Pedrunn's Trade System

[Pedrunn]

I want to know what you guys think:

Trade System

here what i suggest:

Goods

They are pretty much the same as they usually are. Graphics in the map that you collect creating a city near them.
But i plan to make these goods depletable. As you harvest it it looses a certain amount that is defined in the beggining of the game when this amout reachs 0 it gets depleted.
How to know how much there is in a good reserve?
We could create Tile Improvements that show some values in the bottom of the good like:
1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 20-30, 30-50, 50+

Good Bonus
- All godds adds gold, food or prodution depending on its type. This is already implemented in mods through martin's code.
- Most of the goods will give an bonus in happiness in the best civ3 luxuries styles.
- Some goods will be necessary to create certain units, buildings and maybe wonders.

Selling Goods

The selling of the goods continues being managed by the trade screen. You choose a city to send it and sells the good. But here is where it starts the changes. Instead of creating a trade route a message pop up. Asking for how much gold do you want to sell every amount of the good and the maximum amount the buyer can actually buy. If the buyer accepts the offer a good of same kind as traded will show up next to the city wich was send with a label under the good (TI) written "Via Trade". And the amount of good as explained above.
This way the city who bought it will have the good bonuses including the building of certain units and building as explained. It can eve sell it to others players or send to another city of yours so that it gets the bonus (being careful since it will disappear after the certain amount reachs 0.

Buying Goods

This will be a bit harder and will have to be done through messageboxes.
Here how it works.
Select a city that belongs t you. Them find a city that has the good being harvested.
When clicking in a city that doesnt belong to you a message pop up telling wich goods are being harvested there. The player chooses one and the seller gives a certain gold value for it and a maximum number allowed to sell if he will accept to sell. The buyer them tell how much good amount he will want and them a good will be created in the city previouly selected.

goods

Here is a list i came up with 30 goods

Forest		Coal		Hard Wood	Bears
Plains		Horses		Elephants	Spices
Tundra		Bauxite		Oil		Caribou
Glacier		Diamond		Bauxite		Seals
Grassland	Horses		Cattle		Tobacco
Desert		Saltpeter	Oil		Dates
Swamp		Saltpeter	Oil		Alligator
Jungle		Saltpeter	Elephant	Sugar
Mountain	Iridium		Iron		Tea
Hill		Coal		Iron		Coffee
Brown Hill	Diamonds	Bauxite		Copper
Brown Mountain	Iridium 	Iron		Copper
White Hill	Bauxite		Oil		Rubies
White Mountain	Diamods 	Rubies		Iron 
				
Water Shallow	Shallow Fish	Crustaceous	Pearls
Water Deep	Deep Fish	Whales		ShellFish
Water Volcano	Deep Fish	Whales		Diamonds
Water Beach	Shallow Fish	Crustaceous	Pearls
Water shelf	Deep Fish	Whales		Oil
Water Rift	Deep Fish	Whales		Oil
Water Kelp	Shallow Fish	Crustaceous	Pearls
Water Reef	Shallow Fish	Crustaceous	Pearls

Obs there still can be chose 1 for each terrain.

Good 		Source

Coal		GoodMod
Hard Wood	CTP2
Bears		CTP2
Horses		CIV3
Elephants	CTP2
Spices		CTP2
Bauxite		GoodMod
Oil		CTP2
Caribou		CTP2
Diamond		CTP2
Seals		GoodMod
Cattle		CTP1 cattle unit
Tobacco		CTP2
Saltpeter	CIV3
Dates		GoodMod
Alligator	CTP2
Sugar		CTP
Iridium		???
Iron		GoodMod
Tea		CTP2
Coffee		CTP2
Copper		GoodMod
Rubies		CTP2
Fish		GoodMod
Crustaceous	CTP2 Crabs
Pearls		CTP2
Whales		CTP2
ShellFishs	CTP2 giant squid

Other Features to think about:

- Stored Food - If a city has growth at the maximum value (10.000) will be created a food good (probably the best graphic is the goodmod rice) wich can be traded and protects a city from starvation or may boost the food in a city or terrain.

