Israel civ

[Panag]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Hmm. I think you're probably right, as long as they have a high agression level.

hi ,



it should be put "neutral" at the slider

have a nice day

[sabrewolf]

no, not neutral. agression level 5. it reflects the situation more adequatly. agressive towards others, but also neighbors feel agressive against israel. that's also why germany has level 5.

talking about agression level: why the hell has france got 1? obviously firaxis forgot the napoleonistic france

[Panag]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
no, not neutral. agression level 5. it reflects the situation more adequatly. agressive towards others, but also neighbors feel agressive against israel. that's also why germany has level 5.

talking about agression level: why the hell has france got 1? obviously firaxis forgot the napoleonistic france

hi ,

it does not reflect the situation more adequatly

we are not aggresive toward others

have a nice day

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I would not put agression at 5, and definitely not at 3. The modern state of Israel resembles 19th century America: it pursues a moralistic but ultimately violent series of campaigns against native peoples, sees itself as having a manifest destiny, and is unafraid to take on other nations, even traditionally "stronger" ones. On the other hand, it has no publicly stated intend to DESTROY any other countries. Therefore, 4 is the correct aggression level.

[sabrewolf]

i could live with that

btw: in 24-civ scenarios i put agression level of everyone to 5 because otherwise i'm the only one allying and fighting (makes it difficult to rebuild the army after every single bigger enemy)

[Az]

what's the agression level for the arabs, btw?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Azazel
what's the agression level for the arabs, btw?

heh heh heh heh...

Of course, I'd also rank that as very high, for most games. In terms of modern arab governments, I'd rank Syria a 4 perhaps, and Iraq as well... the others, however, I'd leave at 2... as they've learned their lesson by now.

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by Azazel
what's the agression level for the arabs, btw?

good question

in history it has varied between 2 and 5. at the golden age (represented in the game), i'd say 4. alltough the arabs expanded very far, it wasn't in just a brutal way, but also in a "honourable" way. codecs of honour, spread culture, etc.

yep, i think 3 or more likely 4 is ok.

[Az]

medieval honour is exaggerated. One could say that the crusaders pillaged Constantinople i an honourable way.

[Gilad]

The Jewish (/Hebrew/Israel) people are among the oldest of the many peoples known to history. Their origins date back at least 3,000 years (about as long as China), and perhaps even further. During this lengthy period Jews have settled in all parts of the world and have had an impact on many civilizations. The Jewish religion, Judaism, has exerted influence far beyond its own adherents. Christianity grew out of Judaism, and Islam accepted many of the traditions and practices of Judaism. Knowledge of the history of the Jews and their culture contributes to a fuller understanding of the history of the Western world and its spiritual life.
About ancient Egypt, it does not exist as the same ancient empire it was, Muslim Arab invaders conquered Egypt in ad 641, and Egypt has been a part of the Muslim and Arab worlds ever since .
Encyclopedia Encarta

[Panag]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I would not put agression at 5, and definitely not at 3. The modern state of Israel resembles 19th century America: it pursues a moralistic but ultimately violent series of campaigns against native peoples, sees itself as having a manifest destiny, and is unafraid to take on other nations, even traditionally "stronger" ones. On the other hand, it has no publicly stated intend to DESTROY any other countries. Therefore, 4 is the correct aggression level.

hi ,

yeah right




as a nation we only defend ourselfs only when its needed , often we dont defend ourselfs in order to give any reason for an escalation , ......

in the US people take an oath ; "to defend against all enemies , foreign and domestic" , .......

you cant compare actions against terrorist with anything what you wrote , ......

not to mention the fact that since Israel is the only democrazy in the entire ME , .....

and there lays another key problem ; refugees or deportees from other countries that we take inside start to have certain views that are a danger against the democrazy they live in , the democrazy that is really crazy , for under our laws its extremely difficult to kick these people back where they came from , .......

people that are often jailed or on the run in arab countries in the ME because of the extreme views they have , .......

and why should we be afraid to take on others , even stronger , ..... as long as they leave us in peace we leave them alone ,......

now , can we keep this thread on topic please and post only items that are related about Israel and civilization , the game ..... thanks

some input regarding the last lines from the Israeli posters is more then welcome (!)

have a nice day

[Az]

Hello, Gilad.

good to see more Israelis in apolyton. Hope you'll stay.

