city. It seemsto me they should have a defensive strength of at least 8. After all, Infantry has a 10 defensive strength on the basis of machine guns and small mortars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the USMC and Soviet Navy's Marines use those too right ?

And yes, in PTW, it's going to be wild, even with Radar installations watching the coastlines, as we try to sneak invasion fleets to a percieved weak point on a buddy's coastline.

D.

[cgannon64]

Yes yes, radar is going to change some things. I wonder what defensive bonuses it will give? I can just picture an infantry foritified on a mountain with a fort and a radar nearby. The AI would lose its entire army trying to dislodge it!

Now I see where I was wrong. I don't play as many archipelago games as you guys do, so I don't see too many 1 tile islands.

Thrawn---I am a mix of purist and lazy. Certain things I WILL not change, but some I would be VERY willing to change.

[The Pioneer]

Originally posted by Thrawn05


No, the MI has the speed, cost, attack, defense, resources etc... as MA. It's just that SOME CIVS use MIs, and the rest MAs. THey are both the same unit in every way expect in Name and Animation.

What part of this don't you understand?

I do now!

So long...

[Wormwood]

Originally posted by Gen.Dragolen
Wormwood,

Marines have their uses: I send them to attack cities in the enemy rear areas where they are not as well defended.

Only problem is that they don't hold out very well with out an infantry unit or two and artillery support. Lost many a Marine to cavalry counter-attack after sacking a city. It seemsto me they should have a defensive strength of at least 8. After all, Infantry has a 10 defensive strength on the basis of machine guns and small mortars. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the USMC and Soviet Navy's Marines use those too right ?

And yes, in PTW, it's going to be wild, even with Radar installations watching the coastlines, as we try to sneak invasion fleets to a percieved weak point on a buddy's coastline.

D.

Hey, you're preaching to the converted here Marines are an important part of my modern military. In my mod, they are beefed up, and have the all-terrain as roads ability, and do not require oil, so they become a very viable unit in combat against undeveloped civs, and for flanking manuevers against enemny coastal cities. In my mod, tanks, MA, and MI are wheeled, so Marines become the unit of choice when an assault through rough terrain is required.

[cgannon64]

I'm thinking of modding my game so tanks, MAs, and MIs are wheeled. Just never got around to it, and I wonder how will it affect warfare.

[Wormwood]

Originally posted by cgannon64
I'm thinking of modding my game so tanks, MAs, and MIs are wheeled. Just never got around to it, and I wonder how will it affect warfare.

Well, wheeled units cannot travel though mountains or jungles unless there is a road there. What this means is that you can leave sections of your own territory like that unroaded, to create defensive, or to at least know that these are areas where tanks will not be able to pass through, allowing you to concentrate on defense elsewhere. In my mod I have this, and I have beefed up marines with the all terrain as roads ability, so there are instances where sending in tanks will be ineffective, jsut as in reality.

[cgannon64]

Very very very interesting defensive idea. So, you purposely leave jungles/hills/mountains unroaded, so the AI has to invade through certain zones? I would set up artillery and defensive units to turn these zones into "kill" zones.

This will make using this mod very interesting in MP, b/c either marines will become much more useful, or we can get the AIs point of view when walking into kill zones.

[vondrack]

Well, I have just had a very radical idea cross my mind... What about preventing all/certain/some (modern?) units from landing unless they land into a tile already occupied by a friendly unit (for at least one turn?)? Marines would then be useful for exactly the purpose they serve in the real world - establishing a beachhead.

I realize there would be several problems... and that it is not implementable in the current game context... well, just an idea...

[vmxa1]

Why do we need to make Marines more useful? They have a limited use now, do we need them to beat back MA/MI?

[Wormwood]

I've tried my best to mod my game so that every single unit can be a viable, important unit at some time. That's why I improve my Marines unit. That and I love amphibious warfare

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack
Well, I have just had a very radical idea cross my mind... What about preventing all/certain/some (modern?) units from landing unless they land into a tile already occupied by a friendly unit (for at least one turn?)? Marines would then be useful for exactly the purpose they serve in the real world - establishing a beachhead.

I realize there would be several problems... and that it is not implementable in the current game context... well, just an idea...

This is already the case. You just station units along your coast. Without marines, nothing can land.

