Calling all Canadians...how would you fix our military?

Kontiki · September 20, 2002, 13:35

I don't think there's much debate over the fact that our military is in sad shape right now (and has been for a while). I'm curious what other Canadians think is the best way to fix it. Let's try to be realistic - saying disbanding it, upping it to 1 million strong or buying a fleet of stealth fighters is just not an option.

Personally, here's a few things I'd like to see (in no particular order):

1. Increase the budget by about $1-2 billion.

2. Scrap our armoured regiment altogether. We are not likely to ever deploy it, and even if we did, Leopard I tanks from the 70s ain't exactly top of the line. We could probably sell most of the equipment to some third-world rat-hole.

3. Develop a lightly armed, but well equiped, rapid reaction force or two that can be moved to trouble spots on short notice - say 1000-2000 men each. Here, I'd invest in some good APCs (Coyotes are a good start, but they're meant more for recon duties) and upgrade our light truck fleet (we've got to have the most pathetic jeeps in the world).

4. Increase the full-time personnel to around 80,000.

5. Keep the navy as up-to-date as possible, but stop buying used British subs.

6. Keep our CF-18s in better condition so that they can be effectively used alongside our allies if and when needed.

Just a few ideas, certainly not exhaustive. Also waiting for the smart-ass remarks from Americans like "you mean Canada actually has a military?"

DinoDoc · September 20, 2002, 13:37

Out source it to the Americans.

Dom Pedro II · September 20, 2002, 13:38

Add an extra star on the U.S. flag.

Kontiki · September 20, 2002, 15:45

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Out source it to the Americans.

As in rent military services from the US?

General Ludd · September 20, 2002, 16:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Kontiki
Let's try to be realistic - saying disbanding it ... is just not an option.

Well, there goes my suggestion.

Velociryx · September 20, 2002, 16:07

Sure....why not. You said yourself that you don't really need a military, so why not go whole hog? We've got more than we need, and you guys could rent our services for cheaper than you could maintain your own.

-=Vel=-

Kontiki · September 20, 2002, 17:42

Quote:

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sure....why not. You said yourself that you don't really need a military, so why not go whole hog? We've got more than we need, and you guys could rent our services for cheaper than you could maintain your own.

-=Vel=-

When did I say we didn't need a military?

Velociryx · September 20, 2002, 17:48

d'oh....my bad....was remembering something in another thread, 'bout how canada only had one border, and with a peaceful neighbor at that....

But seriously....why not? A 'national guard' type of reserve force for emergencies and outsource the rest? Be a good way to save some dough.

-=Vel=-

DinoDoc · September 20, 2002, 17:53

You'd have to decide what you wanted the military to serve before deciding how to fix it.

Praising your peacekeeping commitments while slashing the budget of the military to the bone doesn't cut it.

Switch · September 20, 2002, 18:15

Do we really need a bigger military? Perhaps we should just take a small step and stop cutting the budget, instead of upping it.

Just my two cents (which isn't much, considering my nationality).

Kontiki · September 20, 2002, 18:22

Quote:

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You'd have to decide what you wanted the military to serve before deciding how to fix it.

Praising your peacekeeping commitments while slashing the budget of the military to the bone doesn't cut it.

I completely agree with that. Realistically, our military is going to be used for exactly the same things it always has been since the end of the Cold War - namely, peacekeeping, limited contributions to offensive operations undertaken by our allies (eg: Kosovo, Afghanistan), and some measure of homeland defence (generally, maritime patrol and disaster relief). One of the biggest problems we have, as far as I'm concerned, is that we are still equiped (poorly) to do what our Cold War role was. Canada's primary mandates in case of war with the Soviet Union were anti-submarine warfare in the Atlantic and a land force to be used to help defend northern Europe. To some degree, we've scaled back on these but not enough, IMO.

That's why I suggested forming well-equiped rapid reaction units to be used for peacekeeping and those limited offensive contributions. I also advocated INCREASING the military budget, not slashing it to the bone (as has already been done).

Asher · September 20, 2002, 18:24

Just ditch the military, we've got chickenshit leadership anyway so no point having a military that sits around doing stupid political missions.

Shadowstrike · September 20, 2002, 18:28

Annexation by the US. Or declare neutrality.Or set up a nuclear arsenal, then update military with new equipment, better wages & living conditions, nd a heap of cash. Should Quebec feel the need to secede, I doubt they'll need the equalization payments. (joking)

CapitanGarlic · September 20, 2002, 18:29

Mounties. Lots of them. No one will suspect a thing.

Lonestar · September 20, 2002, 19:39

Just Let America "Protect" Canada. Of Course, the Best way to "Protect" Canada is to establish large numbers of Garrisions up and down the country.

St Leo · September 20, 2002, 20:29

1. Halve the budget.
2. Use it for UN missions exclusively.
3. Cooperate as little as possible with the Evil Empire Jr.

private hudson · September 20, 2002, 20:40

Well I'm no canadian, but you could always do what we brits do and get the Gurkhas to fight for you! I swear as soon as anyone hears they are on their way they surrender soon afterwards!

