How make Republic pay off?

[planetfall]

My games have migrated from go Republic ASAP to "Can I ever to Republic"?

What should I be doing differently?

Standard environment:
Regent
6 civs: Eng, Russia, Rome, Greece, Random {China}
Std map
Mostly continents
Middle age
Middle tempature zone
Playing Germany.

Here is how current game is playing out:
Stayed deposit thru Ancient Era, then switched to Monarchy. Non-religious so gave up 6 turns to change govt. By middle of Middle Ages gave up to extortion of 4 techs to Greece and 3 techs to Rome. This kept me out of war. {Rome had legionaires too quickly and is a neighboring civ, so early rush was out}. Never before have I just given away so many techs just for peace. Here I was following a suggest of Catt to not jump the gun too quickly to warfare. I managed to keep the peace and was 2nd civ in score and power behind China. MPP were not yet available. I did not have enough happiness buildings to switch to Republic.

I was just wondering if I should switch to Republic when China declared war. Opps, I needed help. Since China was the big bully, I was able to get a Military Alliance with all the other civs vs China. Since China was strong, and all the rest of us were weak to average, we did not make much headway in 20 turns. And so, renew alliance, renew alliance. Well after about 4 renews, China was beginning to really feel the impact. Surprisingly Rome and Greece did not go for the territory grab game. They were at war, but not aggressively. A few strikes and that was it.

I don't know if this was a factor. I did not have ROP with Rome or Greece but would allow them to pass on way to China without contest.
Before I finally made peace with China I verified I no longer had MA or MPP with any other civ. Hoped it would help not take a reputation hit. Don't really think it helped much. During this long World vs China war, China went from 40 cities to 6. Rome settled in one city area, and they left the rest of the area to me. Weirdly, there is an area between Rome/Greece and China, about 5 tiles wide that is not being settled. Very, very strange.

Geologically this was an interesting game as all 6 civs were on one huge connected land mass. The other continent island started getting cities in the late Middle Ages. Everyone has some cities there. I think I have about 6. But they are all 1 or 2 shield cities. I was thinking this was because of government type. I saved the game, switched to Republic. {8 *@#%!! turns }. Net gain was only 30 gpt. There was no gain on island continent cities.

I can't stay in Republic because now that my power is approaching the 50% level, Rome and Greece are itching for war. Best trades offered are spices for luxury+60gpt. Yes, 60 gpt. What am I brain dead?

Perhaps, I accepted Rome offer because 1) they were furious, 2) most of my production was for wealth, 3) military is "strong" but mainly infantry, 4) panzers are 2.3 techs away.

My military has been between average and weak most of the game. I build up to average, let slide to weak, ..repeat, repeat. It is only now near the end of the Industrial age I have a strong military. Defensive of course, so I can build mostly panzers once they are available.

Since I don't see how I can stay in Republic for even 12 turns before Rome and/or Greece fire off an attack, I reverted to a previous saved year where I was still Monarchy and avoided 8 turn penalty for Republic switch. Changing about 6 cities production to artillery/infantry.

Questions:

1. Is Republic more valuable than land mass and 2 extra luxuries and a second iron?

2. How can I make island continent with some value?
It seems too far away to pull off a FP move. I have built: lib, temple, and starting courthouses. Most tiles have RR but no present gain to mine as increase is all red.

3. Is it bad to stay in Monarchy forever?


Thank you for your ideas.

-- PF

[Wormwood]

Wow, that's a lot to digest. First off, you stated that you had a lot of cities building wealth. That's bad. Wealth is only moderately viable once you have economics, and for you not viable at all. Those cities should be building military units, because, given how much everyone has been bullying you, you need a much larger military. If you can't get a GA right after switching to Republic, then hold it off until all of your more powerful cities have a marketplace/aqueduct/courthouse. Those are the structures, along with an FP, that make Republic doable. What I would is this: Have half of my larger cities building those important economic buildings, plus any cultural buildings, while the other half builds mil. units. When one of the economy cities finishes all of it's buildings, switch it to military, and switch one of the military cities to economic. This should put you in a strong economic/military position in a reasonable amount of time. Then you could initiate calculated wars against your neighbors. Figure out the purpose of the war, i.e. territory,resource,luxuries, and figure out the means to do so with the fastest and most decisive possible strike. You cannot afford the war weariness. These wars should also have a decent chance of generating a GL, so you can move your palace to a location where it will help with corruption and waste the most. Good luck!