[sabrewolf]

but you're forgetting the fact that israel has fought several wars in the last 50 years, more than any other nation in the world except the US.

if it's israel's fault or the fault of the arab neighbors, british, american or whoever else doesn't change much. are nation which is permanently fighting (and this is happeing in the modern "civilised" days) can't be completely innocent.

don't get me wrong. i'm not against israel and even less against jews. i'm just against the ultra-orthodox and fascistic people.... who unfortunatly have waaaay too much influence... that's why there's no peace.

Gilad,
welcome to this thread
if a civilisation conqueres another, they might spread (or enforce) language, culture and religion. but the people otherwise are the same.
yes, the ancient egyptian culture disapeared around that time, but the ancient egyptians still are the fathers and mothers of the arab egyptian.
only if there was a massive ethnic cleansing and genocide (as in north and south america or the mongols, etc.) the original culture get's destroyed together with most of the people.

[Panag]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
but you're forgetting the fact that israel has fought several wars in the last 50 years, more than any other nation in the world except the US.

if it's israel's fault or the fault of the arab neighbors, british, american or whoever else doesn't change much. are nation which is permanently fighting (and this is happeing in the modern "civilised" days) can't be completely innocent.

don't get me wrong. i'm not against israel and even less against jews. i'm just against the ultra-orthodox and fascistic people.... who unfortunatly have waaaay too much influence... that's why there's no peace.

Gilad,
welcome to this thread
if a civilisation conqueres another, they might spread (or enforce) language, culture and religion. but the people otherwise are the same.
yes, the ancient egyptian culture disapeared around that time, but the ancient egyptians still are the fathers and mothers of the arab egyptian.
only if there was a massive ethnic cleansing and genocide (as in north and south america or the mongols, etc.) the original culture get's destroyed together with most of the people.

hi ,

ahem , we can count our wars on a couple of hands , ..... today there are 43 wars and conflicts been fought around the world , about half of them has nations involved that could not count the wars they had on two dozen hands , .......

Israel is not an agressive nation , if it would have been it would have kept the Sinai until this day amongs many other things , .....

we have never enforced our culture or way of living on others , ....... neither have we ever destroyed any culture from others , ......

have a nice day

[High_Lord]

far out, this thread is huge now

[Silpy]

There usally is some trouth to a stereotype (But not allways). If you find any stats, you will find that on average students of the Jewish faith ware more likley to go to University, Further Education, the arts or busness. Dont know why. Hey! Is there anybody of the Jewish faith here? Does you religion place high prestege on education?

Oh, and if you work it out, Jews, Christians and Muslims have been praying to the same god. Just different ways. Makes you think, doesnt it?

[Silpy]

Really, there is some truth to some stereotypes.

Germans are effeciant workers
British are allways stuck in the past.
Americans are idealistic.
Russians are heavy drinkers.

These are the only ones that I can think that are most widely accepted (with sizeable exeptions, of cource)

[Az]

Hey! Is there anybody of the Jewish faith here? Does you religion place high prestege on education

NOTE: I am an atheist jew.

Our religion doesn't.
Our culture does.

[Silpy]

Thankyou.

Just like Methadist upbringing (I am also a atheist) still gets me thinking 'papist claptrap' everytime I see a Crusifix or those Insesce swinging things. You can NEVER EVER get away from your upbringing. You can try, but you will fail.

(PS Mean no offence to all you RC's out there)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by panag
now , can we keep this thread on topic please and post only items that are related about Israel and civilization , the game ..... thanks

My post WAS about Civ. It was about an Israeli Civ's agression level. If you don't want to hear it, that's one thing, but don't dismiss it as "off topic".

Sure, Israel never attacks unless attacked first, but it's reaction to bombings is off the hook, in my opinion, very similar to the reaction of the US Army to "indian atrocities" during the 19th century... one Palestinian blows himself up, and maybe kills a few people, and their families house is destroyed, and many cities are put under a 24-hour curfew?

Maybe that's not insane: maybe that's defense. After all, the best defense is a good offense. But the occupation of Lebanon, the 6-day war, numerous Israeli military actions have TAKEN land in the name of defense.
When, other than Lebanon and the Golan Heights, have the Israelis retreated from occupied land?

