Israel civ

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Look, Abdul-Aziz, I dislike the modern state of Israel very much, on a personal level. But are you really going to tell me that one of the many animist religions of Africa or elsewhere has had as much eventual impact on the world as Judiasm, the font of Christianity and Islam?

I had overlooked the Netherland's agricultural development, which is important indeed. Still, there are too many European powers in the game as it stands. Perhaps the Celts or Scandanavians can be taken out and Belgium or the Netherlands put in.

[ThePlagueRat]

Taking away Scandinavians? That's just crazy...
Did you know we were a leading European power until the Black Plague came in 1349 ? The wobbling death came by lices in rats fur. Hence the nick.

Why Vikings are civilized:
The UU (A Berserk) used to drink a mix of musherooms brewed upon píss before combat. Then they entered a psychedelic frenzy of violence. Hence the 4.2.1 value. Except from that, our ancestors were quite homesick and loved parties and fun, they did poetry and had developed an own Alphabet called Futhark(runes) which scribes and poets used, they had many religious ceremonies, including the burning a ship containing a dead body upon the water as Ceremonial Burial. Magick and myths were part of the daily life, and they managed to create a monarchies and nations. They even had the fastest and most weather sustainable naval unit during the Ancient age.
Some Apolytoners suggested the Civ3 UU should be this naval unit. - A longship.

Playing during the ancient age, it could unbalance the game on pangea maps. The longship wouldn't sink on ocean tiles while the other bad-boats would. Thus making a scandinavian expansion much easier. (the naval system in civ3 just stinks anyway, too few and lousy boats as it is)

[Abdul-Aziz]

Yes, theplaguerat, I think Scandinavians were important... As for Celts, however, I don't know... Probably they are less important than Netherlands, but more than Israel.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I would hate to take away ANY civ from this game, and PlagueRat, your points about the scandanavians are well taken. I wouldn't want to take away the Celts, either.

Still, though, the Hsung-Nu are not included, the Ayrans are not included, the Hitties are not included, the Berbers are not included, and they all had about as much effect on the world as the Scandanavians and Celts. And I am Irish/Scottish/Welsh/English/Russian, so I should be quite happy to have the Celts and other Northern Europeans in the game.

But Israel or the Netherlands? PLEASE!!! Israel or the celts? COME ON!!! The whole point of the celts throughout history was raiding and animism! That's it! They didn't build any lasting cities or having a centralized nation-state. They didn't do squat except raid, raid, raid! They're worth of inclusion, but they didn't give birth to God as (most of us) know Him!

OY VEY!

[ThePlagueRat]

Netherlands is a bit older than Israel. I vaguely recall Israel was founded in 1946, and Netherlands in 1500-and something.

In fact it was the introduction of christianity and continental culture who challenged and outplayed the ancient Viking culture.
Thus, the three independent Scandinavian nations became great medieval powers in the catholic Europe. It lasted until that blackdeath. And it wasn't the rats fault. They just carried the lices. The humans got wobbly black spots and died...

They arose once more to become an 'alliance' of North European superpowers centuries later during the reneissance...
So If Israel should be included instead of Scandinavia,
why not include Vietnam instead of America?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

PlagueRat, I didn't say that Israel should be included INSTEAD of Scandanavia. I said that it should be included as WELL.

I did make the stipulation that Israel, and I refer to the Judea and Samartia of old as well as modern-day Israel, are more important than the Netherlands.

And I think Vietnam would make a great addition to Civ. Think of the wars you could fight with France and America!

[ThePlagueRat]

Oh yeah...