[Theseus]

Can you post a SAV?

[vmxa1]

Is it bad to stay in Monarchy, IMO yes. I would not even go to it in the first place as a non religous civ. I would bee line for Republic and say there. War will not be a problem in terms of WW, if they start it. Wormwoods advice on building more troops is right on.

[Ribannah]

Change your government to Republic way before you enter the Middle Ages.

[planetfall]

Theseus-- I'll figure out what saves to make available with a description of what each save represents.

Wormwood-- Know it is a lot to digest. Building because needed techs to get panzers to go on offensive.

Have economics but did not switch to Republic early because in long war with China.

Military is about 180-200 infantry. This seems to be the limit of useful defensive units. I wonder if bullying may be because I have not pushed back before.

GA already hit and gone. Used GA to build: markets/courthouses/police. Come to think about it, since China war has ended I do need to move palace. I used GL to build FP.

Other than land, there are no good resources or luxuries in close proximity to borders

xmxa1-- forgot WW was not a problem if they start it. No problem getting Rome to declare war. Greece only needed 2 luxuries and 1 tech to join MA vs Rome.


Ribannah-- agreed need Republic at least in early Middle Ages. Maybe I was just too worried about WW. Agh, we play and learn, right? Well at least sometimes we learn.

-- PF

[Hagbart]

Republic is a great government if you are in peace and have a decent amount of roads and irrigation. It will increase your income very much!

[Gwylim]

well opinions differ...
For me Republic is also not a very appreciable government. Normally i go as fast as possible to Monarchy and then to Democracy -> There i really see a difference but the little times i switched from Monarchy to Republic i didnt saw a reasonable increase in revenue, but several unhappy citizens, not to speak about making war. but perhaps i switched to early and didnt tried at an optimal point, but anyway, i made good games without Republic: My present Game is on Deity Level and since the Great Library i have build ALL GW (last one was Hoover)(except shakespears theatre which is not worth the price IMO) and ALL of my 45 cities have a factory and my treasury is around 10000gp, so you see that you dont really need to switch to Republic, dont know why VMXA1 advises to do never switch to monarchy, because you will loose several rounds of wealth and production waiting for republic, but like I told in the beginning: Opinions and much more personal game-style can be very different

[Catt]

I'll echo Wormwood: That's a lot to digest. But, on a couple of broad points:

Originally posted by planetfall
Stayed deposit thru Ancient Era, then switched to Monarchy. Non-religious so gave up 6 turns to change govt. By middle of Middle Ages gave up to extortion of 4 techs to Greece and 3 techs to Rome. This kept me out of war. {Rome had legionaires too quickly and is a neighboring civ, so early rush was out}. Never before have I just given away so many techs just for peace. Here I was following a suggest of Catt to not jump the gun too quickly to warfare. I managed to keep the peace and was 2nd civ in score and power behind China.

My only guess on where that advice could come from is the "Winning Early" thread in which I advised that giving in to AI demands is often the right move, especially in the early game. But let me expand on that point. An AI demand seems to often come when an imbalance of power, particularly military power, is plainly evident. A first demand should cause you to check you military situation, and you status compared to other civs (through the military advisor). It is my preference to maintain at least an "average" military compared to all nearby foes -- with an average military (as opposed to a weak military), I am much more comfortable turning down AI demands. In a situation where you are facing repeated demands, and are not able to build up a strong deterrant force for some reason, you might consider trading the techs away shortly after you get them assuming the AIs have something that would be useful to you. Better to trade for a luxury, an optional tech you bypassed, or even just gold and maps rather than having it extorted from you a few turns later.

On switching to Republic generally: Republic is, IMHO, much more powerful than Monarchy - its only disadvantages being the susceptibility to war weariness, the upkeep costs of an army, and the happiness effects missing due to no military police. An adequate infrastructure and trading relationships can offset all but the war weariness problem. A thoroughly roaded empire, combined with marketplaces, will more often than not produce more gold per turn than is required as troop maintenance under Republic. A FP up and running can also be very important, depending on the size and sprawl of your empire. I still play in your former mode of "Get to Republic ASAP" unless compelling, and unusual, circumstances exist to cause me to reconsider.

