Director of Research Debate Thread

[Method]

the debate for director of research.

i don't have a speech right now, but are there any questions?
also, do you have any problems with the way the research department is currently run? any concerns you have could be dealt with if i'm re-elected.

[GeneralTacticus]

What techs would you particularly favour researching (i.e. Explore, Build, etc.)?

[Lemmy]

who are the candidates?

[GeneralTacticus]

TKG, TKG and TKG.

[Mr. President]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
TKG, TKG and TKG.

Okay, TKG, why should I vote for you and not for TKG or TKG?

[AdamTG02]

Thanks to TKG for starting this thread. I believe TKG and I have significantly different styles of play, and that these styles would influence the technological path of our faction. TKG has already used his power as Director of Research to break ties, deciding on Industrial Base over Secrets of the Human Brain -- and, in my opinion, this was the wrong decision.

If elected, I will prioritize technologies that fit within the ideology of the Peacekeepers. This means primarily Explore and Discover techs, such as Ethical Calculus, Centauri Empathy, and Planetary Networks. Furthermore, I believe that a concerted effort should be made to get Secrets of the Human Brain before the University. This may be unsuccesssful, and I recognize the odds are against us. Nevertheless, it would do us more honor as a faction to try to uncover these Secrets first, than never to try at all.

If elected, I would do everything in my power to get the deliberate sense of the citizens before making a decision. This means I would first poll for a first choice tech, then for a backup tech -- because those who voted for the first choice tech that got in have just as much right to be heard. Furthermore, if the polls are run at the same time, people aren't sure which tech will win the primary one -- and thus are forced to choose between voting for their first choice, or hoping their first choice wins #1 and voting for their second choice.

When necessary, I will be up front with the Commissioner and ask for more time before the next turnchat. However, I don't anticipate this happening often -- DBTS has advocated a slower, more democratic process, along with other members of the former P4. In any case, I would be up front with the Commissioner about how much time I thought a democratic process would require, and when necessary I would amend my schedule.

What role do I imagine parties playing in this election? Hopefully, not a lot. In my mind, a party is something one chooses to identify with, not a group one expects the loyalty of. I choose to identify with the Exploration and Discovery Party; TKG has no party affiliation. I am a member of the EDP because I envision a roleplay-based, curiosity-driven style of play which I wanted to advocate in this Democracy game -- one which put science that served the needs of knowledge and social justice before that which provides military power and economic infrastructure. I founded the EDP because I believed, and still believe, that others share that vision, and I wanted to associate with some of them.

Ultimately, parties are guides for the electorate. They allow voters to identify candidates who hold specific views, and allow candidates to identify themselves with specific platforms. However, they are not, at their best, a straightjacket, or a machine to ensure victory. You should take my party into account when casting your vote, but I hope that party is only one of many factors.

[DeathByTheSword]

ok too both candidate how will you inform and advice the people about the techs? will there be explanations about the techs before we choose them or only what they can do? how do you see that this departement can be of great importentes for the people?

[Method]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
What techs would you particularly favour researching (i.e. Explore, Build, etc.)?

i want to get straight to industrial automation as soon as possible so we can get crawlers out, and to make the wealth choice in social engineering. after that, i'd like to make sure we get the restriction lifting techs (gene splicing, environmental economics, ecological engineering), and then synthetic fossil fuels.

dbts, i'm not really sure what you mean

[Method]

also, i want to sidetrack from industrial automation beeline for a bit and go for doctrine :mobility. we need rovers.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
TKG has already used his power as Director of Research to break ties, deciding on Industrial Base over Secrets of the Human Brain -- and, in my opinion, this was the wrong decision.

why was it the wrong desision? that's what i wanted myself, and the only posts i saw said "please pick base". so i did.

[AdamTG02]

In my opinion, Industrial Base can wait -- one of the main arguments for getting it early is so that we can go into Free Market, and that would nix our exploration and pod-popping until we could build a bunch of probes.

Secrets, however, will give us a free tech, if and only if we get to it first. To a large extent, though, I'm simply enamored of the concept -- to understand consciousness, the reason why I can be aware of the words on this screen simply because of light hitting my retina and electric/chemical impulses moving through my brain. It seems less mundane than the work of building a stable economy -- after all, there we would simply be repeating the achivements of Old Earth. With Secrets, whether we succeed or fail in the race to be first, we are attempting to discover something new.

