Ammendment Discussion: Use of Great Leaders

UnOrthOdOx · September 26, 2002, 10:58

Ammendment (insert # here)

Great Leaders will be used based on the consensus of the City Planner, Military Minister, President, and Vice President.

These officials are strongly recommended to poll the public to determine their desires.

Someone help with wording please.

Suggestions for improvement?

UnOrthOdOx · September 26, 2002, 10:59

I didn't put to make it based on an official poll because of the time that would require. 3 days for discussion, and 3 for the poll will result in a long stoppage of the game.

Some may think that is prefferable, however.

Harovan · September 26, 2002, 11:09

Leaders are a very scarce resource. We've been just lucky now to get 2 so quick. So I would not strongly recommend, but require the public poll. The forementioned ministers should discuss a couple of viable options, point out their pros and cons and then poll.

UnOrthOdOx · September 26, 2002, 11:13

I really feel the same, but just fealt like pointing out that would require AT LEAST a 5 day stoppage of play.

wervdon · September 26, 2002, 12:09

No more often than it should come up, a game stoppage is not a big deal. I'd require a poll too, they are so rare and important that all our citizens should have their vote and a chance to try to persuade others.

We could also consider pre-polls. For example, we could poll now "If we get another GL in the next 20 turns, what should we use it for? (A) Forbidden Palace (B) Army (C) JS Bachs (D) Adam Smiths .... " Whatever other wonders are coming up in a reasonable time frame. One of those type polls should cover us for 3 or 4 turn chats, though we still may need to hold an official run off poll if it happens unless something had won very decidely.

wervdon · September 26, 2002, 12:13

Oh and if its not obvious, we'd only need to pre-poll during times of declared war. Otherwise, its not very likely we'll be getting a great leader dropped from the heavens by the great bannana.

Shiber · September 26, 2002, 12:49

It might also be wise to force the president or vice president to stop playing the game if a GL shows up so that the public and especially the ministers will be able to discuss this in the forum.

joncnunn · September 26, 2002, 12:54

Well, starting a prepoll when we expect to go to war within 2 turn chats would be good

Since we are still at war, it might be a good idea for a prepoll just in case we get a 3rd one, athough I think the choice is currently obvious given our techs (Army) so perhaps it could wait until there's a possibility that we could buy Invention or Music Theory.

GodKing · September 26, 2002, 12:57

I wouldn't say necessarily stop the game. Just move the GL to a location that is safe until a good stopage point comes about and we can then have the discussion.

I think it is a good idea to potentially stop the game to allow discussion by the people. However, some times it may be mute to do so as there is an obvious choice (not that there is one at this time, just a hypothetical).

Later.

civman2000 · September 26, 2002, 13:15

I agree with Sir Ralph. The people must be polled

jdjdjd · September 26, 2002, 14:27

Possible wording based on what is said so far:

Quote:

The purpose of this amendment is to provide instructions on what do to in case a Great Leader(GL) should emerge during battle.

1. The GL should immediately(once the game continues) be dispatched to a safe place for protection, preferrably to the city where he will complete his work.

2. It is recommended that as soon as the GL emerges(or as soon as feasible) that the game be stopped to decide the fate of the GL, as well as the destination city where he will meet his fate.

3. The President, Vice-President, SMC and City Planner, should discuss options for the GL. They should then poll the people, and the most popular option shall win. A pre-poll discussion thread can be started at their discretion, and should last no longer than three days.

4. The game will then restart as soon as practicable after the poll is complete.

5.The poll should last no longer than three days and follow the polling standards already listed in the Code of Laws.

Feel free to make suggestions, etc.

Aggie · September 26, 2002, 15:08

I think we should poll, but as far as stoping the game that should only take place if one of the following occurs,
1) There is a wonder that could be built if we don't build immediately(I suggest we do,as togas very wisely did this time, asceratin the progress of other civs and if they are close we call the chat until a poll)
2) We risk not generating another GL, for example we have 5 elite knights ready to attack or similar( 1/3 chance of gl roughly)
Rest assured that I will contine to try to produce GL but of course all I can do is try top get as many units to elite and get elite victories.
Aggie

wervdon · September 26, 2002, 16:03

Actually the more I think about it, the more convinced I am that pre-polling when possible is the best answer. If we just plan our turn chats on the assumption we will have a GL to use, then there's no reason to stop wether or not we end up with one.

