Self Destruct Units - Page 2

Straybow · October 4, 2002, 20:14

Heck, I didn't even know that you could self-destruct a unit…

tonic · October 5, 2002, 01:35

Disbanding is a self-destruct - I like the phrase "activating self-destruct...." appled to the AA.

I guess a more precise term in the context of the thread would be "suicide-attack" with its current topical connotations in the real world.

Cybergod · October 5, 2002, 08:15

So a self-destructing Fusion Needlejet can be used to a bigger effect (and bypass the Flechette Defence Systems) than a Conventional Missile? Nice.

big_canuk · October 5, 2002, 11:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Cybergod
So a self-destructing Fusion Needlejet can be used to a bigger effect (and bypass the Flechette Defence Systems) than a Conventional Missile? Nice.

Yes, but only against units not in a base or bunker. Missiles (or PBs or xgas

) must still be used against these "protected" units.

And conventional missiles themselves make a good high range (but slightly more expensive) self-destruct unit.

bc

Blake · October 5, 2002, 17:33

I have used fusion missiles for selfdestruct, they are very very useful when you have tech that looks like the following:
Orbital Spaceflight
Fusion Power

No weapon greater than "6".

In challenge games vs super AI you often have to destroy massive hoardes of fission infantry, blowing them to bits with self-d missiles is very cost effective. The tech route taken can be very erratic and Orbital and Fusion are very close together, it is quite likely you will have both before having strength 10 weapons. Cheating AI's tend to get interceptors so your attacking units will have even odds of winning, better to blow them and be guaranteed to take out a half dozen units than have even odds of taking out one interceptor...

Btw you people who say bunkers give protection are talking through holes in ya heads. Bunkers do diddly squat against exploding units.

I believe that self-D was added with very little thought and virtually no testing, it is by no means balanced or fair. (well, it's fair in the sense it's allowed by the game rules, but it's not at all balanced)

MariOne · October 6, 2002, 05:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Blake
Orbital Spaceflight
Fusion Power

No weapon greater than "6".

...Orbital and Fusion are very close together, it is quite likely you will have both before having strength 10 weapons...

Correct approach, wise and sensible considerations, but...
...as a matter of fact, Orbital and SFFuels are the two prereqs for SuperLube=weapon10.
Once you are in that situation, strength 10 weapons are only ONE tech away...

Quote:

Originally posted by Blake Btw you people who say bunkers give protection are talking through holes in ya heads. Bunkers do diddly squat against exploding units.

Well, it looks like an interested gamer should only rely on his pwn tests to know what actually happens in the game...
Blake sounds rather "positive" (

), and I esteem him as insightful and accurate, otoh I'd be very surprised that *experienced* players like b_c, OgOg and even Mongoose would report such feature without having tested it for themselves!

Then, I admit I NEVER used the feature myself.
If I got it right from your reports, there's NOTHING that can save units outsid bases from detonation attacks...

I might have the occasion to put it to use it soon tho...
CGN is beating Poly and ACOL a$$es in FW6 game... and buster has a very nice energy park from which he's churning and impressive techlead and grabbing all the projects...

MariOne · October 6, 2002, 13:22

Tests performed.

Observations confirmed the mechanics of self-destruct as reported above.

HP=int(W*R/2)
max HP=10*R
this means that any weapon stronger than 20 won't deal more damage than a Graviton weapon detonation.
In practice this applies only to Singularity weapons, and String Disruptors in SMAX. And...
...to Planet Busters (gamers tip: it's better to properly deploy a PB rather than to detonate it...

)

Mind, you drop decimal (i.e you round down) only at the end.
This means that a Fission Gatling will make 2 HP damage just like an Impact. Or a Fission Shard 6 HP just like a Tachyon.

But a FUSION Gatling will deal 5 HP damage, whereas a 4-1-1*2 only 4HP. Or a 13-1-1*2 13HP, and a 12-1-1*2 = 12 HP.
A Quantum Gatling = int(15/2) = 7HP, a Quantum Shard int(39/2) = 19HP.

