Why weren't troops upgraded

[OPD]

thats the thing about the internet things you say can be taken the wrong way when tone of voice and other means of communication are denied.

I end up sounding like an arsehole when I'm only playing around.

anyway with regard to the not upgrading the bottom line is that the orders thread should have been started sooner and should have stated the definate number of turns to be played.

I am at fault and I'm sorry especially to Red who if he had the time could have prevented this.

There is no question that the Wills WC's should hav been upgraded of course they should.

I've said before and I'll say it again I don't want to do chats w/o the SMC present so that things like this do not happen.

As Red didn't know he had to do 5 turns of orders I had to stand in and make the decisions. At tyre 2 WC's rather than 1 were upgraded as we could afford it. Although as Shiber kept getting disconected and gepap wasn't playing along I had to be SMC as well. I can handle immediate SMC stuff but can't look at the long term picture so when it came to it I decided that rather than upgrade the remaining WC's at Wills, to give the FM the money.

This is not a case of not following orders it is a case of bad judgement on my part the FM could have probably done a GPT deal instead and the WC's could have been upgraded so that the swords wouldn't have been lost. In the furture Red will be given enough notice to decide and hopefully the SMC or a deputy will be there to make sure something like this doesn't happen.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I am not saying anything was done wrong, just that this brings up a few more points the CoL fails to recognise. We can fix that with an amendment that will be quicker than the CC is able to write a new one.

The orders thread can be fixed as well. Both Shiber and myself have offered you our services to help organize it. If there is an order you want things in, let us know. I, personally liked all city stuff first, then workers, then Military. FAM and other things came when needed. It was easy to print the one post out and cross them off as they were done.

As far as the # of turns...well, that can be improved as well.

[OPD]

That would be great if I could print out all the orders I could cut down the time taken to do each turn considerably.

[UnOrthOdOx]

Is there an order you would like them in?

[OPD]

Economy
PW
CP
FM
IE
SMC

Cheers

[Aggie]

OPD, the SMC makes request to upgrade and then if there is money the upgrades happen. There was money and the money was available and the money went elsewhere to items not in the orders or items that were given lower priority in the orders(by the requestee). The thing is this, if a person makes plans based on something and that something doesn't take place plans should be stoped. This is most obvious in the SMC's plans which are based on us having certain troops I didn't want us charging Pesopolis with 3knights/horse+sword. When it came time to move and these conditions weren't met, the chat should have been stopped. My plan called for the upgrade of the horse and the 3chariots. Togas recalls in the chat that 3 units were upgraded, however of the 4 units designated only 1 was upgraded, so I suspect miscommunication was a serious problem and the people in the chat didn't realize(including you) that the units weren't upgraded. I also suspect this is way we didn't do a pure gpt deal for theology(even if more expensive, upgrading units is more important that a extra few gpt). I hope this was the reason and not "orders weren't given", because no other spending orders were given and yet that money was spent.
The fact is we need to fix this and perhaps the amendment will do it. By the way OPD i did PM and didn't get a response even though you had read the message. If I had recieved an I'll get back to you or any such message I would have waited, but since I recieved nothing I assumed you didn't know why they weren't upgraded either(not your fault, I give orders and watch every unit and sometimes I have to think what the plan was), thus I went to the people. Looking back I think you must have been very tired and not have seen the degree of upset this caused me, so I probably was a bit hasty, but if I hadn't of brought this to the public the amendment discussion wouldn't have started so there is something to be said for open forum discussions. This way the next prez won't make the same mistakes. OPD this thread is not meant as an insult. MWIA had a very similar discussion during one of our first turnchats and look how successful that term was in the end. Generally here is how this game works mistakes are made in the first chats, we learn and then we go on and do better and since we have 2 wonders already, you are already on an excellent path.
Aggie

[Aggie]

A suggestion, could we have the minsters chat room again where only ministers speak, it would make it much easier. Also opd i didn't see one of your repsonse when I made mine. One thing is I have already made plans based on the forces we have so I glad to inform everybody that we are fine militarily and we might turn this delay to our advantage. The plans I made call for bactra in 400,susa in 410/420 and tarsus in 430/440. I'll be more detailed when I have more time(but i have already done the math and it works).
Aggie

[Reddawg]

Well OPD I do commend you for giving the remainder of that money to the FM and not all to the SMC; I wouldn't have approved more than three units upgrade anyway. Who was it that requested the temple rushed? I really wish that hadn't gone through over the courthouses; but aie! It's all moot now, next turnchat will run seamlessly.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I did. Blame that one squarely on me. I had that temple as #1, courthouses as #2.

Why? Because I didn't like Rheims having control over one of the tiles in that cities radius. Put the pressure back on them where it belongs. And it was allot cheaper than the courthouses.

[OPD]

lol I was going to send you a nasty message last night saying that it was your fault that the WC's weren't upgraded as you should have been there to make sure they were but I thought I'd sleep on it first.
The upgrades in tyre sounded optional (thats why 2 were upgraded there) and so I assumed it was the same for Wills. Of course the reason they weren't upgraded wasn't because the orders wasn't given I just thought that the FM would need the money more.

You weren't in the chat all the time but if you were you'd be surprised with how much people hassled me all the time and repeatedly question things that I had already explained. Thats why a thread such as this which undermines my authority to carry out the turns pisses me off.
At one point the presidential body guard had to step in.

[OPD]

Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
I did. Blame that one squarely on me. I had that temple as #1, courthouses as #2.

