Theology Debate

[Togas]

Please vote and debate this issue as I am currently unsure how we should resolve it.

We have a GL. We ought to use him soon. But we cannot build a GW until we learn Theology.

We are given Theology by an early peace with Persia.
We can learn it ourself in 12 turns.
We can buy it for aprox 556L (we can do a combination of LPT & Lyton, but each LPT is equivalant to 18 Lytons)
We can try to trade for it from France or Babylon if they develop it by trading them Chivalry.
We can try to trade/buy it from Greece when we renegotiate our luxury deal.

The issue that bothers me most is that I don't know how long it'll be until someone else builds the Sistine Chapel. It could be next turn, or it could be forty turns from now. We would only be able to tell by spying on a few of their cities to get a rough idea of how long. As I don't have the game in front of me, could someone please check the cost to spy on some of the cities who are building it.

This poll is unofficial, will expire in three days.

--Togas
Please post your thoughts.

--Togas

[Aro]

England (Nottingham) = 72 g
Greece (Sparta) = 64 g
Rome (Rome) = 126 g
Germany (Berlin) = 116 g
Russia (Moscow) = 66 (We don't have an Embassy in Moscow: it's the price of one).
We have 190 g, and we're making 54 gpt

[Togas]

It'll cost us aprox 300 Lytons to check the 3 most likely cities to see what progress has been made on Sistine. Hrm. Probably more worthwhile just to buy the damn thing.

Anyone disagree?

--Togas

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by Togas
It'll cost us aprox 300 Lytons to check the 3 most likely cities to see what progress has been made on Sistine. Hrm. Probably more worthwhile just to buy the damn thing.

Anyone disagree?

--Togas

Yes, "just buy the damn thing".

[Aro]

Yep. Agreed. The damn thing.

[Shiber]

I think we all agree that the thing is damned.

Damn Chapel! I'd piss on you if you weren't so damn beneficial!!

[Zero]

WAIT! We all know we can't wipe off the Persians the face of this earth in few turns cause they have few cities scattered around the globe. Well if they are gonna live when we're done with the main part of empire, why not leave one semi-decent city thats close to us alive, mobilize a force next to it and steal their possesion off clean, even their shirts! with a peace treaty. Thats FAR cheaper then buying it.

[E_T]

If I could vote twice, it would be to wait the 12 turns AND to see if we can get it through trade for Chivalry with France/Babylon if they get it before then.

Please see my detailed DFM Report in this thread for my reasonings, etc. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=62238

E_T

[Robber Baron]

Buy the tech. The price is cheap, considering our current rate of lyton production, and considering that it's the Chapel we're buying.

[Arnelos]

I must express that I have come to greatly doubt the divine providence of the Great Banana toward the Banana' chosen, for how can it be asserted that the Great Banana, in its infinite wisdom, would establish a preference for ------

0h... you mean THAT type of "Theology Debate"...

[GhengisFarb™]

BUY THEOLOGY. We're going to wait a few turns to build up forces to insure our victory over Persia and I doubt the Sistine chapel will be available by the time we negotiate a peace treaty.

So the smart thing to do is buy the Sistine Chapel and build it next turn.

Besides think of all those AI civs who lost out on Sun Tzu, switched to the Sistine and will now lose out on it.

[nz_upy]

IMHO I think that we have until Cheops makes it safe and sound to Ubergorsk and on that turn IF Sistines is still available we should immediately aquire Theology in any way possible (apart fom peace with Persia) and rush Sistines to thwart the AI and make them waste all their shield production.

In saying all that how long will it take Sir Cheops to reach Ubergorsk?

[Donal Graeme]

lets see, movement rate of 3, on roads, so that would make 9 tiles per turn, equaling...

[Donegeal]

Originally posted by nz_upy
IMHO I think that we have until Cheops makes it safe and sound to Ubergorsk and on that turn IF Sistines is still available we should immediately aquire Theology in any way possible (apart fom peace with Persia) and rush Sistines to thwart the AI and make them waste all their shield production.

In saying all that how long will it take Sir Cheops to reach Ubergorsk?