- Colonies - With this system colonies will be Tile improvements that sends a good to its owner the nearest city. The colonies can be created by units with the order create colony or could be places as regular imps. The lavel "Via Colony" Can be added.

- Pirating - Instead of pirating trade routes you have to pirate goods. A pirated good has some amounts of it sent to the nearest city. The lavel "Via Piracy" Can be added.

Forget all about trade routes they have to be dropped because i cant control when they broke.

[centrifuge]

Great ideas, Pedrunn!! I espescially like the one about the depletion of the trade goods. Do you plan to implement similar to Civ3? It seems like forever since I've played Civ3 , so I may be wrong, but IIRC when a good becomes depleted, a new source becomes available somewhere else on the map within a turn or two.

Anyway, you've been modding like crazy lately, and we are all going to reap the benefits, so thank you...

Keep up the good work

-C-

[centrifuge]

Oh yes, and I'm still looking forward to strategic resources

[ahenobarb]

Very Amibitious, Pedrunn. I like the ideas a lot!

On top of what you proprose, I would like to add the concept of "finished goods". A city that is receiving cotton for instance, could build a textile mill through which a new good "linen" would be produced. Or tobacco to cigars, iron to cars, etc. the secondary or finished goods would have more value than the original good.

[Locutus]

I don't have any time but here's a list of historically pretty important trade goods that are still missing:

Salt
Jade
Silk
Rice
Cotton
Uranium
Gold
Silver
Rubber
Tungsten
Grapes
Hemp
Dye

[child of Thor]

Sounds very good pedrunn - this kind of thing coupled with any work on the strategic resources idea's will make huge(and better!)changes to the game. The depleation idea is excellent - there is no such thing as an eternal resource(although solar power et all come close ).

[Pedrunn]

Nice to see you guys liked. I was afraid i was going too radical. Specially because with this feature the city will be surrounded by a dozen of goods wich may look a bit odd yet really cool.

Finished goods, This is possible and is really a good idea but comes the graphic problem. I will try to do the code first. If everything works out we can try this.

Locutus. I left a empty space for every terrain for this mainly. I wanted to hear some thoughts from the community. So can be easily added new goods without having to create new terrains.

Salt, nice point i believe the best is for beach and desert terrains

Silk and Cotton, those are related and i want my system to include the most number of goods of earh it can thats why i renamed crabs to crustaceous and giat squid to shellfishs. So we can add the silk (although i think odd to drop a original good) to the system. But i could say the animal also give the same as silk when comes to bonus (as fur). So i guess just cotton (maybe renamed for something else to include others plants that give silk) is fine.

Rice, I did not incleded because i was thinkin in the food feature i suggested. But it can be included and as a see renaming it for cereal wich means it will include the 5 types of cereal in the world that are the basis of human alimentation.
Note: i cant remember wich the other three other than rice and wheat are type of foods classified as cereal. And i am getting curious

Uranium, funny this should have been included for nukes I guesss i got things mixed up with Iridium. It will be in.

Gold and Silver, I thougt that those goods were better off specially gold since the monetary currency of the game is gold.

Tungsten, This is a nice good.

Grapes, nice one but i was thinking more in a Fruits goods from the nordicus civ3 reources. What you think?

Hemp, Other than to make paper (wich i believe can be done by others world resources) and smoke wich are the real benefits. While creating the list of goods i really considered rename tobacco for Drugs to make it more general but i thought it did not looked good but the Drugs good would be nice.

Dye, this is in the front in the list of the luxury-like goods to be added

Rubber, that can be added but i am afraid we will have to add a new terrain to jungles. This type of terain is far the one with most number of possible goods.

Jade, is this really that important? I considered create a jewlry good and create a new sprite with graphics of the rubies, diamonds, emeralds, saphires and jade squeezed together. What you think?

[Caranorn]

Hemp's main use would of course be ropes (and medicinal

But what's seriously missing is copper and tin. Alternatively bronze (which is composed of those two metals). These two were probably among teh most important ancient resources and once again became very important after the renaissance (early firearms etc.).

Marc aka Caran...

P.S.: Horses is something I wanted to see implemented for a while now, bloody nuisance that anyone can build cavalry and any number too. Though a realistic system would be very hard to create.

