For Firaxis: How I Would Change The Difficulty Settings

[Inverse Icarus]

In short, I can't play deity in Civ3.

It's not that I can't DEAL with it, it's just that the AI cheats are so blatently obvious that the game no longer becomes fun. I would love to play a game with the diety levels of everything (corruption, unhappiness, etc), but with a monarch level (only cheating a little, not too noticeable) AI.

I suggest two choices for difficulty, game and AI.

Perhaps for civ4.

[Thrawn05]

That a good idea, but I don't think they would reply since you could edit it.

[vmxa1]

I do not find EMP or Deity fun. I play them for each patch and then go back to Monarch. Less of the annoying happiness crap. The happiness factor has always been aggrevating in Civ and Smac, I do not care for it, that is just me.

[Knightblade pDM]

I stay at Regent but only curiousity would make me move up on the difficulty ladder. The blatant AI cheating just keeps me from doing so

[Sovereign]

I tried to give the AI Reageant difficulty level, while selecting Deity level for the player in the Editor.


But, seriously, I always wanted to play a Chieftain level game with a Monarch - Deity skilled AI that actually gets into the Industrial or Modern ages by 1500 AD.

Most games I play on Chieftain because I don't like all my cities rioting early in the middle of a major expansion or army build up!

Also, I play that level for the "no bankruptcy" thing. Many times I build temples and cathedrals in EVERY city to keep the riots away in Reageant and higher, THEN all these temples and cathedrals create an negative cash flow.

THEN I gotta sell or scrap these temples and cathedrals to get out of bankruptcy. THEN riots start up again.


The circle repeats itself over and over ad-infinitum.



Sucks, doesn't it?

[jkelly]

I suggest two choices for difficulty, game and AI. Perhaps for civ4.

I'd like to see something like this as well. For quite a while now Emperor has been an almost-guaranteed win while Deity has been an almost-guaranteed loss. This makes the game less replayable. More flexible difficulties, like Uber's options, would add to my enjoyment of the game.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Sovereign

Also, I play that level for the "no bankruptcy" thing. Many times I build temples and cathedrals in EVERY city to keep the riots away in Reageant and higher, THEN all these temples and cathedrals create an negative cash flow.

THEN I gotta sell or scrap these temples and cathedrals to get out of bankruptcy. THEN riots start up again.

Two choices (not the only ones), build more mines and less irregation or select commerce trait. Of course the sliders can be use, but I am guessing you like them were you have them.

[Bamspeedy]

But, seriously, I always wanted to play a Chieftain level game with a Monarch - Deity skilled AI that actually gets into the Industrial or Modern ages by 1500 AD.

Just go in the editor and under the 'difficulty levels' tab and for Chieftain set all the AI rules to the same for what deity is (cost factor, # of starting units, and # of free units, AI to AI trade ratio, etc.). Or, give them the cheaper cost factor, but eliminate the free units they get at the start.

There is also another thing that affects the difficulty of the AI. Under 'general' settings tab, there is a 'default AI intelligence' box. It is set to Regent, so that means that no matter what level you play at, the AI plays by Regent rules for determinining how many of it's citizens are born content, combat bonuses vs barbarians, and results from goody huts (but not cost factor, or AI to AI trading). Set this to chieftain if you want a more difficult AI, and Deity if you want an easier AI.

[Theseus]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
There is also another thing that affects the difficulty of the AI. Under 'general' settings tab, there is a 'default AI intelligence' box. It is set to Regent, so that means that no matter what level you play at, the AI plays by Regent rules for determinining how many of it's citizens are born content, combat bonuses vs barbarians, and results from goody huts (but not cost factor, or AI to AI trading). Set this to chieftain if you want a more difficult AI, and Deity if you want an easier AI.

This is so damn counter-intuitive... I still do a double-take and have to think it through when I see it.

OK, best setting for a challenging, possibly killer AI civ is Chieftain, due to the factors stated.

I propose the AU Mod, with this"AI Difficulty" setting, played at Emperor, as the best balance.

[bigvic]

yeah, just play with the editor - easy

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Sovereign
I tried to give the AI Reageant difficulty level, while selecting Deity level for the player in the Editor.

Most games I play on Chieftain because I don't like all my cities rioting early in the middle of a major expansion or army build up!