Three paramount outcomes (plus a quirk) from tests and observations:

Blake is right: bunkers do NOT protect you from detonations (I tested it in SMAX only, not SMAC)
the detonation damage also hits YOUR OWN UNITS!!!! So long for multiple Infantry detonations: your subsequent kamikazes must start from 2 tiles away, or they'll be killed just as the enemy, before their detonation turn comes... This feature makes a lot sense to me, you can't "direct" nuclear explosions at a target....
YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE MOVEMENTS LEFT to detonate a unit. You can activate and detonate them also if they are "already moved", just like with issuing orders to formers and crawlers. Note for instance that some movement left is instead required for obliterating a base, or for using a CPod to Build (or Join) a base.
Of course, you need one movement left for aircract on their last leg, or for missiles, otherwise they'd crashland before you can detonate them
(quirk) in case someone overlooked it, you can't detonate a unit from inside a base (despite you could have profited the fact that bases are detonation-proof...): if you issue the command, you only get the Disband option...

Some technical detail.

- I confirm that native (wild or bred) units deal 6HP damage (they don't have reactors)
Similarly, PSI-weaponed Fission units deal 6HP damage for detonation. This is because PSI weapon is equiparated to a 12-strength one.
Indeed, a Fusion PSI units detonates with 12HP damage, a Quantum PSI with 18HP, a SingPSI with 24HP.

- Conventional Missile payload is a 12-strength weapon.
Actually, the design component (on DW window left boxes) is tagged 12, but the unit stat string reports 18-1-16*2 (for Fusion R).
12 is the correct value to use in detonations.
This means only a mere 6 HP for Fission, 12 HP for Fusion, 18 for Quantum, etc.
A Fusion Conventional Missile costs 6 rows and deals the same detonation damage than a cheaper 3 rows Fusion Tachyon Infantry. The difference only lies in deployment range.
Tectonic and Fungal payloads are *equipment* not weapons, thus having strength 0 they deliver 0 damage.

- Resonance weapons are treated as their nominal value, disregarding their extra abilities and higher component cost: 6 for R-Laser, 12 for R-bolt.

- Air or Sea detonations all behave the same way as Land ones.
Detonating Ships will deal damage on adjacent coastal tiles.
You can detonate a Transport passenger. Beware tho: as pointed out above, you will at the same time damage your Transport and sink it with all the other passengers!
We saw that you can unload the kamikaze cargo, and detonate it after having moved the transport 1 tile away (or you move the unloaded *rover* kamikaze 1 tile away before blasting it)

Mongoose · October 6, 2002, 13:34

Disclaimer:

I never made any claim about bunkers. I can count on one finger the number of bunkers I have ever built in SMAC. (Maybe two, if you count my very first game when I stupidly automated a former. I say maybe because I cannot recall if it built a bunker or just ran around in circles until I shut the automation off.)

AFAIK, a bunker protects from collateral damage. Self-destruct inflicted damage is not collateral, apparently. Ergo, the bunker provides no protection.

Excellent work, as always, MariOne.

spartak · October 6, 2002, 15:45

Maybe I'm too soft but I never destruct units. Its hard enough building them without throwing them away.

Ogie Oglethorpe · October 6, 2002, 20:32

Quote:

Originally posted by MariOne

Blake sounds rather "positive" (

), and I esteem him as insightful and accurate, otoh I'd be very surprised that *experienced* players like b_c, OgOg and even Mongoose would report such feature without having tested it for themselves!

Guilty as charged re: Bunkers. Although you'll notice in my early posts I claimed I "believe" which leaves me a little wiggle room instead of claiming 100% accuracy of the claim.

Had I said I "know for a fact" you could feel free to set of the bonfires for an OgOg roast. Lol....

Oops. Not the first mistake I've made on these boards to be sure.

{edit}

On recheck it looks like I was the culprit of this misinformation over on the Civgaming.net boards as well. Double oops. Looks like you can definitely start the OgOg bonfires.

{/edit}

Og

big_canuk · October 7, 2002, 14:39

Whew!!!!

Thank you Blake and MariO! I am so glad I learned this from you guys rather than having Buster point out the "error of my untested belief in some things I read", in combat.... again.

Likewise, I can count the bunkers I have built on 1 hand, and if one has the HSA, and preferably the CBA, then bases are almost always better anyway. But a thread like this always makes you think. I'm glad i didn't think wrong.