[Pedrunn]

Still ropes can be done with many materials. I still dont see whay implementing Hemp.

copper is already in. For gameplay better have just copper as a bronze prerequisite so tin is out.

[Caranorn]

Must have missed copper, is fine then.

As to hemp, it was what made the great navies (rope and sails were almost exclusively hemp) move, but I agree, it's not all that important. Which reminds me, how about tar? Or make oil a requisite for somethings that used tar in the earlier ages.

Marc aka Caran...

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Locutus. I left a empty space for every terrain for this mainly. I wanted to hear some thoughts from the community. So can be easily added new goods without having to create new terrains.

I figured that, hence my post

Silk and Cotton, those are related and i want my system to include the most number of goods of earh it can thats why i renamed crabs to crustaceous and giat squid to shellfishs.

Cotton and Silk are quite different. Cotton comes from a plant, Silk from an animal. Cotton has been used since the beginning of time to produce everyday clothing (it's cheap and durable, but not particularly strong), Silk has always been a luxury (it's very expensive and also VERY strong - one of the strongest materials on earth, the Mongols and later other Asians used it as armour). Silk was one of the major trading goods of pre-colonial time ('Silk Road' anyone?), Cotton was one of the major trading goods of from colonial times onwards. So although both are used as material for clothing, they are very different (just as Copper and Iron are different, even though there both metals and mainly used for tools and weapons). Cotton *is* quite similar to Flax, Linen, Wool (although Wool too comes from animals), etc, so I would agree that it's not a good idea to have all of these included as well.

Edit: an additional difference is that Silk is a product (originally) exclusive to China, whereas Cotton and similar products can be found pretty much all over the world.

Rice, I did not incleded because i was thinkin in the food feature i suggested. But it can be included and as a see renaming it for cereal wich means it will include the 5 types of cereal in the world that are the basis of human alimentation.
Note: i cant remember wich the other three other than rice and wheat are type of foods classified as cereal. And i am getting curious

5 types of cereal grains? :confuse: I can name 6: rice, wheat, maize, barley, rye, oats. I guess generalizing all of these as one type of trade good makes sense...

Gold and Silver, I thougt that those goods were better off specially gold since the monetary currency of the game is gold.

They're amongst the most important trade goods in human history, why?? Who cares if gold is also the term for currency? That doesn't take anything away from it's importance as a trade good in human history...

Grapes, nice one but i was thinking more in a Fruits goods from the nordicus civ3 reources. What you think?

The difference between Grapes and Apples or Banana's or whatever is that Wine is made from it, that IMHO makes it worthy of a seperate trade good...

Hemp, Other than to make paper (wich i believe can be done by others world resources) and smoke wich are the real benefits. While creating the list of goods i really considered rename tobacco for Drugs to make it more general but i thought it did not looked good but the Drugs good would be nice.

Ah, the usual stereotype: hemp == pot. Hemp has always been a MAYOR resource with far more uses than just as a drug: it's used for ropes, clothing, paper, food, paint, construction (it's stronger than steel but more workable than wood!), fuel, medicin, etc. If overly paranoid governments hadn't declared it illegal, it would dominate the marketplace today...

Rubber, that can be added but i am afraid we will have to add a new terrain to jungles. This type of terain is far the one with most number of possible goods.

True, Jungle is a very diverse type of terrain but you still have one slot free and Saltpeter is already present in several other terrain types (and it makes to no sense to have Saltpeter in Jungle: it's usually found in dry places such as deserts and mountains (Arabia, not in humid places like Jungle)...

Jade, is this really that important?

YES! Jade was to the Far East Asians (primarily Chinese) and pre-Columbian Americans (Maya, Aztec, Inca) what Gold is to us Westerners: the most precious, enchanting and valuable material around. We had our colonial conquests in the 16th/17th century and our Gold Rushes in the 19th century, the Chinese and Americans both had a similar obsession with Jade. It's just another gem to us, but it's been a VERY important material for numerous other civilizations.