We should have Judea, Samaria, Lebanon, Vietnam as well as the NL. Think about all the UU's: huge Goliaths and stuff, and even the VietCong!
(a dig in capability giving a huge defense bonus in terrain)

[sabrewolf]

actually i wanted to desubscribe from this thread (otherwise i'm tempted to write things off topic). but i just can't do it

if jews/israel/hebrew should be in the game or not can be seen from various aspects, which civ3 uses:

regional or temporal domination (history and power), culture (science and religion), geography, ethnicity and some other aspects. and then of course personal opinion.

considering an israeli civilisation:

personal opinions:
specially under the current situation in the middle east, one let's the personal opinion have a big influence. fundamentalists on each side are doubtlessly conviced, that israel should be in or not.

regional or temporal domination:
in no time of history, the hebrew were a dominant kingdom in a big area. their area of reign was fairly small and their military influence on the region wasn't ever really worth mentioning.
==> israel doesn't deserve a place in the game

culture (science and religion):
while the scientific influence is minor, the religious aspect is major. judaism is the root of the three of the largest monotheistic religions. we in the western world live our whole life around the "rest on the seventh day"-principle (christians begin their week on monday, so they rest on sunday; the jewish obviously begins sunday and ends on saturday, sabath).
==> the hebrew/jews MUST have a place in the game

geography:
playing with historically accurate civs makes sence having historically accurate starting positions. a lot of people like using the world map. but this region is just overcrowded (babylon, egypt, arabs, ottomans, greek, romans, persians, carthagians). OTOH, europe is also overcrowded
==> no space for israel in the game
first should come inca, polynesian, inuit, ethiopean, nigeria, etc.

ethnicity:
the only semitic ethnic civ are the arabs. so the hebrew should be in too...
otoh, the russians are the only slavic group... and look at the area of the slavs (going from east europe all the way to the most east end of asia)...
==> the hebrew/jews could have a place in the game


i use an amalgam of these aspects. and looking objectivly at everything, i think the hebrew civ deserves a spot as one of the next 8 civs. world maps will suck even more, but that's life...

i disagree about an ISRAEL civ. the ancient israel was a kingdom with nothing great about it. the modern israel is an artificial state created after the west thought the jews should have a place of their own.
i disagree about a JEWish civ. because religion doesn't make a civilisation.
that's why i think the new civ should be the HEBREW.

and because the greatest time of this civ was some 2000-4000 years ago, the golden age should be then too ==> an ancient UU.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I don't agree with all your points, Sabrewolf, but I do think you just came up with the best compromise I've heard on this thread.

As for people with the world map: pshaw! Play a middle east map instead!

[Abdul-Aziz]

It is however just strange how all these pro-Israel rants started only for PtW, not for Civ3. Probably because Jews are so jealious that Arabs got included and they didn't? :-) Well, Arabs done certainly much more than Jews in history, if somene would not agree with that he would be a bigot...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
It is however just strange how all these pro-Israel rants started only for PtW, not for Civ3. Probably because Jews are so jealious that Arabs got included and they didn't? :-) Well, Arabs done certainly much more than Jews in history, if somene would not agree with that he would be a bigot...

HEY... Discuss the topic, not your biased opinion on why there is a discussion. And just because people disagree with you doesn't make them a bigot...

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

No one is denying the greatness of the Arabs, Abdul-Aziz. Why deny the genesis of Islam, though? Do Muslims, Christians and Jews worship different gods?

NO!!!

Read the Koran! The book of recitations! Muhammed and Jesus both recognized the God of the Jews!

That ALONE should determine the inclusion of Israel/the Hebrews into a future civ game!

If you don't like the Israelis, or think that Judaism is heretical, you can at least appreciate its HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE. That is the whole POINT of Civ, IMO.

Later.

[Ming]

Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
It is however just strange how all these pro-Israel rants started only for PtW, not for Civ3. Probably because Jews are so jealious that Arabs got included and they didn't? :-) Well, Arabs done certainly much more than Jews in history, if somene would not agree with that he would be a bigot...

HEY... Discuss the topic, not your biased opinion on why there is a discussion. And just because people disagree with you doesn't make them a bigot...

[Abdul-Aziz]

Yahweh, I did OBVIOUSLY read Koran. Both Jesus and Muhamad are recognised prophets. And Muhamad is Messiah, not God, Allah is, and He is the God of all countries and people - including Jews, Eskimos and Hottebots - just not everybody believes into Him. But it is their own problem. And if they does not right thing, like believes in their Judaism, it is not good the same as it is not good if someone kills or steals. If Civilization is just about significance, when why there are no Hitler or Stalin? If people doesn't believes in Allah, He will render their deeds null and they will have no protector! This is bad for them and, of course, it is their own problem, but still it is nothing good and definitely NOT a reason to put them in.