Quote:

Since we are still at war, it might be a good idea for a prepoll just in case we get a 3rd one, athough I think the choice is currently obvious given our techs (Army) so perhaps it could wait until there's a possibility that we could buy Invention or Music Theory.

Actually if we pre-polled right now, there would be at least two choices between the army and FP. There might also be some soon to come wonders worth considering. I think most people would vote army though, but I wouldn't be comfortable if we just assumed that without doing the poll.

Maybe the ammendment should just say "In the absense of any existing and recent poll on the use of the great leader, then the game must be stopped to perform such a poll." We'd of course need to define recent, but every 10-20 turns should be plenty during a war to keep us prepared for the event of a GL.

joncnunn · September 26, 2002, 17:18

Yes, if we are very lucky and get another Great Leader right now, the game should be halted so we can access if there is any possibily of building a wonder with it.

E_T · September 27, 2002, 04:25

If we stop a turnchat to poll in the forums for what we do with a GL, could cause great problems. If, for instance, we start the next turnchat on sat/sun and the first few fights of the day produce a GL, what do we do?. If we start a Poll then in the Forums, how long to we wait and how may votes do we wait for before continuing? This could put a great strain on the Turnchat process.

If we prepoll the possible use of a possible GL over the next 5 turn, then the President & Ministers would have a general consencis on how they should proceed.

Personally, An Admendment for this purpose is not the best thing to have.

E_T

UnOrthOdOx · September 27, 2002, 08:05

If after the first turn a great event occured, like say England and Greece sign a Military Alliance to destroy us, would the Chat not be stopped?

I am for continuing play as much as the next person, but these are rare, potentially game altering events. The Game SHOULD be stopped, and the people polled. Now, if we COULD prepoll, sure, that would be great. But if for some reason we didn't expect our ONE elite to be enterring battle and he happens to pop a GL. YES, we should stop the game and poll the people. This game is for the people, to deny them any choice in such a matter would go against the fundamental reasons for which we created the Demo Game. To get EVERYONE involved, not jsut the people who make the chat or the Ministers.

jdjdjd · September 27, 2002, 10:52

The other problem with the pre-poll, is how recent does a poll have to be to be valid and who decides if it is still valid?

Your safest bet is a poll to the people....the game is saved, we lose nothing by stopping to poll on the rare instance of a GL.

civman2000 · September 27, 2002, 16:28

Quote:

The poll should last no longer than three days

Why???

I think it should be required that all wonders (small or great) as well as making an army MUST be included as choices in teh poll.

GodKing · September 27, 2002, 17:57

I have had several games where I was under attack, the city has only one elete defender and is surounded by enemy tanks. Usualy a receintly captured city. That defender generates a GL. Cannot move out as the city is surounded. Next turn the GL dies as the city falls. Or even if in the same turn. It happens to me often enough that I mention it and I suspect others will soon see as well.

Now, should we stop the game for something that cannot be changed? NO. We can make an effort to save him (which I do) but if fighting on multiple fronts one can only do so much.

Other times, we have already built one army, so we have met that requirement for the small wonders. There is only one Wonder that can be built. So there the options are wait X (say 20) turns for the next two techs or build the wonder (army is essentally mute at this point, remember). Do we stop and discuss? NO. It is obvious.

Now it is not obvious. We have not had the first army. We have the forbidden palice we can build (not that it takes forever to build normally, just is faster this way), we also have a palace jump we are contemplating. Now we need to discuss things. If I was present last time, I would have insisted on stopping as I would much rather have leo's workshop instead of michalengolos cathedral. So I would have insisted on polling the people to see if they would be willing to wait. Life goes on, I was not there, and those who were did what they felt was best. No recriminations on my part about this.

So, for my 2 cents, please, make it wise to poll the public, but in cases of obvious choice do not force the elected officials to sit and hold everything up for a week.

UnOrthOdOx · October 1, 2002, 08:08

Quote:

The purpose of this amendment is to provide instructions on what do to in case a Great Leader(GL) should emerge during battle.

1. The GL should immediately(once the game continues) be dispatched to a safe place for protection, preferrably to the city where he will complete his work.

2. It is recommended that as soon as the GL emerges(or as soon as feasible) that the game be stopped to decide the fate of the GL, as well as the destination city where he will meet his fate.

3. The President, Vice-President, SMC and City Planner, should discuss options for the GL. They should then poll the people, and the most popular option shall win. A pre-poll discussion thread can be started at their discretion, and should last no longer than three days.