[Martin Gühmann]

Originally posted by Locutus
Jade, is this really that important? I considered create a jewlry good and create a new sprite with graphics of the rubies, diamonds, emeralds, saphires and jade squeezed together. What you think?

So you mean you can event currency based on Jade. Nice one. Just wonder if I should put them together or have the techs jade currency and gold currency, but then I should have silver currency, too. So it should be just one currency tech there.

-Martin

[Locutus]

Although Jade had the same 'enchanting' effect as Gold, it was AFAIK never actually used as currency (probably because it's much rarer). Metals (gold and silver but many others as well: bronze, tin, copper, nickel, etc) are by far the most common form of currency. If you are looking for an alternative form of currency, I would suggest Salt. It was used a form of currency for a long time throughout Eurasia (but mostly Europe and the Near East) and Africa - and it is in fact still in use as currency in some parts of Africa today (not as an official national currency of course).

Jade was initially used for tools and weapons and such because of it's hardness (like metals) - and was later, as people assigned more value and significance to it, only used for jewelry and ornaments and such, like (among others) the pre-Columbian Americans and Egyptians did with gold. But unless I'm very much mistaken, it never served as currency.

[ahenobarb]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Finished goods, This is possible and is really a good idea but comes the graphic problem. I will try to do the code first. If everything works out we can try this.

If you can do the other things you want, this should be nothing more than a speed bump for you. I have faith in your abilities!

[SMIFFGIG]

Woohoo Civ3 style trade goods at last, and all the other extra stuff Pedrunn is planning on implementing making it a better system than Civ3's if it all works.

Just a quick note, i think that in CtP2. The amount of gold displayed in top right should be renamed tresury, because 1. not all of a civilizations money would be gold but jade etc 2. Some Civs didnt even have gold 3. Modern day currency is not stored in just gold but Platimum too if im correct and im sure there are other points against it too.



P.S (Pedrunn) Will resources run out and re-appear
Will there be luxury and strategic resources eg Civ3
Will you need to build roads to get a specific resources
Will colonies be used the same as in Civ3 only with extra ability to build them offshore and instead of needing a road having to build a port in the colony (only thing available to build in a colony


I think all of the above should be included + what Locutus said

Good Luck !

[SMIFFGIG]

I didnt see Camels in the list...... Camels where very important, they where the equivilent to what horses where to Western civilzations (and others) .

However there is no camel units, perhaps some of the camel units from AoE2 could be converted


My Possible new units thread
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...37#post1277713

[Pedrunn]

Just a quick note, i think that in CtP2. The amount of gold displayed in top right should be renamed tresury

we just need to find the correct line in the ldl_str.txt

P.S (Pedrunn) Will resources run out and re-appear

Sure.

Will there be luxury and strategic resources eg Civ3

You can give any bonus you for every good harvested. And happiness is the easiest to implement.

Will you need to build roads to get a specific resources

No! I dont think the road needing can be implement.

Will colonies be used the same as in Civ3 only with extra ability to build them offshore and instead of needing a road having to build a port in the colony (only thing available to build in a colony

The harvesting of the good by a colony is something to discuss.
We could use a unit with the harvesting ability.
But we could use TI as suggested. If TI it can only be possible if a unit is around or if is in the players border

I think all of the above should be included + what Locutus said

I will re-plan the goods distribuction considering what have been said.

Report.
I have already possible the creation of a specific good in the city closest tile when a good is traded. Next step. Make the game find a good place for the good placement in the city radius using a variation of the CityX code.

[Locutus]

When you're making additions/changes to that list, you may wish to consider the following list as well. They're not quite as important as the ones I mentioned earlier, but you still have room for more goods so these could be useful to fill in the blanks where needed. You probably don't have room for all of these but I'll leave it up to you to decide which ones are the most useful. I tried to roughly list them in order of importance, so if 2 goods seem equally fitting to you, take the one higher up in the list

Beavers/Furs (replace Bears?)
Tin/(Bronze)
Poppies/Opium/Incense
Camels
Glass
Lithium (a 'future' good)
Clay/Ceramics
Porcelain/Ceramics (Clay and Porcelain could be seperate, but you could also use a generalized Ceramics instead)
Potatoes
Olives
Lead (or other metals)
Marble
Fruit
Papyrus
Lama
Beer
Amber

Yes, these were all 'stolen' from the Good Possibilities thread...