With neither Secrets nor Ethical Calculus (for the efficiency gains of Democracy, which would make upping the research rate profitable) being priorities of TKG, I felt that it was important to speak up about these. Industrial Automation is not the only tech that can be used to great effect -- Centauri Empathy, with a Green Economy, might give us a huge force of worms to guard our colony pods, harvest planetpearls, and pop all remaining Unity pods. The difference here once again is that it is most profitable only if we act first -- because the first one to pop the pod wins the prize, whether it's valuable data or worms to teach our troops how to use their flame guns. The urgency is less, but the principle is similar.

Industrial Automation does promise a whole bunch of resources flowing into our cities -- but the AI is not smart enough to take advantage of crawlers in any case. We have nothing to fear from competition there -- although it would, granted, help us significantly in the race for the seven early SPs. To me, though, prioritizing Automation at the expense of other techs implies that the ethical and scientific discoveries possible on this new world are less important than the building up of infrastructure and of wealth. That's something I disagree with, although I can see the arguments for that side.

Rather than playing Lal like Morgan, I'd like to play Lal like Lal, and see what results. We may not get quite as high a score, but how much time will we spend admiring ourr score in the hall of fame? It's the journey that matters, not the destination. That's just my opinion, of course.

One last thing, before I forget: DBTS, I'd be happy to give reports on what I would consider the social and cultural effects of researching a given technology. I hadn't thought of the idea myself, although I'd considered using that kind of issue to argue for or against specific techs. But you can consider yourself the originator of this idea: If elected, I will give a paragraph-sized report on each tech under consideration, telling what led us to this line of research, l what we can expect from it (which is a role-playing view, so may or may not be accurate), and what social effects researching such a thing would likely have. (I.E. Will to Power is going to make people much more self-assured and assertive, while Centauri Empathy would make people more introspective and sympathetic, and Planetary Networks would just spawn a lot of ACDG-esque recreational groups.

Sound good?

[Method]

Originally posted by AdamTG02
In my opinion, Industrial Base can wait -- one of the main arguments for getting it early is so that we can go into Free Market, and that would nix our exploration and pod-popping until we could build a bunch of probes.

Industrial base does not allow free market. i feel it's important not only for synthmetal armour, but also because it leads to indutrial automation (for wealth). i dont' want to go free market early on, and i never have.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Secrets, however, will give us a free tech, if and only if we get to it first. To a large extent, though, I'm simply enamored of the concept -- to understand consciousness, the reason why I can be aware of the words on this screen simply because of light hitting my retina and electric/chemical impulses moving through my brain. It seems less mundane than the work of building a stable economy -- after all, there we would simply be repeating the achivements of Old Earth. With Secrets, whether we succeed or fail in the race to be first, we are attempting to discover something new.

that's all well and good from an RP view of things, but if you read the turn report you'll notice the university already discovered secrets

Originally posted by AdamTG02
With neither Secrets nor Ethical Calculus (for the efficiency gains of Democracy, which would make upping the research rate profitable) being priorities of TKG, I felt that it was important to speak up about these. Industrial Automation is not the only tech that can be used to great effect -- Centauri Empathy, with a Green Economy, might give us a huge force of worms to guard our colony pods, harvest planetpearls, and pop all remaining Unity pods. The difference here once again is that it is most profitable only if we act first -- because the first one to pop the pod wins the prize, whether it's valuable data or worms to teach our troops how to use their flame guns. The urgency is less, but the principle is similar.

Ethical calculus was one of my priorities earlier, but many people didn't like that idea for some reason . i also don't see us getting centauri empathy this term, though it is a good tech for the empath guild, and green would be a nice boost.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Industrial Automation does promise a whole bunch of resources flowing into our cities -- but the AI is not smart enough to take advantage of crawlers in any case. We have nothing to fear from competition there -- although it would, granted, help us significantly in the race for the seven early SPs.

are you suggesting we don't need to research indus auto because the AI sucks so bad that we can beat it even without crawlers?

