Israel civ

[Edan]

Originally posted by mazzz
Edan:
"A words definition is based on it's useage, not the sum of the meanings of it's syllables."

look up anti and compare all those words to there base words

Again, I prefer to look up the definition of antisemetism in order to find out the definition of antisemetism. Otherwise, using your logic, I might also conclude that:

a "seahorse" is a horse at sea
that something that was "jury-rigged" was rigged by a jury
"having a drink on the rocks" would mean placing the glass on top of rocks
"the alarm clock will go off" means alarm clock will turn itself off.
"work out of one's home" means working outside one's home.


All of which are incorrect.

[HAND]

Israel Civ certainly should be in there......The depth of their history should be reflected in Civ3....and they're the only nuclear power in the middle-east.. SO FAR!

[mazzz]

yes but edan look those dont have "-" in them, i changle you to find me a word with "-" after a prefix that of any relation to it...

[Panag]

hi ,

can we stay on topic please , .....

have a nice day

[Edan]

Originally posted by mazzz
yes but edan look those dont have "-" in them, i changle you to find me a word with "-" after a prefix that of any relation to it...

: points to "Jury-Rigged" :
And antisemitism is valid both with and with out the "-".

[mazzz]

i dismiss that because none of those of "-" in them i changled you to find a word that has "-" had has no relation to the prefix and the word

[Agathon]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth
There is weak archeological evidence of the kingdoms of David and Soloman (a couple of monuments inscribed "House of David" etc.).

There is substantial archeological evidence of the later kings of both the Northern and Southern kingdoms... from Assyrian, Egyptian, and Babylonian records (Egyptian records dating to the 11th century b.c.e about pillaging Israel, Assyrian records in the 8th century recording the captivity of the so-called 10 Lost Tribes, Babylonian records of the conquest in 586 b.c.e.)

So, at a minimum, we can place the dominion of the Hebrew Kingdom as about 500-600 years. Quite a substantial accomplishment.

Persian records document the return of Jews following the end of the Babylonian captivity in 516.

From 516 until the Greek conquest, Judea was a province of the Persian Empire with substantial regional autonomy-- de facto independent at times.

In 164, the Maccabean Rebellion overthrew the Greeks and restored independance for nearly a century.

While never "great" in terms of world power, Jewish dominion over Israel was quite longlasting-- far longer than that of the Arabs, Ottomans, Crusaders and British.

Although only a footnote on world history, there were also independent Jewish kingdoms outside of Israel in Ethiopia, Yemen, Arabia, and Khazaria.

I don't know if I'm going to bother again since people don't seem to want to read all my earlier posts.

Again - the notion of "influential individuals" would best be captured by a "great persons" feature - I think this would adequately capture the contribution of the Jewish people to world history. I said this in my very first post on this topic. Same goes for the Scots who have an impressive record in literature and invention.

The Nobel prize thing doesn't matter at all. Anyone who looks at the winners of the literature and peace prizes knows these are often a joke. John Logie Baird didn't win one - but he invented the television!

Again - I don't buy this "Jewish Empire" stuff. There is no evidence to support the claim that the Jews were ever a dominant empire who dominated huge swathes of territory. Who ever called the Jewish King "The Great King"? No one. Like the Scots, the Poles, and many other ethnic groups the Jews have spent the majority of history getting the c**p kicked out of them by whoever was in charge at the time. Their main claim to fame is the indirect transmission of their religious doctrines - but it was INDIRECT - it isn't as if they conquered half the world like Islam did.

See - no empire = no representation in Civ III. It can't be any plainer than that.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by mazzz
SeferKoheleth:



"While never "great" in terms of world power, Jewish dominion over Israel was quite longlasting-- far longer than that of the Arabs, Ottomans, Crusaders and British."

so what? just because they had the "holy land" longer does not mean there should be a civ...
any way most people calling the selves "hebrew" are really centrail asain Khazars who migrated to europe, thats why there "white"

As the genetic studies I posted earlier prove, the Khazars had effectively NO influence on the Jewish population. Today, a Jew from Morroco is genetically closer to a Jew from Poland than he is to a Morrocan Muslim. The close inter-relatedness of EVERY Jewish community from Tunisia to Germany to India (excepting Ethiopa) proves that virtually all Jews are descended almost entirely from a mid-eastern ancestral population.

As for the Khazars, the historical and genetic evidence suggests that the fable of the entire kingdom converting is just that... a fable. Most likely, only the King and upper-nobility converted, creating a Jewish state with only a minimal converted Jewish population. A group of say 2000 converted nobleman could effectively lead a country... but be far too small a population to have any more than minimal influence on Jewish genetics centuries later.