In your specific game, the extended warfare with China might not have been doable under a Republic -- but you might have been able to fight a shorter war. It is my practice to almost never renew a military alliance - 20 turns with an ally is enough, and I want the flexibility to make peace if I must. Refusing to renew the MA doesn't automatically cause your allies to make peace with the enemy. Without a look at the saved game (in other words speaking entirely without specific facts or knowledge ) - I probably would have tried to fight a shorter ware with China and get into a Republic sooner.

Also on your specific game - it may not be important for you to consider a switch now -- you have a huge standing army of 180 - 200 infantry on a standard map. Even though infantry are better defenders than attackers, that large a force (together with a continued stream of reinforcements coming from cities, instead of wealth) could probably conquer the remainder of the world. A switch to Republic might not be necessary at this point, panzers or not. Again without seeing a sav and just based on the facts in your post, I might forget completely about government switches and just go an a rampage. You don't need to worry about Rome's and Greece's technology advancement or economic power if you're taking their cities and enslaving their citizens

Catt

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by Gwylim
dont know why VMXA1 advises to do never switch to monarchy, because you will loose several rounds of wealth and production waiting for republic

Not if you get The Republic first.

[vmxa1]

Well actually I did not advise them to not go into Monarchy, I only said that I bypass it. The reason is simple, I am at war when I am at that stage where I make the choice of which path to follow. If I get to point where I can do either and I am not religous, I do not want to make two gov switches. Unless you would want to stay in Monarchy all the way to Demo and that would be very painful. I save the lost production, which would come right while I am at war. It is not so much an early war, nearly so. As an aside, I likely will have the GL, so I will not even have to research Monarchy. It is not an iron clad rule as I may find that I have the prereq techs for Monarchy and not for Republic and therefore the path is shorter for one than the other and I may switch up. So unless you would argue that Mon is better than Rep, you can see why I do it.

[planetfall]

Sorry ran out of time, but forgot and relearning some important play concepts:

1. WW is not enough reason not to go Republic as it only starts after 20T and kicks in after 60+ T.

2. If switching to republic at the same time empire has expanded and you need to remember:
A. corruption increase will be offset by income increase
B. need a GL to move palace {if FP already is in place}
C. may have a short cash flow problem until build up city strength in new empire areas

3. Don't continue Mil Alliances more than 1 turn, and only do it then if you have a weak military.

4. If you have a strong military, you can still switch to republic while in joint military alliance. Just be careful to scale back/stop offensive moves during anarchy. This was a surprising lesson. I thought some of the other civs would take advange of my anarchy to attack me during that time, but did not happen.



On the other hand, if you don't want a modern era game, here are the advantages of going monarchy and conducting long wars:

1. other civs will be forced to either monarchy or communism as they can't handle WW either.

2. tech race will be slowed. {It is now 1953 and no one has flight yet. Only 3 GL even with constant warfare.}

3. Warfare is primary:
Land-- calvary & infantry & riflemen
Sea-- frigate & a few ironclads

4. Other civs get tired of fighting you and tend to pick on each other a bit.


Where is the game now?
Clean up. Got Greece in an alliance so Rome had a 2 front war after Rome demanded one more concession. Rome is down to 2 cities on island continent and no longer on big continent. Russia got PO'ed when I told them to respect borders. They thought they would be safe as England was a nice inbetween civ and I would be busy with powerful Rome. However, England also decided to make her move after I had just loaded my Galleons to deal with Russia. Oh, no need for Galleons. England and Russia departed in peace. Greece, well they just lost their sole source of rubber and about 1/4th of cities on big continent.

With only about 100 turns left, no opportunity to get high score game. I did switch to republic but don't have strong enough base to up research beyond 0-10%,
even with luxuries at 0%. Probably will finish out game just to relearn how to deal with corruption.

Considering replaying part from China's first declaration of war and seeing what will happen if I A) don't renew alliances, and B) try to switch to republic earlier.

Fairly well designed game, about the time I think I can coast some "old" aspect jumps up to bite me. This game it was corruption and late government change.


-- PF

[BillChin]

Some general notes: Republic is good if a player has three or more luxuries and marketplaces in core cities. Otherwise Monarchy with the three military police to help with happiness is more viable.

