Strategy observations for a Newbie, FROM a Newbie

[Velociryx]

Feels strange to be referring to myself as a Newbie, but that, in a very real sense, is exactly the case here. Sure, I've spent a lot of time playing strategy games in general, but CtP2 is brand new to me, and from what I have seen in my limited forrays into the game thus far, it stands to have the kind of depth and intricate inner-workings that I have been hoping to find.

From what I have seen so far, it's a simply stunning system! Best 19 bucks I ever spent on a computer game!

What I'd like to do is make my newbie observations here exactly as they occur to me in-game, and if they're inaccurate or just downright wrong, I expect the CtP2 vets who might follow the development of this thread to correct my newbie mistakes. With luck, time, and games under my belt, the end result will be an ever-growing, quite good strat thread that others who take the time to discover just how cool the game really is can read, and get off to a running start!

So....first thing, and this may well show my newbie status better than anything else....I started my first (and only, so far) game as the Scots, and accepted all game defaults, which means Medium difficulty level. The game opener saw me with two (2) settler units--note to self: this may be variable, depending on difficulty level, and as such, may not be a universal rule of thumb, BUT! For the moment, two settlers....that's a familiar scene, hearkening back to SMAC days (transcend level play, two colony pods at game start).

Right away, I knew how to handle this, then, and felt quite comfortable with the setup.

I also decided that there was no compelling reason NOT to use use my usual Civ-style city spacing (with three blank tiles between cities, or, put another way, cities four tiles apart), so this led me to my first real strategic decision.

The same thinking that held true in SMAC *should* hold true in CTP2....that being, the most efficient use of those initial two settlers is to move them both on turn one, in opposite directions to get rapid spacing between them. (this, as opposed to building a city on turn one, and moving the other). Turn two sees me moving both settlers again, and now they're in position for building both cities on turn three (this, as opposed to building a city on turn one, and then having to wait until turn five to build the second city) - Caveat....since rivers effectively double your movement rate, rivers are of CRUCIAL early game importance, and founding cities on rivers seems the best move, not only for commerce bonus (I'm assuming that, in any case), but also for the sake of speed--if you're already ON the river moving, it's easy enough to set up shop there).

Thus, my first conclusion: Rivers are the BEST thing you can hope to see on the opener, even if the terrain surrounding the river is marginal....the speed bonus of being able to get both cities set up quickly FAR outweighs the long-term impacts of marginal city spots in the early game.

First priority after getting those cities founded is to train some explorers, and warriors are perfect in this role, so as a rule of thumb, we get, found city, build warrior to explore, build Hoplite to defend with, and fortify him in town.

That gets you set up where exploration, offense/exploration, and defense are concerned.

And of course, your exploring warriors are lookin' for new city sites and cashing in on those juicy "goody huts."

Growth: The best thing you can do for yourself in the early game is to make a farmer specialist and jack up that food production to help the city grow faster! A size one city won't produce much anyways, so it's not like you're losing a lot.

Other stuff to consider early on:
* Lower the science tax - not much need in having a wampum big science tax when you have no real scientific base to work with.

* Raise the length of workday for your people

* Increase their pay, to offset the increase in workday (countermand the happiness hit)

* Leave their ration the same, or lower it slightly if you find yourself flush with cash and can raise wages further to offset this added unhappiness hit (more food = faster growth, faster growth = more population, more population = more of everything).

* Lower public works tax 10-20%. In the early goings, all you're really gonna need are 1-2 farms and some roads for each of your towns....can't get mines and such till you have a few techs under your belt anyway, so you might as well squeeze out as much raw production as you can in makin' scouts, settlers, and defenders.

* USE the rushbuy button! Cash seems to be VERY easy to come by in this game, ESPECIALLY if you build a few of your cities near goods, with an eye toward trade routes a bit later (err...at least, if I'm understanding the way caravans work!).

* Roads = Mobility! In the early goings, make use of rivers whevever possible, but when you spend your PW points, spend them on food first (if you have a new town that has no farm) and roads as a close second. Connect rivers with roads leading to them to get a bit more mileage out of your fledgling road network!