When I posted links to the studies earlier, someone disputed them with an offhand remark that they studied only "isolated" populations. That is incorrect. The studies selected Jews at random in equal numbers based on country of origin. They studied ALL Jews, not just "isolated" populations.

The critic was correct in one area however-- many Jews DID intermingle and intermarry with the non-Jewish world. However, this was almost exclusively intermarriage OUT, not intermarriage IN (i.e. the intermarried couple became Christian or Muslim, and their decendends ceased to have any trace of Jewish identity). The Jewish population of today decends only from those Jews who did not intermarry and thus maintained their traditions and identity.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by mazzz
lets take your example, congress is not con-gress, its not antisemetic it is anti-semetic... take note of the seperation.

You can argue grammer all you like... and you'd be right. The word anti-semetic is grammatically incorrect and highly misleading in its definition. But it's also true that the word for 100 years was used exclusively to define hatred of Jews, and was NEVER used to define hatred of Arabs.

Many Western languages have words that don't make sense. Hell, in Spanish the word for Saturday is "sabado" (literally, "Sabbath"). That doesn't make a lot of sense in a 99% Catholic country-- hell, it basically admits that the Jews are right with respect to which day is the 7th day. But it's the language.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The State of Israeli is composed of Ashkenazic Jews, Oriental Jews, Mahgreb Jews, and some other types, as well as Israeli Arabs, and some Christians floating around in there. It shouldn't be denied that the founding of Israel was mostly the work of Ashkenazic Jews, but these were not "pure Jews" in the sense of them all being Orthodox, or something like that...

In fact, most of the revolutionary Jewish leaders were socialist in inclination and most of the Orthodox refused to fight, citing religious reasons, so in other words, the modern State of Israel is not made up of the "Jews who stayed Jewish" over the course of 1,000 of years of history exclusively, though those are definitely present... there are many "Europeanized" Jews, and in fact, though still constitute the ruling class of Israel.

To respond once again to "No Great Jewish Empire" argument, I say once more: Iroquois? Aztecs? Zulu? With its intelligence and military operations abroad, Israel today has the potential, even, to be a new "Carthage"... an incredibly powerful miniature state...

Although I doubt that Israel will ever march with elephants over the alps.

[mazzz]

so i take it you turn down my channlged edan?

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth To respond once again to "No Great Jewish Empire" argument, I say once more: Iroquois? Aztecs? Zulu? With its intelligence and military operations abroad, Israel today has the potential, even, to be a new "Carthage"... an incredibly powerful miniature state...

Lame Lame Lame.

"At its greatest extent, the Five Nations (i.e. the Iroquois) occupied a vast territory around Lakes Ontario, Huron and Erie, in present-day New York state and Pennsylvania and southern Ontario and Quebec."

"Before they overwhelmed the neighboring tribes under their leader Shaka in the early 19th century to form an empire, the Zulu were only one of the many patrilineal Nguni clans in the Mtetwa empire."

"Under a succession of ambitious kings they established a dominion that eventually stretched over most of present-day Mexico. By commerce and conquest, Tenochtitlán came to rule an empire of 400 to 500 small states, comprising by 1519 some five-to six-million people spread over 80,000 square miles."

Now who's ever heard - "The Jews conquered a significant portion of the world and reduced the conquered peoples to subject states". "The Jews were the major trading power in the world". "People would quake in fear at the military prowess of the Jews".

Nobody - because it never happened. Hence they aren't in the game. The Jews are a small people, a minor people, never a great civilisation. But then again so are the Scots, the Canadians, the Poles, etc. Please rid yourself of these delusions of grandeur.


Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means. Israel is by no means a powerful country nor does it have any prospect of becoming the world's dominant power.

nuff said.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Agathon
Now who's ever heard - "The Jews conquered a significant portion of the world and reduced the conquered peoples to subject states". "The Jews were the major trading power in the world". "People would quake in fear at the military prowess of the Jews".

Nobody - because it never happened. Hence they aren't in the game. The Jews are a small people, a minor people, never a great civilisation. But then again so are the Scots, the Canadians, the Poles, etc. Please rid yourself of these delusions of grandeur.

Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means. Israel is by no means a powerful country nor does it have any prospect of becoming the world's dominant power.

nuff said.

You can state that all you want, o declarator of delusions of grandeur, but you're the one suffering from delusions...

Israel was founded and won its first great wars without US Aid. In fact, most State Department officials during the 40s and 50s opposed the creation and backing of Israel for fear of alienating potential Arab allies.