Later in the game, experienced players tend to avoid a long period of anarchy. Rarely are the benefits of a new government worth it. On Regent, War Weariness is not too bad, but on higher difficulty levels, it is more serious.

As for corruption, the best way to deal with it is to limit the number of cities in your empire. A well-centered Palace and Forbidden Palace help a great deal. Courthouses, WLTKD, Police Stations all help. However, nothing helps cities way out in a very large empire. Again, an empire with fewer cities makes corruption easier to deal with.
- Bill

[planetfall]

Originally posted by BillChin
Some general notes: Republic is good if a player has three or more luxuries and marketplaces in core cities. Otherwise Monarchy with the three military police to help with happiness is more viable.

Again, an empire with fewer cities makes corruption easier to deal with.
- Bill

Bill--
Good summary of dealing with corruption.

I only had 3 luxuries and so it was not too painful to stay in monarchy. Others civs did not want to trade fairly so I could get 4 luxuries. If I would have been able to get 4, republic would have been a no brainer. {I rarely get 4 or more luxuries until late in game.}

I just reviewed the threads on corruption as that was my biggest concern. Now I will be paying more attention to OCN so I know when AI will switch from expansion to domination.

I tried to pick up the corrected corruption calculator, but zip file would not open. Can't find thread where it was. Guess will have to try another day.

A big part of my corruption problem was that initially Palace and FP were not too far away and so had large overlap in cities OCN calculation.

Thanks for the comments.

--PF

[vmxa1]

I understand that corruption impacts productivity, but I will take it, if that means I have a lot more land. So the distance city is not producing much, it is a buffer from attack at least and makes it easier to attack them as I am closer than I would otherwise be. Not to mention that I now have an increased chance chance for resources and luxs. To an extent it is a zero sum game, so if I have it they don't, in terms of land.

[Catt]

Originally posted by planetfall
Sorry ran out of time, but forgot and relearning some important play concepts: [. . . . ]

Remember not to fall into the trap of thinking there are absolute hard and fast rules for all games and all game situations. The most important human advantage is to think and plan, taking into account all available information. A thorough knowledge of game concepts and how they interplay may generate a number of rules of thumb - but rules of thumb should never replace analytical thought.

Just one recent example - in my previous post I stated that "I still play in your former mode of 'Get to Republic ASAP' unless compelling, and unusual, circumstances exist to cause me to reconsider" -- my most recent game I experienced what I thought were both unusual and compelling circumstances, and I decided to consciously shoot for Monarchy over Republic, even though the propspect of war (and therefore war weariness) was essentially nil -- I'm not sure it was the right decision, mind you , but it was an example of departing from a rule of thumb.

Catt

[planetfall]

Catt--

Agreed. Still learning. I had never stayed in Monarchy long, so was interested in expereincing game play if delayed migration to Republic. The concept is "Match government type and FP/Palace location to current game situation". The decision to stay Monarch was based on game play at beginning of China war, and in retrospect was not best decision to stick with for 80 turns. I remembered decision but forgot to regularly evaluate my decision based on game play. That's whay I am now in Republic.

What was shocking about corruption research today was:
1. Forget editor, corruption rates for Monarchy and Republic are identical. Even though Republic is supposed to have less corruption than Monarchy.
2. if run with corruption edited to 100%, you need to very carefully decide on the OCN to use as when you get about 150% above the OCN, your corruption will stay about 95%, regardless of courthouses etc.
3. Unverified, but sounds like editing additional improvements, i.e. cathedrals, to "reduce corruption" may not have any effect at all.

--PF

[planetfall]

Decided not to post this game. I made too many mistakes. On end of game play:

1550 bc - cities
china 6
Rome 5
Russia 4
others 3

1200bc
China 8
Rome 5
Russia 5
Greece 6
Germany 5

1000bc
China 8
Rome 7
Greece 7
Russia 6
Germany 5
Eng 4

450bc
China 14
Greece 10
Rome 10
Russia 9
Germany 8
Eng 6

10ad
China 17
Greece 12
Rome 13
Russia 9
German 13
Eng 7

So to answer my own question, what were mistakes:

1. Too slow city development. How is China getting so many cities so fast?

2. Undecided if go for horsemen rush or builder and so stuck in nowhere land.

3. Cities too big before switch to republic so require more infrastructure.

4. ONC was 24. {May be default but much lower than 40 used to playing}.

5. Trying to build settler farms of size 5-6 cities. Do pump out settlers faster, but time to get set up hurts too much.

-- PF

[BillChin]