Also, I play that level for the "no bankruptcy" thing. Many times I build temples and cathedrals in EVERY city to keep the riots away in Reageant and higher, THEN all these temples and cathedrals create an negative cash flow.

THEN I gotta sell or scrap these temples and cathedrals to get out of bankruptcy. THEN riots start up again.


The circle repeats itself over and over ad-infinitum.



Sucks, doesn't it?

Sovereign,

I am playing at Regent and I never have cash flow problems. How about sharing your standard build order and the usual time when when you change governments. My guess is your problem is not only with build order but also the timing of government changes. It could also be a problem with corruption. I love cathedrals, but usually do not build in all cities until about Sistine Chapel time.

When I first switched to Regent I had a horrible time in late Ancient Era with cash flow. The solution is to change build order and adjust timing of government changes. Definitely more fun than going back to Chieftain.


Oh, better yet, would be to post a game where you had cash flow problems, before you sell off temples and cathedrals. You should only have to sell conquered temples and cathedrals before you abandon a city. Never sell your own.

Looking forward to seeing a sample game.

-- PF

[alva]

Originally posted by Theseus


This is so damn counter-intuitive... I still do a double-take and have to think it through when I see it.

OK, best setting for a challenging, possibly killer AI civ is Chieftain, due to the factors stated.

I propose the AU Mod, with this"AI Difficulty" setting, played at Emperor, as the best balance.

hmm, not really, allthough at first this might seem logical, but:

If you set it on chieftain you are likely to get a very passive AI (builder), because it doesn't need anything.

If you set it on deity, It will need to look/fight for stuff I.E. luxuries,etc...

It seems strange, but it is true
I didn't discover this myself, it was mentioned by Soren in one of the killer AI threads IIRC

[Sovereign]

Planetfall,

I tend to bee-line towards Republic in Ancient Age, to get big science and trade boosts.

Here's what I tend to do in my games.


I do the Zerg rush, settlers and warriors all over a moderate sized area to plop down cities like the Zerg in StarCraft. I usually get like 15 - 20 cities by 1000 BC or so.

After I do the Zerg rush, around that time, I get Republic. I switch over to Republic, hoping to get more money via increased trade.

I build temples and cathedrals in every city to make everybody on "dope" or happy.

Then after that, I build libraries and marketplaces, and banks when I get Banking, in an attempt to increase science AND money income.


Then my problems begin.

My cash fails at this point. Sometimes I get like -50 to -100 debt!


I remember when I played some Chieftain games, I got upwards of -500 to even -1000 DEBT by Industrial or Modern Era!!!

I usually do more Zerg rushes to get like 20 or 30 extra cities for a total of 50. Then if there's any land or empty islands nearby, I do Zerg on them as well.



I'm used to Civ2, SMAC, and Civ: Call to Power tactics. I'm usually able to manage my treasury, but in Civ3 it's a hella lot harder for me.

I usually set my tax rate to 30% to 40%, while keeping Science at 30 - 60%, and dump the rest into luxuries, depending on government type, city sizes, and empire size.


That's pretty much what I tend to do. So I decide to go for Chieftain level, so I don't have to worry about losing my improvements or military due to debt and money shortages.

I'm able to pull out of debt and the - cash flow by Industrial Age in Chieftain, and probably Modern Age in Warlord and Reageant.

I gain maybe +1 or +2 gold a turn in Warlord and Reageant all the way to Modern Age, while trying to keep my science rate decent. So that's pratically a zero cash flow.

[planetfall]

Sovereign,

What is "Zerg rush"?

-- PF

[alva]

ahh, c'mmon , chieftain is to easy....
It's ok , if you're new to the game, but after spending alot of time here, you should go to regent at least

Maybe we need training days/games

@soeveraign: could you post a random/average save game of one of your games? around late middleage-early industrial. I want to see how you play the game in general and see if I/others can help.

note: I'm not making fun of any chieftain player here ok. Just Thought I'd make that clear

[vmxa1]

Zerg is a race in Starcraft that create lots of cheap units to swarm over an opponent. So it is an expression that mean I am rexxing like crazu or IOW making settlers to build cities.