Read now this excerpt from the Holy Quo'ran, Muhamad surrah, probably it will help you to find the True Path also:

[47.1] (As for) those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, He shall render their works ineffective.
[47.2] And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.
[47.3] That is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, and have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.
[47.4] So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
[47.5] He will guide them and improve their condition.
[47.6] And cause them to enter the garden which He has made known to them.
[47.7] O you who believe ! if you help (the cause of) Allah, He will help you and make firm your feet.
[47.8] And (as for) those who disbelieve, for them is destruction and He has made their deeds ineffective.
[47.9] That is because they hated what Allah revealed, so He rendered their deeds null.
[47.10] Have they not then journeyed in the land and seen how was the end of those before them: Allah brought down destruction upon them, and the unbelievers shall have the like of it.
[47.11] That is because Allah is the Protector of those who believe, and because the unbelievers shall have no protector for them.
[47.12] Surely Allah will make those who believe and do good enter gardens beneath which rivers flow; and those who disbelieve enjoy themselves and eat as the beasts eat, and the fire is their abode.
[47.13] And how many a town which was far more powerful than the town of yours which has driven you out: We destroyed them so there was no helper for them.
[47.14] What! is he who has a clear argument from his Lord like him to whom the evil of his work is made fairseeming: and they follow their low desires.
[47.15] A parable of the garden which those guarding (against evil) are promised: Therein are rivers of water that does not alter, and rivers of milk the taste whereof does not change, and rivers of drink delicious to those who drink, and rivers of honey clarified and for them therein are all fruits and protection from their Lord. (Are these) like those who abide in the fire and who are made to drink boiling water so it rends their bowels asunder.
[47.16] And there are those of them who seek to listen to you, until when they go forth from you, they say to those who have been given the knowledge: What was it that he said just now? These are they upon whose hearts Allah has set a seal and they follow their low desires.
[47.17] And (as for) those who follow the right direction, He increases them in guidance and gives them their guarding (against evil).
[47.18] Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?
[47.19] So know that there is no god but Allah, and, ask protection for your fault and for the believing men and the believing women; and Allah knows the place of your returning and the place of your abiding.
[47.20] And those who believe say: Why has not a chapter been revealed? But when a decisive chapter is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein you see those in whose hearts is a disease look to you with the look of one fainting because of death. Woe to them then!
[47.21] Obedience and a gentle word (was proper); but when the affair becomes settled, then if they remain true to Allah it would certainly be better for them.
[47.22] But if you held command, you were sure to make mischief in the land and cut off the ties of kinship!
[47.23] Those it is whom Allah has cursed so He has made them deaf and blinded their eyes.
[47.24] Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Nay, on the hearts there are locks.
[47.25] Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the Shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.
[47.26] That is because they say to those who hate what Allah has revealed: We will obey you in some of the affairs; and Allah knows their secrets.
[47.27] But how will it be when the angels cause them to die smiting their backs.
[47.28] That is because they follow what is displeasing to Allah and are averse to His pleasure, therefore He has made null their deeds.
[47.29] Or do those in whose hearts is a disease think that Allah will not bring forth their spite?
[47.30] And if We please We would have made you know them so that you would certainly have recognized them by their marks and most certainly you can recognize them by the intent of (their) speech; and Allah knows your deeds.
[47.31] And most certainly We will try you until We have known those among you who exert themselves hard, and the patient, and made your case manifest.
[47.32] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way and oppose the Apostle after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.
[47.33] O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle, and do not make your deeds of no effect.
[47.34] Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.
[47.35] And be not slack so as to cry for peace and you have the upper hand, and Allah is with you, and He will not bring your deeds to naught.
[47.36] The life of this world is only idle sport and play, and if you believe and guard (against evil) He will give you your rewards, and will not ask of you your possessions.
[47.37] If He should ask you for it and urge you, you will be niggardly, and He will bring forth your malice.
[47.38] Behold! you are those who are called upon to spend in Allah's way, but among you are those who are niggardly, and whoever is niggardly is niggardly against his own soul; and Allah is Self-sufficient and you have need (of Him), and if you turn back He will bring in your place another people, then they will not be like you.