And MariO... I am an avid reader, and a painstaking careful player, but alas, a very poor tester. At my loss, I believe what I read. But you are right, if I haven't tested it, I should not state these things as fact, but instead preface them with "I have read that". What would we do without you!...

bc

aaglo · October 8, 2002, 02:12

I have sometimes tried that self destruction... but I didn't notice any damage to adjacent enemy units...

Maybe I should build some suiciders, and try it out...

Sikander · October 8, 2002, 02:57

Excellent work guys. It's nice to see Mario back in the lab.

Darius · October 9, 2002, 07:57

Can you self-destruct an ogre? How much damage does it do?

MariOne · October 9, 2002, 08:20

Dang, I missed that one!

Can you *produce* an Ogre? Or just find it in pods... Can't recall...

An Ogre is not an "Alien=ChironNative" (PSI) Unit, it's an "Alien=Progenitors" Unit...
I would figure it does a damage according to its unit stats...

Considering that they *never* heal, the best use for a severely hurt one, apart keeping it in the backlines as extra police unit, could indeed be to detonate it..

Darius · October 9, 2002, 08:48

That's exactly what I was thinking, MariOne. In one of my current games I have a damaged ogre, with 2 or three stacks of AI Yang approaching in adjacent squares, ripe for detonation. I *assume* a 6-3-1 ogre would behave the same as a 6-3-1 unit that I would build. Has anyone tested this? (BTW, you cannot produce an ogre, you can only find them.)

Ogie Oglethorpe · October 9, 2002, 15:03

Quote:

Originally posted by MariOne
Dang, I missed that one!

Can you *produce* an Ogre? Or just find it in pods... Can't recall...

An Ogre is not an "Alien=ChironNative" (PSI) Unit, it's an "Alien=Progenitors" Unit...
I would figure it does a damage according to its unit stats...

Considering that they *never* heal, the best use for a severely hurt one, apart keeping it in the backlines as extra police unit, could indeed be to detonate it..

I find myself taking seriously hurt Ogres and disbanding them for mins when starting the secret projects. Never looked at self destructing. If used for self destruct you'll only be talking 3 hps of damage according to the formula for a mark1. Finding a mark2 or 3 Ogre is a rare find indeed.

IIRC (and this is very hazy) I thought disband of the hurt ogre netted something like 50 mins.

This is especially helpful if you want an early SP and have yet to get IA and don't feel like burning some AA's or other units.

aaglo · October 10, 2002, 05:02

I have never gotten ogre MKIII, maybe twice MKII.

Interesting misinterpretation: the first ogre I ever got was MKII, in my first game. I thought: "these things are cool - and easy to get. Great!" So the reality hit me with high velocity (that's what happens when you fall from great heights)

I've never used self-destruct on them. I don't even remember if I ever disbanded them for extra mins.
hmmmm..... gooood....

Darius · October 10, 2002, 06:37

Quote:

Originally posted by MariOne
I confirm that native (wild or bred) units deal 6HP damage (they don't have reactors)
Similarly, PSI-weaponed Fission units deal 6HP damage for detonation.

I don't know what other factors might be affecting this, but last night I detonated a spore launcher, and it only resulted in 20% damage against fission units.

MariOne · October 10, 2002, 07:32

Another superficiality from my part...
I detonated some worms, of different morale levels, and maybe 1 IoD, but not other kinds.

Also, I realise that I didn't test whether artillery has an influence on detonation strength...

KrysiasKrusader · October 16, 2002, 01:50

Quote:

Originally posted by MattyBoy
This thread demonstrates that there are two classes of SMAC player - those who play MP and those who do not. I'm in the latter camp and have never had to understand how self-destruct works as I never face coordinated attacks.

This could very well be a good subject for a seperate thread.

Excellent observation, MattyBoy.

Having myself moved from enjoying the game in single player, to multi-player mode, there is hardly any comparison when facing an attack from the AI, compared to one from a human opponent. If that opponent has much more experience than you... Your faction will come to a very quick end, especially if your caught unawares.

Now, for me any ways, there is just not that much appeal (or any challenge what-so-ever), in playing the game in single player mode after having experienced multi player SMAC.