[vmxa1]

Sovereign. I would expect to see that you are making too many tiles with irrigation. If you create mines every place a citizen is working a tile, you will not have money problems. Well you need a road as well. You would have to make an insane number of troops to go broke. I am not sure what the patches have done in terms of being broke, it used to be they would sell of structures. I seem to recall a change was made in that arena.
Of course you can not set research to 100%, but I would nver do that anyway. I am playing a monarch game and have never been in the hole money wise. Do not build useless structures such as walls. Wait to build items that will be used. Few harbors, no roads and mines in areas where no one is working.
I am on an island and only have contact with Rome and we are at war, so I do not have trade income either. Running 60% research and money in the bank.

[planetfall]

vmxal,
Thanks for the explanation. Never played Starcraft.

Sovereign,

Several serious problems with your strategy are wrecking civ3 for you.

Signs of serious problems

• Cash flow is regularly less than 30/turn
  
• In peace time, putting more than 10% into luxuries/happiness
  
• In wartime, putting more than 20% into luxuries/happiness
  

Suggested changes in play style:

1. Instead of Despotism-->Republic, try Despot for at least 1/2 to 2/3rd of ancient Era. Switch to Monarchy until build up infrastructure to support Republic.

2. Use F1 screen to see maintenance costs for each city and adjust production. It usually pays to review all your cities at least once per Era and see that city governor does not have food as too high a priority. Make sure your citizens are working most of high production tiles.

3. Don't automate your workers.

4. In early game make more mines than irrigation.

5. Only build 5 banks, so you can build Wall Street. More than that don't help until you have a citizen working as taxman instead of working a tile. {This is usually in Modern Era}.

6. Get more luxuries so marketplaces are more effective. Trade for them if don't own luxuries. Your goal should be at least 4 luxuries.

7. Also sounds like you are being clobbered by War Weariness. If going to fight all the time, never go to Republic or Democracy. Stay in Monarchy. If going Republic, keep wars shorter, i.e. 10-25 turns, pause for 5-10 turns.

8. Cathedrals should not be near top in build order unless edited effect of Cathedrals and regularly build Sistene. Marketplace is much better for happiness than cathedrals.

9. Don't rush too many military units.

10. Go to civfanatics and check out war academy and cracker's threads on maximizing production in early game. {ok, cracker is deep, but has great analysis}

11. Ask more questions when get stuck...

Enjoy.

--PF

[reefer addict]

i agree that deity isnt much fun, so what i did was to remove all the free units and support for the ai and change the build numbers to 7/10. this way the ai still has a big advantage but i dont get surrounded by ai cities before i can build a settler.

i have found that i still cant build any early wonders without a great leader but i can catch up and have a competitive end game.

i use the DyP mod and have flagged the civs to only build often defensive units, workers, air units and naval units and by the end game i have high tech neighbors with air and naval power but im not 20 techs behind.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by Sovereign
I usually set my tax rate to 30% to 40%, while keeping Science at 30 - 60%, and dump the rest into luxuries, depending on government type, city sizes, and empire size.

That may be part of the problem you're having. I play on Emperor (haven't tried Deity yet, I just started playing again), and just about every time I play I set the tax rate at 70%-100%. Of course there are some other factors involved. For instance, I tend to be a warmongerer and twist certain Civ's arms into giving me their Techs, while simultaneously land-grabbing and acquiring luxuries.

Now all of this also depends on the Civ's traits with which I'm playing. with the Americans this is how I always proceed, whereas I have a bit more aggressive playing style with someone like the Aztecs. On Emperor (and I imagine on Deity) it seems like it's an all-or-none approach. For me I never get the Tech lead until the early to mid Industrial Age, and with taxes set really high I can manage to buy those techs I don't gain in war. Just my $.02.

[vmxa1]

The cracker thread on flood plains will set you straight.

[vondrack]

OK, Sovereign, I am not a Civ3 pro like Vel, Theseus, Arrian, Zachariel, cracker, and their kin (sorry for any omissions, did not mean to offend anyone ). But I moved from Regent to Monarch successfully some time ago, which I guess might give my hints/remarks some credit...

Originally posted by Sovereign
I tend to bee-line towards Republic in Ancient Age, to get big science and trade boosts.

Actually, this is tricky... your trade will be better, that's correct, but trade is "only" good for generating money, which are in turn spent on... science and military. While science is what you WANT to spend your money on, your military will most likely be what you will HAVE TO spend them on. Remember you lose the "free" units available in Despotism and Monarchy. If you have like 15-20 cities, each one defended by something like two units plus some spare fast attackers... this will easily end up eating as much as 50+ gold per turn (while having absolutely NO impact on the happiness - there is no military police effect under Republic). The bigger your empire, the bigger the problem... to balance your cash flow while keeping your military, you need to cut science expenses... and you eventually end up with more trade, but less science. And science is what you care for, not trade!