[Ming]

And needless to say, this is also NOT the forum for heavy religious debate. So enough. If you can't discuss this topic without current events or religious disagreement working it's way into your posts... don't post. Because if you do, I will just restrict you.

It's that simple.

[ThePlagueRat]

Civ3 was very political correct. Perhaps too much. Some realism got lost and stupid faces were included. I think the reason was that no one should become offended by the game concept and it could be played around the whole world. But why are you discussing religion here, when the moderator told us all to stick to the topic?

Europa Universalis is not using this political correctness concept. There are slaves, colonization, and the religious conflicts, so the REAL history as close to as it can be made, is the subject to replay. And you can play many different smaller nations if you like to. e.g. Holland, Mamelukes, Vietnam or even Norway.
I like to play the small ones and build up...

Civ3 it's not like that, and we gotta live with it or play another game. Don't you agree?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Abdul-Aziz, I do believe that Hitler should have been chosen for the Germans, and that he was not because of good marketing reason.

I am not a Nazi sympathizer and I do not support Hitler, nor I am an anti-semite or a raving pro-Israeli. I believe that the Civs in the game should be chosen due to their significance in history.

And with that, I leave this thread forever! Good luck to all of you who revel in ignorance, a sin in Judaism and Islam both!

[Panag]

Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
Panag, Yahweh Sabaoth:

Belgium did much, it had big size with colonies (Zaire/Congo) and was one of colonial powers of 19th century.

Brunei - you probably don't know history of it. In fact, Kingdom of Bruinei before British came had conquered much of Indochina and Indonesian isles.

Golden Horde - was later than Mongols and it was already much different

Netherlands - important not only toda, always important. They firstly done the conception that to have better economy you have not to have bigger fields, but instead make them more efficient. Also, they were a big empire and Amsterdam was European trade center for centuries.

As for Israel being the start of Judaism, well ,it is, but it is the only state practicising it actually. So we than could add all the African animist states just because they practicises religions they've created. Islam and Christianity is already very different from Judaism btw.

Ottok, you said the truth.
Bweren, thanks for support :-)

hi ,

if you call going out and just "grabbing" land colonization , ..... they did absolutely nothing , .....

""As for Israel being the start of Judaism, well ,it is, but it is the only state practicising it actually. So we than could add all the African animist states just because they practicises religions they've created. Islam and Christianity is already very different from Judaism btw ""

*cough* please get some facts before you post such stuff , .....

have a nice day

[Panag]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Oh yeah...

We should have Judea, Samaria, Lebanon, Vietnam as well as the NL. Think about all the UU's: huge Goliaths and stuff, and even the VietCong!
(a dig in capability giving a huge defense bonus in terrain)

hi ,

, .... maybe we could have "indo - china" on the list , ..... laos , cambodia and vietnam combined in one civ , ....

have a nice day

[Abdul-Aziz]

So, land grabbers did nothing significant in your opinion, Israel is however also very aggressive landgrabbing state, it grabbed so much lands (1948 Palestine, Gaza Strip, West Bank, Golan Heights, Sha'aba Farms, once whole Lebanon and for even more time South Lebanon, two times whole Sinai peninsula...).

And what facts do I need? Judaism is followed by just one small country and only half of it. Same as with certain "bigger" African religions.

Indochina would be the same ignorant as if we would add "Israel-Lebanon-Jordan-Syria" civ. Siam could probably be added, since it was one of a few non-European states never colonized or partly-colonized. Khmers could be a worthy option also.

I've read your profile and seen that you admit being zionist and also that you want to free world from terrorism... Yet you advocate all Israeli terrorism in your posts. Or is the "zionist liberation" aimed at killing "all other terrorists" not seeking terrorists between the "God's chosen nation"?

Have a nice day...

[Ming]

Originally posted by Abdul-Aziz
I've read your profile and seen that you admit being zionist and also that you want to free world from terrorism... Yet you advocate all Israeli terrorism in your posts. Or is the "zionist liberation" aimed at killing "all other terrorists" not seeking terrorists between the "God's chosen nation"?