Combined arms: Make an army as soon as you're able to, with at least three units in it. If you get an archer unit from a goody hut, so much the better....stick him in an army with a warrior and a hoplite, and you've got a mean trio....add a second archer as you can (either via goody hut or ballistics tech), and you've got a relatively mean, ancient era force. The thing is...with armies set up like they are, a force that has lossa missile troops and/or flanking units in it can CREAM a force made up entirely of footsloggers, even if that force is many times larger....take advantage of that, and set yourself up for the win with good army composition!

Feats of Wonder: The presence of the 'Circumnavigation' Feat of Wonder is an outstanding reason to get a boat in the water ASAP! That makes a coastal city of high importance as you explore! If your first two cities aren't on the coast, I'd make it a point to plant the third one there, and build a boat first thing!

Also, the "recapture what was once yours" feat of wonder can be a GODSEND if you time it right....given the limit on your number of cities, if you can conveniently arrange to lose one of your cities at about the same time you begin violating the city limit on Tyrannical governments, you can buy yourself some more time to make the switch to something kinder and gentler.

Slavers! They rule! They give you extra slaves any time an enemy unit is lost in battle! if your army does not have a slaver in it, you're missing out! Slaves = production! Get some from a barbarian horde near you (or any convenient neighbor!)

More later....almost time to go home and continue my game!

-=Vel=-

[hexagonian]

Excellent so far - some of the strategy tips will be harder to achieve in a mod like Cradle though...here's some examples of things to be aware of when you make the jump to a Mod like Cradle

1. Cash is too plentiful in the default game.
1a. Cash is a lot more valuable in Cradle because you will also need it to upgrade units - so players will have to decide to either upgrade or RB, and missing out of the upgrade sequence can be dangerous for your military.

Plus RB costs have been greatly increased in Cradle from the default game.

2. Sliders are too easily used in the default game, especially early in the game.
2a. Sliders in Cradle are very costly in happiness penalties - and many times you can only get one click from a slider at the cost of 2 clicks elsewhere - or liberal use of entertainers.

[Locutus]

One thing to note: since CtP2 has variable city limits and also a limit on the total number of cities you can have (well, it's not a hard limit but the happiness penalty can be severe), it might be useful to keep slightly more space between the cities than you're used to in Civ/SMAC. That way cities can grow larger and your empire controls more territory. I usually try to keep at least 5-6 tiles between cities, so the limit can at least grow to 3 tiles in all my major cities. Especially the first cities need a lot of room, as they also tend to become your largest cities later on in the game.

Also, a high happiness has little or no bonus in CtP2, so you really want to keep it as low as possible, so you can max out other things like food, production or science. So don't be afraid to max out workdays, rations and wages. Personally I aim to keep all cities at 73, some other people here even don't mind accepting the occasional riot and aim at 71-72.

Although I always keep science at a max myself (but I'm a very scientific player, I don't know how others do this), the rest of the stuff you posted makes sense.

I hope for you you're on your way home by now!

[Dale]

Vel:

Great to see you trying out CTP2. It's an honour to see the great strat writer take on CTP2. *bows humbly*

BTW, don't take "default/vanilla/original" CTP2 too heavily for your strats. When you jump to a Mod, be it Apolyton Pack, Med Mod, Cradle, Goodmod or World at War, you'll find things very different. For instance, in SAP and Cradle, you'll definitely want to keep your science rolling. Even if it's only one extra science point per turn, the AI gets such a lead in techs that it's very hard to come back. Basically, in most games you'll probably find your knights 'n pikes versus muskets and cannons at one point.

Don't worry about the sliders. In vanilla CTP2, the manual is wrong. You can drop to 73 happiness, no riots. Max out food, prod and comm. You'll laugh all the way to the bank.

Also, like Hex said, don't get to reliant on money.

Remember too that slaves have a downside, the Emancipation Act. If you have slaves, GET THIS WONDER!

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Dale
Remember too that slaves have a downside, the Emancipation Act. If you have slaves, GET THIS WONDER!