[Pedrunn]

Thats just too many goods. Thats why i want to make one generic good for the goods istead of making one really specific yet important one. Therefor goods like fish (instead of tuna, salmon and other ones), crustaceous (instead of crabs and lobsters), cereal grains (instead of rice, wheat) and some other thoughts like gems (instead of rubies, emeralds, jade...), fruits (instead of grapes, banana, apple, etc..), unstable athoms (instead of lithium, uranium), drugs (intead of oppium, tobacco), fossile fuels (instead of coal and oil).
Although we have sprites and tgas for all these goods. Since we have a limit of four per terrain and i dont wnat to add any other type of terrain if not special ones.
Not to mention i want to cover as many worldwide possible goods as i can. So it has to be a generic system.
I will do the code with my generalization idea even if unpleases lot of people (although i cn understand these people). But once the code is done we can think on new additions. After all we could keep dicussing here for ages about this.

I have your post in The good possibilities printed since last week and it was the basis of my good distribution. Of course i did made some changes and if you notice i just made the strategic resources more avaible in a larger number of terrains type.

Hey, just a curiosity. Is diamond classified as gem?

PS:

hemp == pot.

Why two '='? I wonder if you start counting from zero

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Pedrunn
Thats just too many goods.

Yes, I said that, the last batch is to fill in the blanks where more goods are still needed. Now you have more choice, that can't be bad

Thats why i want to make one generic good for the goods istead of making one really specific yet important one. Therefor goods like fish (instead of tuna, salmon and other ones), crustaceous (instead of crabs and lobsters), cereal grains (instead of rice, wheat) and some other thoughts like gems (instead of rubies, emeralds, jade...), fruits (instead of grapes, banana, apple, etc..), unstable athoms (instead of lithium, uranium), drugs (intead of oppium, tobacco), fossile fuels (instead of coal and oil).

I basically agree with this but you shouldn't go too far. Emeralds and Rubies can be merged, but Jade should remain seperate. Grapes deserve a seperate mention: Fruit is just for food consumption but Grapes are an important basis for alcoholic beverages as well - Olives can be used for oil, so you might want to consider a seperate entry here as well, if there's room. 'Unstable atoms' or 'fossile fuel' is just silly IMHO, far too generic. I agree on Fruit, Gem, Fish, Grain/Cereal (the more often I read it, the more I like the term 'Cereal'), Crustaceous though, with the changes I mentioned.

Is diamond classified as gem?

Yes, it's far more Gem-like than Jade

I wonder if you start counting from zero

You mean there are people who don't?

[Immortal Wombat]

*raises hand*

[The Big Mc]

pedrun I was in the middle of converting civ3 goods to ctp so I can send you the cut out civ 3 goods with a little work in psp you could get them working.

[Pedrunn]

Where is it ?!?

I havent started the good creation and this will much of a help!!!

[The Big Mc]

back home on a flopy for you

[The Big Mc]

pedrun got the pics for you

[Pedrunn]

Thanks a lot! this will save me a lot of tif conversion work.

[The Big Mc]

just send me the spr files when you are done.

[Pedrunn]

But i wont do all though

[The Big Mc]

ok

[Daftpanzer]

I like the idea of 'finished goods'. Would it be possible to have something like the resouce system in imperialism1/2? For anyone who hasnt played those games, its where things cost specific resoucres instead of abstract industry 'shields'. If you have the resources and money you get things built straight away.

I am guessing that it is porbably impossible, but it would be cool if e.g a battleship cost you a certain amount of steel and fuel (but less assembly time), so you have to have some in stock before you can build it (you get resoucres within your borders added to your stockpile every turn, more if you build mines etc. on the sources)

Also for the battleship you need some of your cities converting coal and iron ore into steel and crude oil into fuel (or theres a screen were you can allocate so much industry to convertion of certain raw goods in maunfactured goods, like the allocation of PW)...

Or you could make cigars from tobacco to sell to people who dont have acces to tobacco or dont have the industry to make cigars etc etc