Oh and don't disband you know damn well mr Bush is itching to just add some more stars to that flag!

Tuberski · September 20, 2002, 20:49

Quote:

Originally posted by private hudson
Oh and don't disband you know damn well mr Bush is itching to just add some more stars to that flag!

They wouldn't have to worry about that, except during the hockey season.

Hockey players from Canada would become terrorists, and Canada would become a rogue state.

Gatekeeper · September 20, 2002, 21:11

It seems like I remember some years ago something going around about British Columbia wanting to possibly one day join the United States. Either BC or some other western province(s). I'm serious, too. Obviously, nothing ever came of it ... but I just thought I'd mention it to see if anyone else had heard of it.

Gatekeeper

private hudson · September 20, 2002, 21:23

Hmmm haven't heard that one before. It suprises me really I always thought Canada and the USA kinda hated eachother secretly, after all they did try and take canada in the 1812 war!

Besides wouldn't all those frenchies in Montreal object if america wanted canada?

Mr. President · September 20, 2002, 21:28

Really? I was under the impression we have better relations than some, since we could almost be the same country in some ways (open borders, &c.)

As for the question, I don't really know how Canada sees its military situation, so I couldn't comment with any authority.

Tuberski · September 20, 2002, 22:01

Quote:

Originally posted by private hudson
Hmmm haven't heard that one before. It suprises me really I always thought Canada and the USA kinda hated eachother secretly, after all they did try and take canada in the 1812 war!

Besides wouldn't all those frenchies in Montreal object if america wanted canada?

Except the frenchies of course.

Gatekeeper · September 20, 2002, 22:17

I predict that, one day, the United States of North America will come into existence. What I don't know is if it would be a complete union, or just an economic one — sort of like NAFTA — or a military one or what. It will be composed of at least the current US and Canada, and maybe even Mexico.

Then we shall truly be the Beast of the Americas! (And they thought the Beast was bad now.)

Gatekeeper

Velociryx · September 20, 2002, 22:40

Would love to see it, GK....further, I'd love to see a Transatlantic Economic Union....perhaps not long after a NA econounion.

Imagine....an economy worth 22+ TRILLION a year.....wow.

-=Vel=-

Tingkai · September 20, 2002, 22:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Kontiki
1. Increase the budget by about $1-2 billion.

Where do you get the money?

Quote:

Originally posted by Kontiki
2. Scrap our armoured regiment altogether. We are not likely to ever deploy it, and even if we did, Leopard I tanks from the 70s ain't exactly top of the line.

Valid point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kontiki
3. Develop a lightly armed, but well equiped, rapid reaction force or two that can be moved to trouble spots on short notice - say 1000-2000 men each. Here, I'd invest in some good APCs (Coyotes are a good start, but they're meant more for recon duties) and upgrade our light truck fleet (we've got to have the most pathetic jeeps in the world).

The Canadian Army is already fairly mobile and has a plan to become more agile.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kontiki
4. Increase the full-time personnel to around 80,000.

At least 80,000. Our peacekeeping commitments probably require a larger force with more people in the army.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kontiki
6. Keep our CF-18s in better condition so that they can be effectively used alongside our allies if and when needed.

The CF-18s are being upgraded through a $900 million modification program that will keep them airworthy until 2017.

The question is: do we really need the fighters?

We need to increase the size of the primary reserves.

Kontiki · September 20, 2002, 22:52

Quote:

Originally posted by Tingkai

Where do you get the money?

...

The question is: do we really need the fighters?

$1-$2 billion from our budget isn't that much - hell, currently our surplus is bigger than that. However, I'm sure you could fanangle that much from other areas without having too major an impact.

As for the fighters, I'd say that we definitely need them. If we ever want to contribute an offensive force, the fighters are the best thing we've got.

KrazyHorse · September 20, 2002, 23:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
I predict that, one day, the United States of North America will come into existence. What I don't know is if it would be a complete union, or just an economic one — sort of like NAFTA — or a military one or what. It will be composed of at least the current US and Canada, and maybe even Mexico.

Then we shall truly be the Beast of the Americas! (And they thought the Beast was bad now.)

Gatekeeper

No chance, buddy. I'd consider joining a massive Western Bloc...but only after the Euros had already joined to provide a counterweight.

Gatekeeper · September 20, 2002, 23:27

Pah. Stop being such a party-pooper, you future American you, Froggums.

Gatekeeper

(P.S. And, Vel, a trans-Atlantic union would be something indeed ... but I don't think that'll happen in our lifetimes.)

KrazyHorse · September 20, 2002, 23:29

We're already too close to the elephant. We like you at arm's length, not stomping on our head.

Gatekeeper · September 20, 2002, 23:37

Oh, for goodness sakes, you Canuck you! You're just being stubborn, that's all. Like some Americans I know!

Gatekeeper