Why? Because I didn't like Rheims having control over one of the tiles in that cities radius. Put the pressure back on them where it belongs. And it was allot cheaper than the courthouses.

I also pushed for this quite considerably but I stand by this decision. Rhiems is likely to be or have built a temple aswell and it may still take the land.

[Aro]

Originally posted by OPD
That would be great if I could print out all the orders I could cut down the time taken to do each turn considerably.

This is, definitively, an excellent idea. I'll do it in the next turchat.

[UnOrthOdOx]

If we get Opiadom equal on culture, we should be able to keep that land with our greater culture as a whole.

And I don't regret that decision one bit either.

(did a Hawk just push for rushing a temple!?!?! what is this world comming to?!?!)

[Aggie]

I know y'all don't want to here this and everybodies going to yell, but remember its my job as SMC to say this. How about after america we visit france. By that time we'll have many knights some elite looking for an enemy. Rheims and Chartes would fall quickly and our forces could go east quickly. Of coure we need some time for war wearniness to fall and I DO want a republic. So this is on my wish list in the future, or we could also visit Otto and make him apologize for his betrayal. By the way I have plans for both.
Aggie

[Aro]

Aggie,

What more can I say?
Otto is on my "wish list" too.

[Aggie]

I have an idea, here it is. This could make chats real easy. First the turns starts, then OPD gives report. Then each minister paste his orders for execution, thenPrez say next orders and so on. It is great to have to SMC last so I can react to situation and have time to discuss. before execution. Maybe have a special room for each minsters discussion too. Can we do this system or something like it.
Aggie

[UnOrthOdOx]

You should rephrase that statement, Aggie.

"I know all you DIA members don't want to hear this...."

Fance, Germany, Greece. Then whoever decided to get in our way over that. Eventually: England, Aztecs.......

Then we will have a nice, relatively small border with Abananaba Minor. Easily defended when we decide to attack Russia, Rome...

[Aggie]

Unortho I was too was thinging about a nice "choke point border with Abanaba minor.
Aggie

[roadcage]

Look on the bright side. Look at the fat juicy Persian regular Archer that just got off the turnip truck er boat. Standing there so brave and calm in front of two Caytapults, and within range of two WC's in Willsbury. Now if these WC's were already upgraded....

Sometimes you need to sc**w up to be lucky! I sense a GA is upon us!

[Aro]

Roadcage has a point; we CAN trigger a GA in the next few turns, just attacking the archer with the catapults and then finish him with a WC. The question is do we want a GA right now? Or a little later?

[Togas]

Originally posted by OPD
You weren't in the chat all the time but if you were you'd be surprised with how much people hassled me all the time and repeatedly question things that I had already explained. Thats why a thread such as this which undermines my authority to carry out the turns pisses me off.

In a way I'd like to echo OPD's frustrations. I know that we have some very active and vocal and well meaning citizens who attend the turnchats and enjoy being involved, but there's a difference between helpful suggestions and hastling, especially OPD who is trying to do twenty things at once and doesn't really have time to answer questions in the turnchat.

I would suggest that we use the Minister's chatroom next time to do orders and leave the conversation and debate to the Dem room. This is how it was previously done to cut down on the spam.

I would also like to suggest that the people who attend the chat read the minister's orders thread before coming to chat. Please people, it's really frustrating to be asked five times if a certain order is going to be carried out when the order was already posted and should have been reviewed by the person asking. It would also be a good idea for the people to review the orders prior to turnchat and debate them then, instead of debating them as they are executed by OPD.

Also, when OPD replies in red that something was done, it's too late to argue about if it should have been done. The argument should have occured before the execution of the order.

As for myself, I would like to apologize for becoming edgy and annoyed as we entered the fifth hour. I blew off an afternoon's worth of work that I shouldn't have. I had hoped to get a few things done in the office before closing, but the turnchat went way too long for my tastes. I won't be there five hours again in the future.

Understand that telling me to "wait" or disagreeing as I'm giving orders in blue really p*sses me off. I imagine other ministers might agree. Why? Because in another chat room adaMada, E_T, and I are constantly discussing what the orders should be. We work out last minute changes to the orders, debate them, refine them, research alternative, and come to a final consensus before I propose the order in chat and without holding up the chat.

But more importantly, your distrust tells me that you don't think that I (and my deputies) have thought about the orders I'm giving, and that you don't trust us to give the best orders. That sort of distrust is very frustrating and I would agree with OPD when he describes it as "undermining our authority". I felt the same way.

I understand that some of you feel that it's in the nation's best interest to look at every option, every time, and to question every order given, and to some extent that is true. But it crosses the line when it becomes humiliating, frustrating, or causes excessive delays.

I want to encourage involvement by everyone in the game. Coversation and discussion about important decisions is always appreciated. I just want to ask that you give a little respect and trust to the people who were elected to make important game decisions at the times when the decisions are actually made. Thanks.

--Togas

[=OttomusCeasar=]

If you don't like the orders they give, run against them. I haven't attended a turnchat, but I had the idea it was for suprises or clarifications to miscommunicated orders, not a complete debate and revision of the ones posted in the Forum.

[UnOrthOdOx]

I would like to add something there.

We have an orders thread for a reason. Orders are posted, and are there, open to the public. Any objections to such orders would be better handled inside that thread. Post your ideas, give us feedback. Then your views will be taken into account before the chat, and therefore have time for people to see them, and think on them. Such suggestions will be more likely to occur than ones made at the last minute.