I think 3 is too low an agression level for Civ, if the Israel Civ is meant to represent the Israel of the modern world and of David. If it's supposed to represent Jews in general - which I think would be a mistake and generally arrogant - then I would choose a much lower agression level.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Regarding an earlier post about racial stereotyping: first of all, it's OT, a sin 'round these parts, and secondly, what?!? OK, Russians are heavy drinkers. But there are many other cultures.

Americans are idealistic?!? Some of them are, but many of them are crass and materialistic! Some of them are deeply religious, and others are total cynics!

Let's keep racial stereotyping around here to a minimum. ESPECIALLY on this thread! Yeesh!

(if you want make amusing claims, like the Irish hide little pots of gold everywhere, or the Japanese all carry katanas around with them and know how to use throwing stars, that's fine with me.)

[Panag]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


My post WAS about Civ. It was about an Israeli Civ's agression level. If you don't want to hear it, that's one thing, but don't dismiss it as "off topic".

Sure, Israel never attacks unless attacked first, but it's reaction to bombings is off the hook, in my opinion, very similar to the reaction of the US Army to "indian atrocities" during the 19th century... one Palestinian blows himself up, and maybe kills a few people, and their families house is destroyed, and many cities are put under a 24-hour curfew?

Maybe that's not insane: maybe that's defense. After all, the best defense is a good offense. But the occupation of Lebanon, the 6-day war, numerous Israeli military actions have TAKEN land in the name of defense.
When, other than Lebanon and the Golan Heights, have the Israelis retreated from occupied land?

I think 3 is too low an agression level for Civ, if the Israel Civ is meant to represent the Israel of the modern world and of David. If it's supposed to represent Jews in general - which I think would be a mistake and generally arrogant - then I would choose a much lower agression level.

hi ,

talking about facts , the GOLAN is Israeli territory , ........ that remained occupied by others for a long period but it is Israeli territory , .....

and three is just to high , .... we have never attacked a nation for more land or our views like the germans , .....

we have only acted in selfdefense , .....so therefore three is to high , ....

have a nice day

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I think you have a skewed view of Israel's history. Why is the Golan Israel's territory?

"We have only acted in selfdefense" sounds a DAMN lot like the Germans during WWII and the Americans these days.

I'm not saying that Israel isn't surrounded by enemies... I'm not saying that Israel is doesn't have the right to defend itself...

But COME ON. Israel has routinely defied international standards of human rights in its conduct of its "perpetual war for perpetual peace" as Gore Vidal would have it.

Israel has yet to conquer entire other states, but let us not forget, the road to genocide is paved with good intentions, and just as the western half of America was seized under a BS pretext by James Polk, Jordan and Syria may one day be Israel's, as Jacobitzsky would have had it...

Have a nice day.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
I think you have a skewed view of Israel's history. Why is the Golan Israel's territory?

"We have only acted in selfdefense" sounds a DAMN lot like the Germans during WWII and the Americans these days.

I'm not saying that Israel isn't surrounded by enemies... I'm not saying that Israel is doesn't have the right to defend itself...

But COME ON. Israel has routinely defied international standards of human rights in its conduct of its "perpetual war for perpetual peace" as Gore Vidal would have it.

Israel has yet to conquer entire other states, but let us not forget, the road to genocide is paved with good intentions, and just as the western half of America was seized under a BS pretext by James Polk, Jordan and Syria may one day be Israel's, as Jacobitzsky would have had it...

Have a nice day.

hi ,

get your facts strait , .....

and keep this on topic instead of getting israel true the mud , that is OT , .....

and before you use the word "genocide" think before you post such stuff , ....

have a nice day

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Panag, you are just saying "get your facts straight" and "don't insult Israel" repeatedly without citing any facts or making any arguments yourself!!!

I am dragging Israel through the mud because I've READ a lot about it, and I read about it EVERY DAY! I will happy to drag a variety of countries through the mud, not just Israel!

I am one of the strongest advocates for including Israel in Civ, and NOT because I want to fight them every time... I'd like to play as them and emulate their tremendous military campaigns!!!

Are you DENYING that they launched such campaigns? If so, might I recommend you do some reading?

If you want something pro-Israeli, try "A History of Israel From the Rise of Zionism To Our Time". It is considered a seminal history of modern Israel, and is unabashedly pro-Israeli.