This is the best option. It was discussed somewhere already that it will take 5 turns for Cheops to get to Ubergrosk. If at this time, Sistine's Chapel has not beed completed, we sould buy the tech/trade for the tech from anyone except for Persia (who we sould continue to punish for breaking the RoP with us). After we techwhore Theology, rush build Sistine's Chapel with GL.

If we get another GL, go for Leo's workshop or Army.

[Donegeal]

Hmmm

My idea doesn't seem to be an option

How long until the dye trade is up with Greece?

[Arnelos]

donegal, I agree that next GL (or this one if Sistine Chapel doesn't work out) should go toward Leonardo's (first priority... it's just so powerful) or an Army barring that.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Buy it somehow, but do not get peace with Persia. The Pyramids alone will take some time to capture (and hold).

Why not buy it this turn and rush it in Willsbury? 3 units to garrison Willsbury will be enough to brevent a flip for the next 3 turns, which at that point Sistine's will be generating enough Culture to prevent. Aggie is not planning an offinsive over those three turns, then those units can join the rest on a march south.

[Shiber]

IMHO, the next GL should go for an army -> heroic epic, and the next should go for Leo's Workshop, which will give us tremendous advantages, especially while knights and cavalry are the dominant units. Since we can build our UU throughout the entire game, we will be able to rush war chariots at the cost of 80 gold and then upgrade them to knights at the cost of 50 gold - a total cost of 130 gold per knight, which is much better than just rushing a knight for 280 gold. This advantage will become even greater as we gain access to cavalry.

[joncnunn]

Voted "Buy now", but exact preference wasn't listed so stating it here:

Buy now if renegoation can't come up before our Great Leader is in the city we wish to build Sistine Chapel.

[GePap]

If the to-buy option wins, then we certainly can't spy on anyone- and if we spy on anyone, the cost of that operation might mean we can't buy it.

We have to make a choice- what do we want more- all of the Persian homeland? or The pyramids and the chapel? I would say, hake Persepolis, make peace, get both, Take America- wait 20 turns, take the rest of Persia's homeland. It is not written in stone (If it is, someone point me to the requisite poll) that we must, in this campaign, secure the entire Persian homeland- we can get insence from Chicago, and the Chapel is worth more then 3 spice, for now, specially without the markets to give our own cities a worthwhile happiness boost (spices are more widely distirbuted than insence- so the market for them wil be much weaker).

[UnOrthOdOx]

Originally posted by GePap
If the to-buy option wins, then we certainly can't spy on anyone- and if we spy on anyone, the cost of that operation might mean we can't buy it.

We have to make a choice- what do we want more- all of the Persian homeland? or The pyramids and the chapel? I would say, hake Persepolis, make peace, get both, Take America- wait 20 turns, take the rest of Persia's homeland. It is not written in stone (If it is, someone point me to the requisite poll) that we must, in this campaign, secure the entire Persian homeland- we can get insence from Chicago, and the Chapel is worth more then 3 spice, for now, specially without the markets to give our own cities a worthwhile happiness boost (spices are more widely distirbuted than insence- so the market for them wil be much weaker).

I agree with you, somewhat, but would like to point out this:

We cannot simply take the Pyramids and make peace. They will flip right back because the capitol is likely to flip right next door. We must take all 4 cities down in that little penninsula to ensure we can keep the Pyramids. That will take TOO long. We must either choose Peace NOW for 20 turns, or to take the Pyramids, and the four other cities. Unless you have some plan for prevention of flipping?

We were discussing renegotiating peace with America once upon a time... If we did that, we cannot go attack them for another 20.

[GhengisFarb™]

Originally posted by GePap
We have to make a choice- what do we want more- all of the Persian homeland? or The pyramids and the chapel?

Why must we give up the Persian homeland to get the Pyramids? That makes no sense.

I choose E, all of the above.