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Rather than playing Lal like Morgan, I'd like to play Lal like Lal, and see what results. We may not get quite as high a score, but how much time will we spend admiring ourr score in the hall of fame? It's the journey that matters, not the destination. That's just my opinion, of course.

fine. who said anything about playing like morgan though? crawlers are important regardless of the faction.

Originally posted by AdamTG02
One last thing, before I forget: DBTS, I'd be happy to give reports on what I would consider the social and cultural effects of researching a given technology. I hadn't thought of the idea myself, although I'd considered using that kind of issue to argue for or against specific techs. But you can consider yourself the originator of this idea: If elected, I will give a paragraph-sized report on each tech under consideration, telling what led us to this line of research, l what we can expect from it (which is a role-playing view, so may or may not be accurate), and what social effects researching such a thing would likely have. (I.E. Will to Power is going to make people much more self-assured and assertive, while Centauri Empathy would make people more introspective and sympathetic, and Planetary Networks would just spawn a lot of ACDG-esque recreational groups.

Sound good?

oooh, i get it now. thanks adam

[GeneralTacticus]

EDIT: Crossposted with TKG.

[Darkness' Edge]

Originally posted by TKG
also, i want to sidetrack from industrial automation beeline for a bit and go for doctrine :mobility. we need rovers.

I'd already voted for you, but this just increases my support.

As a candidate for DoPO, I agree that it is vital that we get this upgrade ASAP.

Adam - just a word of advice. Because there was a turnchat this morning, you might want to go read the turnlog and check the new save before you put your foot in it.

[AdamTG02]

that's all well and good from an RP view of things, but if you read the turn report you'll notice the university already discovered secrets

Adam - just a word of advice. Because there was a turnchat this morning, you might want to go read the turnlog and check the new save before you put your foot in it.

Thanks for the heads-up -- it's what I was afraid would happen. We couldn't have gotten Secrets even if we had researched straight to it from the beginning (which would only be possible by getting techs from pods to change the remaining techs offered). TKG, you were right all along.

Ethical Calculus is now my number 1 preferred tech, for Democracy's Efficiency. RP-wise, we caan certainly hope to trade with Zakh for his Secrets. (Though I fear that he'll be even more secretive than I'm used to on Thinker.) Alternately, research Secrets on our own and go for Empathy -- but the urgency is gone.

The reason I mentioned FM and crawlers as the arguments for Industrial Base are that Synthmetal Armor is only useful against other factions, none of which we've yet encountered, and the Merchant Exchange seems to be behind the Weather Paradigm and the Human Genome Project in terms of what SPs have been discussed. (Then again, that might be because we have the prereqs for those.)

By playing like Morgan, what I mean is prioitizing economic infrastructure (crawlers and Energy Banks) over quality-of-life improvements such as Children's Creches. Building infrastructure may give us more of everything in the long run, but to some extent I'm focusing on the shot-run gains -- the immediate reality -- and prioritizng what I see as most important.

About not needing crawlers, my point was that, unlike with Secrets, we are not competing with other factions to get crawlers out first. The chance to build a crawler fleet wil always be there. Now that we can't get Secrets first, though, it loses some of it's appeal. As I said, I would probably advocate Ethical Calculus -- but I'd be much more receptive to arguments for other techs, as Democracy also would not be going anywhere (though the RP zealot in me screams for Democracy ASAP). I was surprised, though, looking at th tech tree, to see how close Industrial Automation was, though. I usually get it only in the second century, but it looks very much obtainable in the first, with directed research.

Once we get a crawler fleet going, it will be interesting for me, because I've never played a game with as many crawlers as it seems multiplayer players use. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[Method]

well now i guess i'll outline my priorities here now

first of all, i'd like doctrine: mobility. however, if we use the reverse-engineer the probe team "cheat" (is it a cheat?) planetary networks is my choice because mobility is unnecessary and we can pick it up later from an AI.

then:

1. industrial economics
2. industrial automation
3. ethical calculus
4. gene splicing

of course, i realise that they won't all be available every time, so ethical calculus may come first. lacking any of these, the secrets, and applied physics are good goals.
if we meet an AI, then i would choose applied physics, high energy chemistry, and nonlinear mathematics so we can defend ourselves.