I want Israel in Civ very, very much, and I think the State of Israel has both a glorious and a highly tainted past. I see America, my home country, in the same way.

Have a nice day.

[Panag]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Panag, you are just saying "get your facts straight" and "don't insult Israel" repeatedly without citing any facts or making any arguments yourself!!!

I am dragging Israel through the mud because I've READ a lot about it, and I read about it EVERY DAY! I will happy to drag a variety of countries through the mud, not just Israel!

I am one of the strongest advocates for including Israel in Civ, and NOT because I want to fight them every time... I'd like to play as them and emulate their tremendous military campaigns!!!

Are you DENYING that they launched such campaigns? If so, might I recommend you do some reading?

If you want something pro-Israeli, try "A History of Israel From the Rise of Zionism To Our Time". It is considered a seminal history of modern Israel, and is unabashedly pro-Israeli.

I want Israel in Civ very, very much, and I think the State of Israel has both a glorious and a highly tainted past. I see America, my home country, in the same way.

Have a nice day.

hi ,

if you read a lot that is something differently then living true it , ......

not to mention the fact that you seem to read only things from one side , nine out of ten writen by people who dont know the word "objective" , .... this is not the thread to go in detail about what goes on in the ME and Israel this is a thread about having Israel as a civ in a game , ........

so keep this on topic instead of dragging Israel true the mud , .....

have a nice day

[sabrewolf]

Yahweh, there's no sence in trying to convince fundamentalists (see his avatar and you'll know why i say so) of another opinion.

fundamentalists - no matter if jew, christian, muslim or hindu, no matter if feminist, male chauvenist; no matter if racist, nationalist, fascist, stalinist, anarchist - will never change a bit from their position and have only one point of view and don't even admit that the other side might have a point.

broad minded people will consider both sides, but some only see black and white...

it's sad, but that's life

to come back on topic:
i think this thread has everything important said:

- a close majority thinks israel should be included as one of the next 7 civs
- UU should be the merkhava (instead of modern armour).
- alternative UU (probably not so seriously meant): a slingshot man or a prophet
- traits: religious and one of following: militaristic or scientific.
- agression level: 4
- main leader: ?
- cities & great leaders: see the civ3 extrapack by wernezuma

anything else?
if no, this thread could end soon....

[Panag]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
Yahweh, there's no sence in trying to convince fundamentalists (see his avatar and you'll know why i say so) of another opinion.

fundamentalists - no matter if jew, christian, muslim or hindu, no matter if feminist, male chauvenist; no matter if racist, nationalist, fascist, stalinist, anarchist - will never change a bit from their position and have only one point of view and don't even admit that the other side might have a point.

broad minded people will consider both sides, but some only see black and white...

it's sad, but that's life

to come back on topic:
i think this thread has everything important said:

- a close majority thinks israel should be included as one of the next 7 civs
- UU should be the merkhava (instead of modern armour).
- alternative UU (probably not so seriously meant): a slingshot man or a prophet
- traits: religious and one of following: militaristic or scientific.
- agression level: 4
- main leader: ?
- cities & great leaders: see the civ3 extrapack by wernezuma

anything else?
if no, this thread could end soon....

hi ,

the avatar has nothing to do with being a fundamentalist or not , ..... and that is a personal insult , ....

this is a game thread , not a thread inwhere insults are made or comments about peoples avatars , ......

have a nice day

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by sabrewolf
this thread could end soon....

This thread will only end when Firaxis commits, by God...

[sabrewolf]

Originally posted by panag
hi ,

the avatar has nothing to do with being a fundamentalist or not , ..... and that is a personal insult , ....

this is a game thread , not a thread inwhere insults are made or comments about peoples avatars , ......

have a nice day

having a picture of someone who triggered the death of nearly 3000 people, of which about 800 were jews and over 2000 were arabs (2nd intifada started when he walked over a for muslims sacred area) is to me a clear sign that you support his politics and his actions.
and hearing your doubtless support of the dark chapters of your country (every country has those) shows me that you have an unmovable and unpenetratable onesided opinion.

i'm not insulting you and i'm not doubting that you as a person are ok, but i'm stating what seems evident. i'm not using any rude words, not calling you a racist or anything like that.

but you obviously consider my different opinion as an insult against your person. sorry if you think so - it's not meant like that...