Originally posted by planetfall
10ad
China 17
Greece 12
Rome 13
Russia 9
German 13
Eng 7

So to answer my own question, what were mistakes:

1. Too slow city development. How is China getting so many cities so fast?

2. Undecided if go for horsemen rush or builder and so stuck in nowhere land.

3. Cities too big before switch to republic so require more infrastructure.

4. ONC was 24. {May be default but much lower than 40 used to playing}.

5. Trying to build settler farms of size 5-6 cities. Do pump out settlers faster, but time to get set up hurts too much.

-- PF

1) 17 cities by 10 A. D. is not that many. The odds are that the map is mostly settled by now. It may be the luck of the land, good terrain, a free settler from a hut, war between other neighbors.

2) It is generally a good idea to decide fairly early upon war or expansion. For expansion a granary in the capital or the first colony city helps a great deal. On Regent level 600 B. C. is a decent time for attacking with swordsmen, at 10 A. D. a force of 20 attackers is decent, with a mix of horsemen and swordsmen. Around 600 A. D. is a decent timetable for attacking with Knights. Again, these times are for Regent, on higher levels, move the timetable up.

3) Not much you can do. Maybe waiting until marketplaces are built before switching helps. Many players skip Monarchy and go straight to Republic, especially if an early war is not in the play book.

4) No comment.

5) Having a lot of settler farms late may help where there is a lot of open land. However, in this game the map seems full with the player having 13 cities. A single granary in the capital can usually crank out 12 settlers before you set up these additional cities, so it is not recommended.

* The game looks winnable. You are in second or third coming into the A. D. years. This can be common on higher difficulty levels, depending on your style of play.
- Bill

[planetfall]

Originally posted by BillChin


1) 17 cities by 10 A. D. is not that many. The odds are that the map is mostly settled by now. It may be the luck of the land, good terrain, a free settler from a hut, war between other neighbors.

In followup game they are also ahead in cities, but only by 5-6 and that seems reasonable.

2) It is generally a good idea to decide fairly early upon war or expansion. For expansion a granary in the capital or the first colony city helps a great deal. On Regent level 600 B. C. is a decent time for attacking with swordsmen, at 10 A. D. a force of 20 attackers is decent, with a mix of horsemen and swordsmen. Around 600 A. D. is a decent timetable for attacking with Knights. Again, these times are for Regent, on higher levels, move the timetable up.

Thanks for the measuring points, they match my experience.

3) Not much you can do. Maybe waiting until marketplaces are built before switching helps. Many players skip Monarchy and go straight to Republic, especially if an early war is not in the play book.

Current game cities were kept small so able to switch and build marketplaces as needed. I just finished ancient era. Yes I should have skipped Monarchy.

4) No comment.

I understand. At least corruption is back to 100% instead of lower. Working on balance between expansion and military and government now. Will go back to corruption later.

5) Having a lot of settler farms late may help where there is a lot of open land. However, in this game the map seems full with the player having 13 cities. A single granary in the capital can usually crank out 12 settlers before you set up these additional cities, so it is not recommended.

Makes sense

* The game looks winnable. You are in second or third coming into the A. D. years. This can be common on higher difficulty levels, depending on your style of play.
- Bill

It was. I am normally 2..4th in AD and only pull ahead in late industrial or early modern.

I really appreciate your advice. Thanks again.

-- PF

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by planetfall


5. Trying to build settler farms of size 5-6 cities. Do pump out settlers faster, but time to get set up hurts too much.

-- PF

Thats only usefull after the start if ever. You should kick out a settler from your first city the within in or two turns of that city hiting a pop of three. I have tried going to four and that was just a waste of time. More population means you will get settlers a bit faster from the city but it wastes a lot of time getting there when you could have had TWO cities pumping out settlers and money for tech.

Don't wait till the population hits three to start a settler. Start it as soon as you can reach three the turn the settler will be produced or maybe just before or after. After is better than before most of the time because before wastes shields and they all count at the start of the game.

[planetfall]

Ethelred--
Good info. I was vascillating between size 3-4 for settlers production. Size 4 seem a bit better in production rate but takes 1 turn longer to get there.