Have a nice day...

What part of my last posts do you NOT UNDERSTAND!

You are restricted for three days...

Have a nice day...

[ThePlagueRat]

Actually the Viet -something was an old mighty kingdom in the reneissance. In the EU2 you can actually play them. Perhaps they have events too? Check the out, if you got that game...

I think there are too few modern era UUs in Civ3.
We should have the VietCong (6.10.1 + no_terrain_penalty)
And Israel can have the the Merkava Mk3 tank (16.10.2 + self_destruction_capability). I friend of mine in the UN (NorBatt)said that certain Israeli tanks had self-destruction capabilities, I dunno if it is the Merkava. Perhaps it was supposed to be a secret? Ooops...

And Finland should have the good old Alpine unit from Civ2 as UU in Civ3. With a white camo of course, and not the stupid yellow one.

[Panag]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Actually the Viet -something was an old mighty kingdom in the reneissance. In the EU2 you can actually play them. Perhaps they have events too? Check the out, if you got that game...

I think there are too few modern era UUs in Civ3.
We should have the VietCong (6.10.1 + no_terrain_penalty)
And Israel can have the the Merkava Mk3 tank (16.10.2 + self_destruction_capability). I friend of mine in the UN (NorBatt)said that certain Israeli tanks had self-destruction capabilities, I dunno if it is the Merkava. Perhaps it was supposed to be a secret? Ooops...

And Finland should have the good old Alpine unit from Civ2 as UU in Civ3. With a white camo of course, and not the stupid yellow one.

hi ,

, .....

, we should get the Merkava IV , but huh , what do you mean with the self-destruct ability , .......

since few civ's have modern day UU's we should get a couple modern ones in the game , ......

here is some outdated info on the Merkava III ;

MERKAVA MK 3 BAZ MAIN BATTLE TANK, ISRAEL
The Merkava is the main battle tank in service with the Israeli armed forces. The first Merkava Mk 1 tanks were supplied to the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) in 1979. Production of the Mk 1 continued up to 1983, when the IDF began to receive the Merkava Mk 2. The Mk 2 featured improved mobility, fire control system and armour, as well as the inclusion of an internal 60mm mortar. Production of Mk 2 continued until 1990 when it was superseded by the Mk 3.

The Merkava Mk 3 Baz entered service with the IDF at the beginning of 1990. The main features of the Merkava Mk 3 are a new suspension system, a 1,200hp engine and new transmission, a higher power main gun, and particularly new armour protection. Ballistic protection is provided by special armour modules, which are attached to the tank by bolts. These are easily replaced whenever better ballistic technology is introduced. About 1,200 Merkava Mk 2 and Mk 3 tanks are in service with the IDF.

The Merkava Mk 4 entered full production in 2001 and will be in service with the Israel Defence Forces by 2004. Improvements include; new 120mm gun, new modular ballistic armour and new fire control system developed by El-Op.

ARMAMENT

The main gun is a 120mm smoothbore gun developed by Israeli Military Industries. The gun has a Vidco Industries thermal sleeve, which increases accuracy by preventing distortion through the effects of weather, heat and shock. The tank carries an ammunition store of 50 rounds of 120mm ammunition. The tank is also equipped with three 7.62mm machine guns, two roof mounted and one co-axial with the main gun. The tank carries a store of 10,000 rounds of 7.62mm ammunition.

The 60mm mortar system, which is a large calibre gun with a low muzzle velocity, is capable of firing high explosive rounds and illumination bombs. The crew can load, aim and fire the mortar system from within the turret. The mortar system is developed by Soltam Limited of Haifa.

TURRET

Hydraulic systems can be susceptible to impact damage and cause a fire hazard so the electro-hydraulic turret control system installed on the Mk 1 and 2 has been replaced by a totally electrical and electronic system in the Merkava Mk 3 for increased survivability and safety. Either the gunner or the commander operates the turret control system.

The crew is protected against nuclear, chemical and biological warfare by a high positive pressure system with air conditioning and filtration.