Indeed, make sure you get that wonder. However, also make sure you get it as late in the game as possible, to max out the time in which you can take advantage of slaves.

[Hermann the Lombard]

"I am but an egg" compared with the others who have responded so far (bows humbly to the Mod Masters). This is a Cradle vs Vanilla tip: warriors in Cradle don't flank, so the equivalent trio (warrior+spearman+slinger) is a bit of a waste of effort, as the warrior stands shoulder to shoulder with the spearman while one of them gets hacked to death, and only then does the survivor take his first swing. The second grunt doesn't do much good until the opposition fields two of their own. Naturally, I try to get missile weapons (for slingers) and horses (for javelin cavalry) ASAP to get the deadly grunt+flanker+missile combo.

[Tamerlin]

I'am rather surprised to hear you can set happiness as low as 73 or 74, I usually try to maintain happiness as high as 76 in every city as the few times I let it evolve to 75 or lower I have been faced with riots.

May be I have been unlucky, I will try this tactic in the game I'am currently playing with the SAP.

[Dale]

Tamerlin:

SAP actually changes the riot level to 75, so the 73-74 level only works with vanilla CTP2.

[Martin Gühmann]

The number of initial settlers really depends on the difficuilt setting and on the mod you use. Expect to find you in ApolytonPack only with one settler on hard level. (Don't know how it does look on medium.) The second settler is a huge advantage in the game, for example if you have two cities at the beginning you have also two times the science output at the start.

Another tip to found a costial city as first city is to move on the river to one side. If you selected the right side you find the coast. If you are not on a river then move the settler a little bit around. You can also see that the tiles have borders so you can see if the adjacent tile could be a coastial tile, unfortunatly it could be a desert tile, too.

-Martin

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I will try this tactic in the game I'am currently playing with the SAP.

73 and 74 are also riotous in Cradle.

[hexagonian]

Originally posted by Hermann the Lombard
73 and 74 are also riotous in Cradle.

Yeah, you lose that nice, soft (+2) cushion in Cradle...

[Velociryx]

Important note to self: The terrain that a town is founded on is VERY important to take note of! 'specially if you're attacking the town with mounted troops. If you win, and the town is in terrain that the mounties can't go into, they all die. ::GULP!::

-=Vel=-
_{firsthand discovery, upon losing NINE knights upon burning down an enemy size one town, and proudly taking no losses during the battle....then, much to my horror, my most powerful force simply vanished....*sigh*}

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Dale
Tamerlin:

SAP actually changes the riot level to 75, so the 73-74 level only works with vanilla CTP2.

Thanks for the tip Dale. I will keep to a 76 "happiness".

By the way, I have stopped working on the SAP french translation for a few month but I think I will soon have
the time and the will to start it again. The second half of the Great Library is the only part that has not been translated so far. I plead guilty your honor...

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Important note to self: The terrain that a town is founded on is VERY important to take note of! 'specially if you're attacking the town with mounted troops. If you win, and the town is in terrain that the mounties can't go into, they all die. ::GULP!::

Second note: when faced with a huge pile of boulders on a hillside, do NOT yank the bottom rock from the downhill side.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
By the way, I have stopped working on the SAP french translation for a few month but I think I will soon have
the time and the will to start it again. The second half of the Great Library is the only part that has not been translated so far. I plead guilty your honor...

That's good to hear, Tamerlin, I feared you had given up already (I thought of doing a Dutch translation myself but the humongous Great Library file strike my heart with fear )

Hermann,

[Velociryx]

Other random strat notes:

Barbarians seem to spawn in areas which are covered over by the fog of war.

Barbarians are annoying (tho they are a good source of slaves).

The solution then, is twofold:
a) begin pulling out-dated units out of your cities as newer ones become available, and use these as spotter units to help dispel fow.

b) keep a smallish, but easily controlled/contained region "in the dark" and use this as a spawning ground for barbs. Keep a medium-sized army with a slaver handy in that region to bust the barbs up and generate some free labor for your empire. (refinement - if you want to generate slave labor in multiple quarters of your empire, it may be wise to have at least two, possibly three such regions scattered about your empire, especially if they are easily controlled (ie - chokepoint leading to a smallish nub of land).