[Method]

****WARNING! OFF TOPIC POST AHEAD****

Originally posted by AdamTG02 Once we get a crawler fleet going, it will be interesting for me, because I've never played a game with as many crawlers as it seems multiplayer players use. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

i don't know if you'd consider this a "lot" of crawlers, and i certainly don't play MP, but here . condensors and mines crawled, all the rest i work.

[Maniac]

Bah! All those ugly maglev tubes! I suggest restricting ourselves to building tubes between our bases and over squares often visited by crawlers (farm/condenser tiles).

[moomin]

The tubing seems excessive, yes. This ain't civ. One of the things I really hated with Civ3 was that they brought back that brain-dead cover-everyting-in-rail system.

That said, on a more general and OT note, I think it's really fun and exciting to have an actual choice between two knowledgeable and engaged candidates. Perhaps some day all elections will be like this. In the meantime, this was the one choice I had to sweat over.

[Maniac]

Why don't you join elections yourself then? That'll give us more choice!

[moomin]

I can't be arsed, really. I cruise these fora for relaxation, not more work. Needs must.

I'm getting all my current MP cravings satisfied by NWN anyway, so that takes priority for when I'm not at work.

[AdamTG02]

Priorities:

1) Ethical Calculus
2) Planetary Networks
3) Centauri Empathy (via Secrets of the Human Brain)
4) Industrial Automation (via Industrial Economics)
5) Doctrine: Mobility, if we don't have it yet

That said, I recognize the limits of detailed plans for the future -- the electorate may have a different opinion, setting your beeline back several steps. Beelining neglects whatever important techs are not on the path of the beeline. Also, a valued tech may require a tech that is ideologically questionable. (For example, Intellectual Integrity requires Doctrine: Loyalty; Eudaimonia requires The Will to Power. In both of these cases, a more "enlightened" (in my opinion) philosophical view is expounded by those questioning a questionable view. Because of the social forces involved in our faction's researching either The Will to Power or Doctrine: Loyalty, I do not advocate our researching them ourselves, but rather trading with other factions for them.)

[Method]

come on guys, you're voting on my abilities as director of reseach not on my terraforming . besides, i didn't have much else for my formers to do at that point, and i was pretty much neglecting them for my overseas anti-cult/spartan campaigns

[DeathByTheSword]

Adam your are the head/member of the EDP and you put mobility last? why is that? I am looking forward on those reports over new techs IF you get elected!

TKG i am still waiting for a response on my question you finally got?!
btw this one is the most fun to follow (the election I mean)

[AdamTG02]

Mobility is last for two reasons: First, I want to explore the social and cultural techs we now have the opportunity for, such as Ethical Calculus and Centauri Empathy. Second, I believe we'll be able to get it fairly easily from another faction, if we don't get it from a pod or artifact.

For a while, I anticipate we can use probes in place of rovers, although that leaves us more open to mindworm attack.

However, as I said, it's a tentative list. I'm not wedded to it.

[Method]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
ok too both candidate how will you inform and advice the people about the techs? will there be explanations about the techs before we choose them or only what they can do?

yes dbts, if there is enough demand for this, of course i will do it

[Darkness' Edge]

Originally posted by AdamTG02
Mobility is last for two reasons: First, I want to explore the social and cultural techs we now have the opportunity for, such as Ethical Calculus and Centauri Empathy. Second, I believe we'll be able to get it fairly easily from another faction, if we don't get it from a pod or artifact.

For a while, I anticipate we can use probes in place of rovers, although that leaves us more open to mindworm attack.

However, as I said, it's a tentative list. I'm not wedded to it.

I'm rather thankful TKG's winning, then.
The defence ministry needs rovers.

[History Guy]

Adam's ignorance of the Doctrine of Mobility is disconcerting. It seems to me vital to our survival on Planet at this time. I think that, if for no other reason, we need TKG simply so he can research it.

[AdamTG02]

I've posted my concession in the election thread. Basically, I say that in my preliminary list of priorities, I drastically underestimated the imoortance of Mobility.

Congratulations, TKG. I have no doubt you'll continue to do a great job.