4. The game will then restart as soon as practicable after the poll is complete.

5.The poll should last no longer than three days and follow the polling standards already listed in the Code of Laws.

6. In the event of a prolonged war, a Pre-poll may be used in place of stopping the game. Pre-poll results will remain current until the winning choice is completed and no longer available or there is a new choice to decide upon.

Is this ready for polling?

Edit: Changed #6 from 'prepoll will remain current until one of the choices is completed...'
to '...until the winning choice...' No need to disqualify the poll if a losing choice is completed.

Shiber · October 1, 2002, 08:17

Seems good to me.
I think we've discussed this long enough. It's time we finally poll this amendment.

jdjdjd · October 1, 2002, 09:16

GK, you're right with your scenario, see section two of the proposed wording, the word recommended is used, because of cases as you mention, they are rare, but we should not tie the hands of those playing the game too such an extent.

In most situations however, we lose nothing if we stop the game for a poll. On the other hand, if we do not stop it leaves the Pres or VP open to criticism for not making another decision.

Finally, three days does not have to be the limit, civman, thats what was propsed in the thread so I included it. I think they talked of three days to not hold up the game any longer than necessary, the poll is three days but there may also be three days of pre-poll discussion, thus thats six days waiting on the poll to complete. Many would prefer not to hold the game up that long, I guess.

jdjdjd · October 1, 2002, 09:58

Quote:

The purpose of this amendment is to provide instructions on what to do in case a Great Leader(GL) should emerge during battle. This amendment shall be an exception to any part of the current Code of Laws, especially with regards to timing of turnchats/turnthreads.

1. The GL should immediately(once the game continues) be dispatched to a safe place for protection, preferrably to the city where he will complete his work.

2. It is recommended that as soon as the GL emerges(or as soon as feasible) that the game be stopped to decide the fate of the GL, as well as the destination city where he will meet that fate.

3. The President, Vice-President, SMC and City Planner, should discuss options for the GL. They should then poll the people, and the most popular option shall win. A pre-poll discussion thread can be started at their discretion, and should last no longer than three days.

4. The game will then restart as soon as practicable after the poll is complete.

5.The poll should last no longer than three days and follow the polling standards already listed in the Code of Laws.

6. In the event of a prolonged war, a Pre-poll may be used in place of stopping the game. Pre-poll results will remain current until the winning choice is completed and no longer available or there is a new choice to decide upon.

Made some grammar fixes ("do to" to "to do" and "his fate" to "that fate". Also, added that this amendment will be an exception to any other rule. I have the mandatory turnchat at close of an administration in mind when I add that.

ruby_maser · October 1, 2002, 11:24

why are we taking 3 days to poll? people who won't take the time to visit this site once a day to cast their vote on issues should just be SOL. We close elections for presidents of the US in one day... this should be no different.
There are only a couple options anyway which would need to be polled on.
1. Build an army
2. Build a Great Wonder that is currently available
3. Hold in reserve for a Great Wonder not yet available.
4. Abstain
Obviously the ministers would need to interject what Great Wonders are currently available or may be coming soon.

But these long stoppages times need to be reduced and if it has to come at the cost of someones vote, I think it should.

UnOrthOdOx · October 1, 2002, 11:39

...

We are a global community here. As such, we must give ample time to all countries of the world.

To deny people a chance to voice their opinion is to deny ourselves of our strength. We live on the variety of people and voices that come to this community. Not everyone can be on every day. I am one of the most active here, and I miss days now and then. This is a game, it is not real life. What harm is done when polling for three days to allow as many people as possible to see and have a say?

You bring up the US. We do not have elections in one day. We have them spread over several months. There is first the campaigning within the party. Then the Primaries, then there is extensive Campaigning, speaking, questioning, and polling all before that fateful day of elections. Here, we do not have a year to debate the subjects at hand. Often the debate continues inside the poll thread, sometimes influencing the very poll itself. More importantly, we are voting on issues, not candidates in this case. We lose nothing from stopping the game. These debates are the very foundation of the game, actually. It is why we are here. To debate, question, and play as one, not to play through with the greatest of speed. We do so in the swiftest way possible that also allows all to participate. It is the nature of the game.

ruby_maser · October 1, 2002, 11:56

Quote:

You bring up the US. We do not have elections in one day. We have them spread over several months.

The point is conceded. But in defense of the statement, I was only refering to the polling period itself which would probably best be described as Election Day. I in no way intended to mean we stop the pole when the sun sets on America... simply that a 24 hour period should be sufficient.