Israel is consistently rated by military experts the most efficient, and certainly one of the most feared, militaries on the face of the planet today. And we're living in an age of truly awesome military power, so that's saying something.

True, the Jews haven't done a lot of conquering, but for all the Zulu, Iroquois, and Aztec "dominance," these "empires" were wiped from the face of the map pretty damn quick, you'd have to admit.

Jews have been notable in the financial history of the world, and I'm not talking about some "Jewish Banking Conspiracy," I'm talking about the decision of illiterate Christians and less-literate Muslims to appoint them court financial specialists, well into the 19th century.

I have no delusions of grandeur - I am not pro-Israeli in any way really. I am not Jewish, I do not support Judaism (I also oppose Christianty and Islam), and in fact, I find most actions of the Israel government loathsome and repugnant. However, because of their incredible military prowess, if not size, because of their many victories against overwhelming forces, because of the cultural influence the Jews have had on the three major religions and in the spheres of art, science, etc. - far more so than Scots if you REALLY want to go at it - and because of their unique culture, I feel the Israelis should be included in the game. I am an atheist of Scottish-Irish descent. Still, I enjoy playing as the Chinese, the Ottomans, the Germans, the Aztecs - why not the Jews? I have nothing to prove and Civ is a private game, not a political statement (nor should it be).

I also feel that the Iroquois, Zulu, and Aztecs should remain in the game, and that other cultures or "empires" as you call them that are now dust and were defeated quickly and leave, in the modern world, little imprint, should be included in the game...

BECAUSE THE MORE, THE BETTER.

Anyone else agree?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Agathon

Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means.

Oh, and one other thing: read a little bit about Israel history before you make this ludicrous statement... Israel's nuclear power was STOLEN from America by the Mossad long before America came to stand by Israel as an ally, and Israel has turned to China and Russia many times for support when the US has faltered, and played the Arabs against each other despite their professed desire to "drive Israel into the sea," in numerous acts of diplomacy that rival anything historically committed by any of the current civs in the game.

[Edan]

Originally posted by mazzz
so i take it you turn down my channlged edan?

I'm not sure I even understood your channlged, but I presented my side of the case more than adequately.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Agathon
Let me state again - Israel is a very small country that is effectively a vassal of the United States, without which it would be crushed by military and diplomatic means.

Israel fought all of it's wars, with the exception of the Yom Kippur Warwith negligable support from the US. Of course, as has been pointed out, that has a great deal to do with the incompetance of her enemies, as well as intelligence gathering, as well as Israel's military.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


Oh, and one other thing: read a little bit about Israel history before you make this ludicrous statement... Israel's nuclear power was STOLEN from America by the Mossad

Looks like you're the one that needs to read a bit of Israel's history...

[Edan]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth

and played the Arabs against each other despite their professed desire to "drive Israel into the sea," in numerous acts of diplomacy that rival anything historically committed by any of the current civs in the game.

Hardly an amazing feat, given that the Arab nations have shown that they are more than capable of playing against each other without any Israeli help.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Edan

Looks like you're the one that needs to read a bit of Israel's history...

I should clarify my statement. Israel did not "steal America's nuclear power," but it did solicit American nuclear personnel to smuggle knowledge of the working of nuclear reactors, NOT directed by the CIA or US State Department: it was, essentially, an illegal act that was not revealed until years later, when Israel had truly become "a US vassal" if that's what people want to call this tiny state. The details can be found in "Gideon's Spies," a book about the Mossad, and in other sources. Mossad agents also solicited French help in developing a missle program, with more overt support.

Israel, at its founding, did not have the scientists to build a formidable missile program, but now its missle program is formidable indeed. Sure, it might be not be able to destroy the entire planet MANY times, but it could do it ONCE. So, at the behest of the founders of Israel, much military technology, including nuclear secrets, were stolen in league with pro-Israel technicians abroad, WITHOUT the backing of their governments. The fact that this was not later considered an act of war is due to Israel's later close alignment with America, whose value became apparent in particular in the 1960s and 1970s.

If you think I'm a weird freak, or doubt these facts, look to "A History of Israel From the Rise of Zionism to Our Time"... an exhaustive, pro-Zionist history that, despite its leanings, must admit these basic facts... that Israel played the great powers, and the Arab powers, against each other, in a cynical way, quite effectively. Bismark would have been proud.

(Since they stole the original knowledge, of course, Israel has come to develop a formidable military-scientific complex of its own and now EXPORTS rather than illegally imports missile knowledge)

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Edan


Hardly an amazing feat, given that the Arab nations have shown that they are more than capable of playing against each other without any Israeli help.