PROTECTION

The tank's is fitted with the Amcoram LWS-2 laser warning system, with threat warning display installed at the commander's station.

The turret and the hull are fitted with a modular armour system which can be changed in the field. The forward section of the turret is fitted with additional blocks of armour which provide extra protection against the latest generation of top attack anti-tank missiles.

A skirt of chains with ball weights is installed on the lower half of the turret bustle. Incoming HEAT projectiles detonate on impact with the chains instead of penetrating the turret ring. Sprung armour side skirts protect the wheels and tracks.

The welding and machining technology for the large armour body sections of the Merkava was developed by the Israeli Army Tank Depot, and the casting of ballistic steel materials was developed by Urdan Industries Ltd at Natanya.

FIRE CONTROL AND OBSERVATION

The Knight Mk III advanced fire control system, from Electro Optics Industries (EL-OP) and Elbit Ltd, integrates with the turret control and gun control units and provides the tank with the ability to engage moving targets while on the move.

The gunner's station is equipped with a thermal sight and day television channel, which are stabilised in two axes. A laser rangefinder and target tracker are integrated into the gunner's sight. The Elbit automatic target tracker is able to automatically aim at the target using the image data presented on the day or night sights.

The commander's station is fitted with a sight which can be optically relayed to the gunner's sight. The Merkava 3 is being fitted with a new day/night stabilised panoramic sight, giving hunter/killer capacity.

PROPULSION

The Merkava Mk 3 is equipped with an AVDS-1790-9AR diesel supplied by Teledyne Continental Motors. The air-cooled diesel provides 1,200hp, compared to the 900hp engine installed in the Mk 1 and Mk 2. The tank's transmission system was developed by the Ashot Ashkelon Industries Limited subsidiary of Israel Military Industries. The Merkava Mark-3 carries 1,400 litres of fuel.

pic ; an M III


have a nice day

[ThePlagueRat]

Wow, what a UU you are presenting to us.
I really don't know about the self-destruction mechanism myself.
It was just something a friend of mine in the UN-peacekeeping forces said. It might have been just rumors, but it might also have been a secret. I'll go and ask him about it.

Btw, in SMAC all units can self-destruct. It would be difficult in Civ3, though. - a game where the cruise missiles cannot even be launched by ships.

[Panag]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
Wow, what a UU you are presenting to us.
I really don't know about the self-destruction mechanism myself.
It was just something a friend of mine in the UN-peacekeeping forces said. It might have been just rumors, but it might also have been a secret. I'll go and ask him about it.

Btw, in SMAC all units can self-destruct. It would be difficult in Civ3, though. - a game where the cruise missiles cannot even be launched by ships.

hi ,

hey what do you expect , the UN stands for ; U-know now Nothing , ......

give the editor a look , its easy to let subs or other ships to launch cruise missiles , .....

have a nice day

[ThePlagueRat]

I can fix it using the editor? Perhaps I can MOD it then, thanks!
It's a flag to switch for the cruise missile or ships, right?

[Panag]

Originally posted by ThePlagueRat
I can fix it using the editor? Perhaps I can MOD it then, thanks!
It's a flag to switch for the cruise missile or ships, right?

hi ,

see what the tactical nuke has flagged , ......

have a nice day

[Silpy]

I have come up with some criteria for civ status.

1) Has it suvived more than either
500 years (pre- 1000 BC)
300 years (after 1000 BC)
in reconisable form?

2) Has it directly inspired civs which followed it?

3) Has it left sufficant records for people to see?

I think this would exclude most civs in the world.

Bye.

I can (and have) be persaded by discussion in the past. And I am willing to admit it.

What ever our sexual orentation, religion, sex, age, nationality, political and cultural opinions, we are all as frail as each other.

[Silpy]

You cant rip into the UN when it does not agree with you. Exp when it has done things to your advantage in the past. You may not like it, but you should respect it, even if the US buys votes. That is what I will do with Iraq. If everybody ripped into it all the time, it would eventully collapse. Then where would we be?

[Dauphin]

International treaties are only honoured by peoples and nations when they are useful, I don't see why we should expect nations and peoples to honour international organisations any differently.

Its a shame, but thats the way it is.