Of course before the invention of amphibious warfare you can line your coast with workers and they can't do a thing to you. This an exploit but the inclusion of an ancient-world amphibous unit would be a good idea. Any suggestions for a name?
perhaps there should be marine warriors and marine archers (same as their land-lubber counterparts but at double cost) which come with map-making (which should be called ship-building but there you go. I guess Firaxis thought it stupid to have land-locked civs from discovering ship-building)

[vondrack]

Umm... yes, I should have worded my idea a bit differently, I guess. I know that Marines are the only unit able to carry seaborne attacks... What I suggested was to let only Marines (and maybe some other special units, like Explorer, e.g.) land, nobody else - even if the landing tile was not occupied by any enemy unit.

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack
Umm... yes, I should have worded my idea a bit differently, I guess. I know that Marines are the only unit able to carry seaborne attacks... What I suggested was to let only Marines (and maybe some other special units, like Explorer, e.g.) land, nobody else - even if the landing tile was not occupied by any enemy unit.

Yes I understood what you said but think it is a bit too harsh and unrealistic. I mean why can't you sail your galley up to an uninhabited island and let your warriors go ashore?

[vondrack]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
Yes I understood what you said but think it is a bit too harsh and unrealistic. I mean why can't you sail your galley up to an uninhabited island and let your warriors go ashore?

Good point. What about restricting landing into claimed (controlled) tiles only? Uninhabited islands (those outside anyone's territory) would still be landable even by warriors, while carrying out a seaborne invasion into an enemy controlled territory would require Marines or their counterparts in the given age...?

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack

Good point. What about restricting landing into claimed (controlled) tiles only? Uninhabited islands (those outside anyone's territory) would still be landable even by warriors, while carrying out a seaborne invasion into an enemy controlled territory would require Marines or their counterparts in the given age...?

This is getting better. But what about the viking landings in Britain, or the Battle of Hastings, or Roman occupation of Briton, or the battle of carthage? Under these rules that would be impossible.

If you don't put troops there to stop the invasion, then why is it any different to the uninhabited island? And if you DO put troops there then the rules work fine as they are (though possibly there is call for the opposite: an ancient age marine)

How does this sound though: landing should be resticted using the old Civ 2 ZOC rules. That way a defender could stop invasion with less than half the number of troops. Also artillery and air superiority units should auto-bombard approaching enemy ships.

I see what you are saying though. It's just too easy in civ to plonk huge armies down on the enemy beaches. However, this is mainly due to the speed of transports (and hence invulnarability to bombards) and due to civ3's total lack of resupply concept.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by TacticalGrace
I see what you are saying though. It's just too easy in civ to plonk huge armies down on the enemy beaches.

Exactly, landing seems too easy to me, especially in the later ages - just remember how difficult the D-Day was. I have no problem with warriors, swordsmen, and the like pouring out of galleys, but I simply feel that spitting MAs, MIs etc. ashore is somehow weird, especially when I usually land them onto mountain tiles... Your idea with ZOC sounds fine. Only Marines-like units might be allowed to ignore them... anyway, it was just a very rough idea...

[cgannon64]

Everyone always says Marines are important, because if you line your coast with workers, no one can land. But isn't lining your coasts with workers not very econmical? I think building a good defense is much cheaper than just lining the coasts with workers...who has honestly done that?

[TacticalGrace]

Originally posted by vondrack

Exactly, landing seems too easy to me, especially in the later ages - just remember how difficult the D-Day was. I have no problem with warriors, swordsmen, and the like pouring out of galleys, but I simply feel that spitting MAs, MIs etc. ashore is somehow weird, especially when I usually land them onto mountain tiles... Your idea with ZOC sounds fine. Only Marines-like units might be allowed to ignore them... anyway, it was just a very rough idea...

Making tanks wheeled will partially solve the landing on mountains problem. But only partially. If anybody has built a railroad on the mountain then I think the wheeled thing won't make any difference.

And you are right about Normandy invasions. Getting harbour facilities was essential before large-scale transfer of troops and heavy weapons could take place.

I know we can only dream, but the following rules would have been more realistic:
(1) No landings on mountains (except by marines?)
(2) Only one unit per turn may deploy onto a square without a harbour (need new terrain improvement buildable by workers). Does not apply to marines (?)
(3) Civ2-style ZOC applies to unloading ships. I think this should apply to marines as well.

[Felch]

I think any of these great ideas would be great for strengthening the underpowered Marines.