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Public Works - Other notes to self kept here in the public fora

Roads are of utmost importance in the early game, for a variety of reasons, and because of that, "Trade" is one of the most compelling early game techs. Nothing says 'We Have Arrived' quite like trade goods increasing your wealth and a budding road network!

Plus, roads help speed your continuing expansion, and are invaluable when maneuvering troops.

When making improvements to a given city, don't do it half-arsed! If you mean to improve a target city, then go all out and improve all six tiles surrounding the city square. Do this because of the way in which production and such are calculated. Spreading six terrain improvements out over six different cities is not NEARLY as efficient or as effective as bulk terraforming one city at a time.

Terraforming rule of thumb: first six tiles, 3 farms, 3 mines, next ring, split farms and mines evenly to make up half, and make the other half trading posts. Plenty of food, plenty of production, lossa coin. Subject to terrain considerations, of course.

-=Vel=-
(makin' notes here so I don't forget anything)

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Barbarians seem to spawn in areas which are covered over by the fog of war.

Well, usually. But if they run out of room, they *can* be created within line of vision as well. They seem to prefer Fog of War, but this is not a hard limit. But in spite of this, your strategy probably still works though, most of the time anyway... Great idea, BTW

[Velociryx]

Thanks man....just jotting down notes to myself so I don't forget stuff I wanna experiment with further in my own games

-=Vel=-

[Locutus]

Notes to yourself, but not just for yourself They're great, keep it up

[centrifuge]

Originally posted by Locutus
Notes to yourself, but not just for yourself They're great, keep it up

Absolutely, Vel!! Great job, I'm having a ball reading all of your "notes" There's some very insightful stuff there.

[Velociryx]

Well, in that case, I'll have to start one more game and make use of all the stuff I've I've been learning 'bout since I started reading here (tho I think I will NOT abandon my Egyptian game entire...the on-going war has just been too much fun!), and start with...Oh...I guess it doesn't really matter, since no civ has a unique ability...guess the biggest differences then, are city style and names....but I DO hope I get a better mix of starting techs next time! The ones I wound up starting with this go 'round just weren't my first picks....LOL Anyway, will see if I can write up something that approaches an AAR in its style and substance....

-=Vel=-

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Terraforming rule of thumb: first six tiles, 3 farms, 3 mines, next ring, split farms and mines evenly to make up half, and make the other half trading posts.

Eight tiles in the inner ring. I like to have some trading posts early on, especially in Cradle where you need cash for upgrading units (wads of it; a typical upgrade at Iron Working will easily exceed 22,000 gold). Also in Cradle you don't get 1/6 of the resources per pop point as you do in the base game, you get (sensibly) 1/8 (inner ring, of course).

[Velociryx]

Economics, Call To Power Style (Econo 101 Course Notes, Courtesy, The School of Hard Knocks!)

Am playing my first game on Impossible level….started it this weekend just for kicks, and I’m gonna win it. Oh, I’m not one of the top contenders now, according to the overall power chart score, but the issue has already been decided, and it’s been decided in my favor.

How’s that?

Simply because I have unlocked the secrets that make the economy hum in CtP2. I can use that to dominate first the continent I started on, and then the world.

The key to the game, as I have discovered, lies in Public Works….specifically, in your public works tax rate. Regardless of your starting situation or level of play, what you MUST do, in order to really bring your empire to life as the fire-breathing behemoth it can truly be, is engineer a period of peace after achieving a critical mass of cities (think Monarchy or Republic, and twelve to twenty cities). However you have to get to that point, do it, and while you’re doing it, forget about PW. Zero to ten percent is all you need, because your primary focus is gonna be building basic stuff, and to do that quickly, you need every bit of your ancient era economy firmly focused dominating your starting region, if not your continent (this depends primarily on how many opponents you face on your continent, and its overall size….in my Impossible game, for instance, my starting continent is vast, but I found myself squashed between four (arguably five) considerably larger powers, and there was simply no way I could eat the continent in one bite. Instead, I focused on a couple of strategic choke points that enclosed a sufficient area to allow me to reach that critical mass I spoke of.