What I have been trying is
city1-- size 3 -> settler
city2-- size 3 ->settler
city3-- size 4 ->settler

Actually I may have build order wrong. My standard build order is:
1. worker
2. warrior
3. settler {if possible}


BillChin
Maybe I am missing something basic. As I reread your post are you trying to tell me that at Regent and above you need a military campaign before 600AD?

-- PF

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by planetfall

Actually I may have build order wrong. My standard build order is:
1. worker
2. warrior
3. settler {if possible}

-- PF

The worker is a big mistake especialy if you are doing that with your first city. You allready have a worker at that point and it only needs to improve two tiles for you to get settlers out at pop 3, three tiles if you go for pop 4. It costs all that time it took to get your pop up enough to produce the worker your don't yet need and it costs you all the goody huts a warrior could have found.

I do this

Warrior
Warrior
Warrior - if I have food bonus tile I may go for a settler at that point. On Emperor you must have at least one unit for military police duty and you have to watch out for civil disorder real carefully.

That first warrior goes out and explores. The second will to if I don't need a MP yet but that is for Monarch on down not for Emperor and the same should go for deity but I haven't played Deity. Normally its three warriors and then the first settler. Then another warrior to defend the new city or a barracks while the cities pop comes back up enough to produce a second settler.

I do usually play industrious civs but even when I don't I still wait a bit to produce a worker. They are needed especially with a non-industrious civ but they can wait till the capital has produced at least two settlers.

[planetfall]

Ethelred,

Good catch. I mis spoke. Standard build order is for 2nd city plus. For first city it is:
warrior {for exploration}
warrior {for exploration}
warrior/settler {if warrior for happiness}
settler/worker {settler if warrior previous, worker to connect cities} then for about 5 rounds:

military/improvement
settler

Improvements are only temple/barracks/granary. Everything else must wait. Barracks in first city always. Temple if bonus tiles and size is jumping to 4 or 5. Granary after 3 to 4 cities.

Good idea to wait for second worker after created 2 settlers.

-- PF

[BillChin]

Originally posted by planetfall

BillChin
Maybe I am missing something basic. As I reread your post are you trying to tell me that at Regent and above you need a military campaign before 600AD?

-- PF

NEED? No. There are many ways to win the game, many ways to enjoy the game. However, if conquest is the idea from the get-go it is often best to attack early. You may be able to find some of my old posts outlining opening conquest strategies. If not here are the basic outlines:

1) Warrior Gambit, decent on Regent, tough on Monarch, not recommended for Emperor. Send first two warriors together looking for an enemy city or settler to capture.

2) Swordsmen Conquest, good for all levels, but much tougher to pull off on Deity. Research Bronze, then Iron. Build 3 to 6 cities depending on map size and enemies. Build bunches of warriors. Barracks help, must have at least one to upgrade units. Turn down research after getting Iron Working to save gold. Hook up iron, upgrade warriors to swordsmen. Attack nearest enemy. (10 swordsmen suggested for novices.) If no iron use archers.

3) Combined arms, better for large maps where enemies are not so close. Build 8 to 15 cities. Build an attack force of about 20 units, mixed swordsmen and horsemen. Catapults help, especially if attacking Legionaires or Hoplites.

4) Knight Blitz, good for huge maps, or other situations with a lot of open land. Takes a bit of practice for novices to get the units, tech and gold all in place at the same time. Basic strategy is to build 10 to 20 cities. Build a large force of horsemen. Get Chivalry as cheaply as possible. Upgrade the horsemen to Knights. Attack in force. 20 Knights or more is recommended. At 80 gold per unit upgrade that is a lot of gold.

There are also conquest strategies in between these, such as attacking with five archers. The latter three openings are effective conquest openings at Emperor level and below, with Warrior Gambit being weak vs. the free units defending at that level.
- Bill

[planetfall]

BillChin--
Thanks.

I usually play std map and 5-7 civs with increased distance as normal setting allowed too easy conquest.

Thus, warrior gambit is out. If it is not the Romans, I go with combined rush. I haven't been able to get knights working because of 1) 1700 gold required and 2) closeness of cavalry.

But, going to try knights just for the fun of it. Because I missed in current game choice is either go back and replay or try with infantry. Inclination now is to try both so I can a real game comparision.



Later.

--PF