[GePap]

What i meant Ghengis, is that we can take Persepolis, make peace, demand theology, and get both the Pyramids and the Chapel (UnOrthO: I on't see why Perseoplis flipping is such a given- Persepolis is the Persians main culture city, we have far more culture than Persia, and if we put a big enough army to crush dissent, then begin to starve and rush a temple, then a lib or cathedral,we could keep it). We don't know how long until others get the chapel- I don't know if we currently have the money needed to buy it outright, so if we really want the chapel, getting it from persia is the quickest way, but I would not support a peace with persia until we got the pyramids. Convoluted, but that it.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Looking closely, you can see Bactra has size 3 culture. It would be putting at least 3 squares of Perseopolis under Cultural pressure. Susa has no culture at the moment, and Tarsas is too far away. So, I would say at a minimum we should take out Bactra as well as Perseopolis to ensure our keeping the Pyramids. That would also give us Incense.

[joncnunn]

The Persian culture already built up inside Persepolis is the major reason why it would flip back if there's another Persian city whose culture overlaps its city radius.

To keep Persepolis, we have to capture or raze all the pennisula.

Any cities we opt to capture rather than raze themselves have to be checked to make sure they don't run the risk of flipping.

[Aggie]

A major cause of flip is previous culture and # squares in radius in enemy territory and # foreign people, now we could perhaps starve it and garrison enough to prevent flip, lets face it a size 1 city might not flip especially one like persopolis since it would grow very very quickly and soon our people would outnumber the persians, at the very least we would need to buy temple there. For the record the war with persia will be over in about 15 turns if my estimates are correct. Of course if we have a serious setback at persolpolis we can just make peace and come back in 20 turns and finish them off. I wouldn't mind if we took susa and bactra though,perhaps I will send all forces there and forgo the northern assault until another time, lest face it, with knights the northern city are just 2 more turns away.
HEY I am editing this to mention an idea, how about I send a secondary force of knights(2 at least depending on production), then we could have those forces to help attack persopolis but they could also if not needed rush toward incense.
Aggie

[=OttomusCeasar=]

As stated by the alien invaders in Independence Day:

NO PEACE.

We must take all of the Persian Homeland our risk angering the Great Banana.

[Togas]

My fantastic Ministry research department (E_T) has reported to me that the most likely city to be in the lead to build the Sistine Chapel is Moscow. This is based on reviewing old saves and checking the progress/construction in each of the candidate cities.

He is currently double-checking his figures to see if a city with a lot more production than Moscow could be beating them in the race.

The price of an embassy (and to spy on Moscow) is only 66g. Well worth the investment, as we need an embassy in Moscow anyway. This glimpse into Moscow on the first turn of the chat will give us a good idea of how close the other civs are to building this wonder.

What if we find out that Moscow is 15+ turns away from construction? Would the people be willing to wait a few more turns to buy Theology? My hunch is that we might be able to trade Chivalry for it in the coming turns, but I cannot say how soon.

I am very reluctant to devote such a large amount of our annual income for the next 20 turns to this debt. We would be guaranteeing our current tax rate (no science) and hampering our economy for the next four turnchats. I will order the expendature if we must, but understand that I am looking for every possible way NOT to spend such a large amount of money on this tech.

--Togas

[adaMada]

Togas,
Agree in full with your post, especially if E_T decides that he thinks there's no one else who can catch up with the Russians.

If we need to blow the next twenty turns to get a wonder that'll help us for the rest of the game, then I'd be fine with that, but if it's possible to avoid it, we should -- too many other opportunities that we'll wind up missing due to a lack of cash.

-- adaMada

[Togas]

I wanted to post the following report from E_T, who has been working on this difficult dilema for The Ministry.

Moscow had 7 pop when it started and built to 8, Rome & Sparta had smaller populations and built up to where they are now. They are started 4 turns after Moscow. Berlin was relatively small, but 4 of it's squares are irrigated flood plain, so they have about as much now as moscow started out with, they also started after Rome & Sparta. Nottingham shouldn't even be trying for a Wonder, it's pathetic at size 6 with little real production and they started after Berlin. If Berlin was the size then as it is now, my bet would be with them, but Moscow had the head start (32 turns total) and the higher overall production through out.

Also, If we cut the Persian Trade route, Berlins production will fall behind. My book is on Moscow and may the Banana help me if I'm wrong.

We're going with the embassy and, hopefully, it will give us some productive information.

--Togas