As with most games of this genre, the hardest level of difficulty is much more combat oriented than the lower levels of play, and mass combat is not really my thing, but….just to say I had done it, of course, I had to tackle that particular beast.

In this game, I’m playing the Celts (AAR-style report to follow, at the conclusion of this game), and was utterly hemmed in by the Russians to the North (and the English and Spanish), the Americans to the west, and the Dutch to the south. Had enough room for my capitol and ONE additional city. One.

That was it for me, but it didn’t matter.

I was blessed to have started with both tool making and ballistics, and so I had all the ingredients I needed to start kicking names and taking a$$…..er…something like that…. And that’s precisely what I did. Set the economy to maximize production at my paltry two cities till I had a burgeoning ancient era military and started hacking my way westward.

When the last American city fell, I had carved out a smallish nation for myself….ten cities, and even tho it killed me in terms of happiness (still under tyranny), I kept right on trucking, cos on Impossible level, the baddies don’t give you much breathing room. So I scratched and clawed and fought my way through waves of Russian, Dutch, and Spanish armies until I MADE them leave me alone. I made them do that by ignoring everything but the biggest and best military units I could afford, and in such quantity that they simply could not sweep me aside. I made them leave me alone by shamelessly tech-following. Letting the big dogs of the world achieve first discoveries and I simply and shamelessly followed in their footsteps when the techs were cheaper thanks to general proliferation of knowledge. Eventually, when the larger, more established empires of the world realized that I would not be moved from the territory I staked out as my own, they all approached ME with offers of peace. I never left my home territory. Never acted out in anger, not even when enemy slavers would make off with my population. We simply defended what was ours, and in the end, we won a fragile peace (a peace that has recently been broken as I write this….cursed Russians!).

Once I had that window of opportunity. Once I had enough military to protect what was mine from any foreign power, I was able to shift economic gears and do something amazing.

Public Works tax went from ten (I had ten just so I could build roads between my cities) to seventy percent. Rations rose dramatically and wages rose nominally as our workday was maxed out. End result, nearly a thousand points of public works, each and every turn.

First step was to stop barbarian incursions, so fortresses were built through the length and breadth of our fledgling empire, pushing back the darkness and providing a generalized sense of security for our people. Second step, massive investment in a military road network, making sure I had redundant routes, switchbacks, and loops in place. After that, food. Partly, this was to offset the greater rations we were doling out, and part of it was simple economics. More people = more workers. Next, production….more production, given our massive PW rate, means that each turn, we get even MORE PW points. The entire system spirals up and up and up….and so did our overall ranking. In next to no time, we went from barely a blip on the ol’ global radar, to a position surpassing one of my former enemies, The Russ, and being neck and neck with several others.

Of course, the game leaders are still some distance off, but the fact is that the massive infusion of PW points during this period of militarily enforced peace was essential to my success. Having maxed out my food and production, the last (but certainly not least) element was, of course, commerce. More money for rush buying (which is essential under this plan, since you have almost no city production), and more coin for science, so my tech following plan picked up considerable speed, and advances started falling into my lap in 2-4 turns, instead of 6-10. The Celtic empire was truly emerging, and our strength was becoming apparent.

Economy rules all, and the power of Public Works is simply too huge to ignore. The ability to make 1000+ points of improvements EVERY TURN is the kind of power that can turn a struggling nation into an empire in the truest sense of the word.

Want to see the effect in action? Best way would be to keep checking your army manager as you make these massive investments, and watch the “upkeep as a percentage of your total economy” falls to near nothing. Mine started at 38% when I began my investment binge, and is now hovering at 11% (climbing again, as I begin to gear up for another war with the Russians, who broke peace with me).

Economy.

As an economist by education, I really, really like that in this game, it’s not JUST about military might. Military might will only take you so far. It’s the engine that GOT me to critical mass, and so is vitally important, but it’s my economy that’ll keep me there….and then some….