Yes, true, the modern Arab states aren't exactly shining examples of diplomatic and military finesse! But during the founding of Israel, their armies did outnumber Israel's by a 10 to 1 manpower ratio, and they employed modern British and French equipment, whereas the Israel "army" had to dig up antiquated equipment... pretty much whatever they could get their hands on.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth


I should clarify my statement. Israel did not "steal America's nuclear power," but it did solicit American nuclear personnel to smuggle knowledge of the working of nuclear reactors, NOT directed by the CIA or US State Department:

The bulk of Israeli nuclear technology came from France, and it wasn't stolen.

Mossad agents also solicited French help in developing a missle program, with more overt support.

On it's ballistics missiles program, IIRC, after Egypt had displayed it's BM. But before Israel went to France, it had already designed and built the Shavit-2 Missile.

Sure, it might be not be able to destroy the entire planet MANY times, but it could do it ONCE.

Once would be more than enough for me.

[SeferKoheleth]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
The State of Israeli is composed of Ashkenazic Jews, Oriental Jews, Mahgreb Jews, and some other types, as well as Israeli Arabs, and some Christians floating around in there. It shouldn't be denied that the founding of Israel was mostly the work of Ashkenazic Jews, but these were not "pure Jews" in the sense of them all being Orthodox, or something like that...

In fact, most of the revolutionary Jewish leaders were socialist in inclination and most of the Orthodox refused to fight, citing religious reasons, so in other words, the modern State of Israel is not made up of the "Jews who stayed Jewish" over the course of 1,000 of years of history exclusively, though those are definitely present... there are many "Europeanized" Jews, and in fact, though still constitute the ruling class of Israel.

To respond once again to "No Great Jewish Empire" argument, I say once more: Iroquois? Aztecs? Zulu? With its intelligence and military operations abroad, Israel today has the potential, even, to be a new "Carthage"... an incredibly powerful miniature state...

Although I doubt that Israel will ever march with elephants over the alps.

The State of Israel was founded by secular Jews--- but even those Jews were only 2 or 3 generations removed from Orthodoxy, and basically did not intermarry. Why? Because there ARE no Jews who are 10 generations secular... Jews who went secular 10 generations ago within 6 generations ago became Christians. I repeat again-- Jews who became so secular so as to intermarry did not have Jewish decendents, they had Christian or Muslim decendents.

Additionally, although FOUNDED by secular Jews, the vast majority of Israel's population came from either Middle Eastern countries or from Eastern Europe, which was more traditional. Upon arriving in Israel, many became secular... but didn't intermarry within Israel became everyone was Jewish or Arab (and the Arabs were very culturally secluded).

[High_Lord]

Sharon is a fatty!!

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by SeferKoheleth


The State of Israel was founded by secular Jews--- but even those Jews were only 2 or 3 generations removed from Orthodoxy, and basically did not intermarry. Why? Because there ARE no Jews who are 10 generations secular... Jews who went secular 10 generations ago within 6 generations ago became Christians. I repeat again-- Jews who became so secular so as to intermarry did not have Jewish decendents, they had Christian or Muslim decendents.

Additionally, although FOUNDED by secular Jews, the vast majority of Israel's population came from either Middle Eastern countries or from Eastern Europe, which was more traditional. Upon arriving in Israel, many became secular... but didn't intermarry within Israel became everyone was Jewish or Arab (and the Arabs were very culturally secluded).

This is all true. One tiny anal retentive point though... there is no one in the world that is 10 generations secular. Modern atheism, i.e., belief in no God or higher power, spirtual power... pure materialism or whatever you want to call it... is a very new concept.

We might be coming on 10 generations soon, but we ain't there yet.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by High_Lord
Sharon is a fatty!!

That's not very nice. He's always spoken well of you.

[Panag]

Originally posted by High_Lord
Sharon is a fatty!!

hi ,

have you looked at yourself in the mirror today

have a nice day

and a happy new year to all

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Edan


Israel fought all of it's wars, with the exception of the Yom Kippur Warwith negligable support from the US. Of course, as has been pointed out, that has a great deal to do with the incompetance of her enemies, as well as intelligence gathering, as well as Israel's military.

Who has done and currently uses its veto to prevent the UN doing something about Israel?

Who indeed....

As for the rest, you are quite clearly being absurd. Let's see - we shall stick up Israel against the forces of the US, Russia, or China shall we? And you still say they would win.

Israel as a global superpower - Come on you can do better than that!

As for vassalage - I could have easily replaced Israel with "Japan" and the statement would still have been true.