Originally posted by Sovereign
I do the Zerg rush, settlers and warriors all over a moderate sized area to plop down cities like the Zerg in StarCraft. I usually get like 15 - 20 cities by 1000 BC or so.

After I do the Zerg rush, around that time, I get Republic. I switch over to Republic, hoping to get more money via increased trade.

See my previous note. Republic is not that great by itself, you need to meet certain conditions to actually make it worth while.

Originally posted by Sovereign
I build temples and cathedrals in every city to make everybody on "dope" or happy.

While I do the same with temples (to get at least those mean 10 culture points to get the full 21 tile city radius - which is something many will oppose, opting for libraries instead), I am MUCH more conservative with cathedrals. The basic rule of thumb you have to follow: if there is no unhappiness problem, do NOT build happiness improvements (this goes for the Colloseum, too). Build your happiness improvements only when you actually need them (i.e. you want your cities to grow, but they can't without running into unhappiness troubles).

Originally posted by Sovereign
Then after that, I build libraries and marketplaces, and banks when I get Banking, in an attempt to increase science AND money income.

This is perhaps the biggest problem of yours. You need to build Marketplaces PRIOR to switching to the Republic. They improve your income and help fight the unhappiness (if you have at least three luxuries, which you often do). I never switch to Republic before building Marketplaces in the majority of my cities (at least in all the core cities).

Originally posted by Sovereign
I usually do more Zerg rushes to get like 20 or 30 extra cities for a total of 50. Then if there's any land or empty islands nearby, I do Zerg on them as well.

The bigger does not necessarily mean better. It may be just my playing style, but I usually win my game having a smaller, but highly effective empire for the most part of the game, overrunning everyone else in the Industrial and early Modern ages. A great deal of Civ3 is about balance. Just maxing the number of your cities is not necessarily a good strategy - you need troops to protect them and they cost money. Unless your "core" cities are able to support the less developed ones with gold, your overgrown empire will be unable to fund itself.

Summary:
1) Build marketplaces before switching to Republic.
2) Build happiness improvements only when actually needed.
3) Do not Zerg that much, focus on making you empire a bit smaller, but more effective (do not worry about AI empires being larger than yours - they are facing the same kind of funding problems as you are now).
4) Let us know how it goes!
EDIT:
5) Do consider switching to Monarchy, especially if you are playing a Religious civ or waging a prolonged war. Monarchy removes the despotism penalties while maintaining or even improving most of its advantages, without introducing the cash related problems.
EDIT #2
6) I have realized this after reading Theseus' follow-up... I believe it deserves to be stressed. Keep all the worked tiles in your empire roaded! Even though roads are not the very highest priority of yours, make sure that once the higher priorites are met, you start roading!

[Theseus]

Good tips. I'd focus on roads, luxuries, marketplaces, and tech sales (and maybe a little... extortion!! ).

Sovereign, post a SAV.

[vmxa1]

vondrack, good point, but watch out for bigger is not better. By and large it is better. The one huge factor is that this is a zero sum game. That is, if I have more land, there is now less for you. Even if that land is not all that productive, it is not in my enemies hands. This is especially true once I get RR. I just spread out like a weed taken cities from them and that hurts them, even if that city does little for me and to a small degree hurts me (more corruption potential.

[vondrack]

Originally posted by vmxa1
vondrack, good point, but watch out for bigger is not better. By and large it is better. The one huge factor is that this is a zero sum game. That is, if I have more land, there is now less for you. Even if that land is not all that productive, it is not in my enemies hands. This is especially true once I get RR. I just spread out like a weed taken cities from them and that hurts them, even if that city does little for me and to a small degree hurts me (more corruption potential.

Yep, true. Actually, what I said was "the bigger does not necessarily mean better", which does not really interfere with what you say. If the land/cities I grab bring exactly 0 gold total to my treasure, then by all means, grab 'em before someone else does. But if they actually need to be funded from my treasury (by paying their garrison and improvement upkeep), then I should seriously consider if having them part of my empire is that great.

However, I do agree that once railroaded, I will expand as much as possible, 'cause by that time, my core cities are developed enough to support quite a couple of just land-grabbing, possibly heavily corrupted cities.