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Double post hunted down and eaten....

-=Vel=-

[FrustratedPoet]

way to double post there mate! a full 30 mins between posts.

this game is starting to sound more and more interesting. since it is so damn cheap now I may be tempted to give it a go. Public Works in particular sounds very cool - i hate micromanaging workers in Civ3!

[Velociryx]

LOL....thanks guy....not quite sure how that happened, either?! Mayhaps I need to lay off of the time travel experiments, eh?

Yes....a highly recommended game, and learning the ins and outs of it has given me a vast, vast pool of ideas for use in CB. The depth and types of statistics offered here for empire management, the strength of PW and the economic model in general, the sense of empire....all of it combines to create a deep, truly outstanding game experience.....

-=Vel=-

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Hey Vel,

I should be getting my copy of CTP2 here shortly. Question, am I to understand that there is no inherent distinguishing characteristic defining each civlization. Shame if thats the case because one of the things I enjoyed in SMAC and CIV3 was learning the game from a different perspective/civilization and fine tuning that game plan accordingly. (Civ3 less so IMHO than say SMAC).

The ability to run a game in so many different modes made each of those games have more replayability (again SMAC moreso than say CIV3). I speak to linear gaming. Does CTP2 appear to be too linear?

[Velociryx]

::nodding:: that's one of the things I was a bit disappointed in....the fact that each Civ is pretty much the same as every other civ, and it doesn't have to BE that way cos the tech tree is so vast.....seems like it'd be easy enough to give each civ it's own unique mix of techs (you get three at random at game start, but imagine a game where the vikings always started with ship building, etc.)....I think this *could be* moddable....least that's the early buzz.....I hope so, cos that would be truly awesome! (another possibility....civ-specific feats of wonder/events that are used to give each group a unique set of strengths to play to/weaknesses to cover).

Overall tho, even with the identical nature of all civs, the game does not come across as linear because there are so dang many ways to approach the tech tree (hearkening back to SMAC in that regard). There are so many variant approaches and unconventional units (lawyers, clerics, televangelists, slavers, etc), that it's almost dizzying!

-=Vel=-

[Pedrunn]

seems like it'd be easy enough to give each civ it's own unique

mix of techs (you get three at random at game start, but imagine a game where the vikings always started with ship building, etc.)....I think this *could be* moddable....least that's the early buzz.....I hope so, cos that would be truly awesome! (another possibility....civ-specific feats of wonder/events that are used to give each group a unique set of strengths to play to/weaknesses to cover).

All that is possible. And not very hard to do. The only really difficulty is the number of civs . But that could be decreased or increased as you like.

The specific beggining advances code is as hard as this:

Note: It only grants advance for the vikings (ship building), egyptians (tool making), greeks (philosophy).

CIVILIZATION_TYPE[];
CIVILIZATION_ADVANCE[];

HandleEvent(BeginTurn) 'GrantSpecificAdvances' post {
int_t i;

CIVILIZATION_TYPE[0] = CivilizationIndex("VIKING");
CIVILIZATION_ADVANCE[0] = advanceDB(ADVANCE_SHIP_BUILDING);

CIVILIZATION_TYPE[1] = CivilizationIndex("GREEK");
CIVILIZATION_ADVANCE[1] = advanceDB(ADVANCE_PHILOSOPHY);

CIVILIZATION_TYPE[2] = CivilizationIndex("EGYPTIAN");
CIVILIZATION_ADVANCE[2] = advanceDB(ADVANCE_TOOLMAKING);

// Template
//CIVILIZATION_TYPE[*] = CivilizationIndex("");
//CIVILIZATION_ADVANCE[*] = advanceDB();

	if(IsplayerAlive(player[0])
	&& GetCurrentRound() == 0) {
		for(i = 0; i < CIVILIZATION_TYPE.#; i = i + 1) {
			if(PlayerCivilization(player[0]) == CIVILIZATION_TYPE[i]) {
				GrantAdvance(player[0], CIVILIZATION_ADVANCE[i]);
			}
		}
	}
}