You can state that all you want, o declarator of delusions of grandeur, but you're the one suffering from delusions...

Nowhere in your post do you provide any solid refutation of any of my claims, so this is a bit rich.

Israel is consistently rated by military experts the most efficient, and certainly one of the most feared, militaries on the face of the planet today. And we're living in an age of truly awesome military power, so that's saying something.

They aren't even in the top five mate. I agree that the Israelis have an excellent military - in fact I would say that they are arguably the best; but there just aren't enough of them to withstand a real superpower. Do you honestly think that the IDF could whip full might of the United States military machine, or the Russians, or the Chinese, or even the British or the French?

You're kidding, right?

True, the Jews haven't done a lot of conquering, but for all the Zulu, Iroquois, and Aztec "dominance," these "empires" were wiped from the face of the map pretty damn quick, you'd have to admit.

That's it - I win - you lose. My sole point in this discussion has been that the game designers seem to be using, for want of a better term, the "imperial" criterion. At least it looks that way if you read the civ descriptions on the CIV III official site, which I recommend you do as well before you start flaming.

It doesn't matter that the empires fell very quickly - after all the British Empire was only dominant for about 100 years (and both the Aztecs and Iroquois beat that handily) - what matters is that they had empires - the Hebrews never did. The Hebrews/Jews/Israelis are simply not one of the world's great civilisations according to the criteria used by the designers.

Look, if you want the designers to change their criteria then ask them to do so; but as it stands the Hebrews don't fit the bill. They aren't my criteria - they belong to the game designers, whose reasons are probably similar to those I gave above. If the game designers want to change the game to include the Hittites, the Minoans, the Assyrians, the Irish, the Scots and of course the Hebrews, then let them do so. I have no objection as long as they don't play favourites or give in to the Israeli radicals who have an over inflated sense of their country's worth to history.

In my very first post I lamented the fact that the game seemed to have no way of recognising the contributions of peoples like the Jews and the Scots who have had disproportionate influence on history without being great civilisations; I even proposed a "great persons" feature to remedy this defect. I still think this is a better solution than expanding the number of civs to ridiculous lengths.

Having said that it seems to me that the whole argument boils down to this:

1) Were the Hebrews ever a great civilisation like the Romans or the Egyptians?

Answer: unequivocally no. But then neither were the Iroquois or Zulu.

OK - so....

2) Do the Hebrews fit the "imperial" criterion?

Answer: unequivocally no. But the rest of the civs in the game seem to - even Carthage which dominated North Africa and was expanding until checked by the Romans.

If you want to argue against (1), then that's fine - we will have to agree on some definition of a "great civilisation". But if you want to argue against (2), then write to Firaxis.

Jews have been notable in the financial history of the world, and I'm not talking about some "Jewish Banking Conspiracy," I'm talking about the decision of illiterate Christians and less-literate Muslims to appoint them court financial specialists, well into the 19th century.

But does this constitute being a great civilisation or rather what I claimed in my very first post - being influential without being dominant?

[Panag]

hi ,

the reasons that Jews became dominant in certain fields , and especially the financial sector is because we where being witheld to practise many jobs , on top of that with our religion we dont have it easy , .....

today we still hold keyjobs , not because we dont let anyone else in those fields , but because we can do those jobs when no-one else does them

since Jews have only two , three with english languages its easy for us to overcome the language barrier , a jew in japan can with great ease talk to a jew in france or russia

we are not a world superpower in military terms , but we have a great deal of combat experience and a way of thinking that many armies withold themselfs from , as compared to other armies we make it easier to act to a given circumstance in the field , we also tend to value more then any other army in the world the well bing of troops in the field , every fourth soldier carries a stretcher , nowhere else in the world is this being done , why do we do that , because we put the value of the individual more then anything else , we train people not only to work in a team but we train also on the individual , unlike other armies where this is considered a no-go , ....

could we stand against a superpower , yes we can , even limited we have done so before and we can do it again , .....

no where else in the world are there bombshelters to procect the entire population , no where else in the world do they make cars that put the human as being more valueable then anything else , not even uncle sam does that , .....

the biggest point of having them join the game would de to creat scenarios , scenarios you cant make without them , .... this way we can all fight on the side we want and see for ourself what we want , ....

have a nice day

[mazzz]

and which suuper power didyou" fight?

panag: we stand against a superpower , yes we can , even limited we have done so before and we can do it again"

[Panag]

Originally posted by mazzz
and which suuper power didyou" fight?

panag: we stand against a superpower , yes we can , even limited we have done so before and we can do it again"

hi ,

look at Israel's history , .....

have a nice day