Longshoremen strike

[faded glory]

I am with Che on his views of this(for once)

[DanS]

"Sadly, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the union bureaucracies have failed to do ground work building support for the longshoremen before the lockout began."

Likely. When people read the $110k number, all sympathy goes out the window.

"In any event, this is management's fault. It's not about money or benefits, it's about the union and management wanting to do whatever it wants."

This is both of their faults. The union for taking an unprincipled position towards technology and management for not making contingencies to enforce its will in case of lockout/strike (other than Taft-Hartley).

[DanS]

"In that case what I don't understand is what the govt is trying to do: force the unionists to accept non union workers so that the lockout will stop, or force the shipping companies stop the lock-out without any change in the status?"

Axi: Pres. Bush can order a cooling off period of 90 days, after which, if they still can't work out a deal among themselves, they go into binding arbitration to work out their differences (I think).

In this situation, the union believes that it would lose big time in an arbitration, especially since the union cannot leverage its other assets--e.g., the fact that so many other industries rely on the container ports.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

90 days = 3 months = after election day.

[Gatekeeper]

Originally posted by Frogger
You're lucky there's any grain to rot after the summer we've had...

Yep, it was looking bad until August when the rains finally arrived and *lessened* the drought, but not ending it. And you only have to go 150-200 miles west of my home to run smack dab into the middle of searing drought again.

It's a good thing there wasn't a bumper crop; we'd have even more grain piling up right now, unable to be shipped overseas.

Gatekeeper

[Imran Siddiqui]

Frankly, the President is being extremely partisan on this

How is he being partisan when he isn't doing anything? I don't think you can be considered partisan when the Dems (ie, Clinton/Gore) would be doing the exact same thing in this situation.

90 days = 3 months = after election day.

Even if election day wasn't coming up, he'd do the same thing. It puts them back to work and arbitration would likely lead to management success.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Zkribbler
Franky, this isn't a strike about wages...it's a lock out because the unions won't let management hire non-union labor.

Of course, the really sick joke here is that, if managment were allowed to hire non-union labor, the new employees would probably organize in the next few years anyway. But no union is going to cave in on this point, and it's a ridiculous powerplay for managment to even attempt.

(I realizing that you're just venting over union corruption...elsewise, as VP of my local, I would take personal offense at your claims.)

Sorry. Your right, I'm just venting cause we're getting screwed.....that, and there have been shakedowns of union leaders here in the past coupla years....

My fault and I'll stop.

[Felch]

If longshoremen get paid more because of hazardous duty (something I accept) then why should data entry clerks get the same benefits? I'm opposed to people initiating coercion to acheive their aims, and if people paid attention they'd note it was the unions who started this scuffle by organizing work slowdowns.

Instead of workers working at what they were best at, they were randomly assigned jobs by the union, as an act of protest. Now fine, it's better to do that than a whole lot of other things, and if the unions had a good cause I wouldn't be bothered by it, but it's wrong to get really high wages for doing a job badly.

I'm sorry, I just can't feel bad for people who make more than anybody in my family. Only my dad and brother come close in income to the lowest paid longshoremen, and we're all college educated (well, I'm in the process).

[Adam Smith]

MtG:

no way Mexican and Canadian port facilities can take that much capacity.

Right. LA / Long Beach alone is something like 10x Vancouver / Roberts Bank. I dont know much about the Mexican port facilities, but their rail and truck links are decrepit.

Zkibber and Others:
The lockout was because the union was staging a work slowdown while still under contract. Labor relations have never been great on either side of this industry, but the facts are what they are.

Faded Glory:

I also hate companies who rip us off charging 29 bucks for a 19 cent shirt and keep the difference

Part but by no means all of that difference is the cost of transportation, including dockworkers salaries.

Chegitz:

It's true that Dockworkers get paid a lot of money. It's also true that dockerworkers have a very dangerous jobs, and are paid well to compensate them for the risk to life and limb.

Nice try. But why do dock workers earn so much more than other workers who are exposed to similar risks (ie working outdoors with heavy equipment)? Dock workers are paid far more than truckdrivers, train crewmen, construction workers, deep or strip coal miners, agricultural workers, etc, etc, etc.

It was high union wages that turn this country around. High union wages mean more money is in circulation, which means more jobs are created. All sorts of secondary jobs are created by workers getting good wages: construction, because more workers can buy houses; autos; because more workers can buy cars; etc.

Unlike Reagan's voodoo economics, union wages actually do create a trickle down effect. When those jobs dry up and go to Mexico, so do the secondary effects of those jobs. When all the auto factories shut down in Flint, so did housing construction, grociers, malls, etc.

Please learn some economics. If I buy a TV made in Mexico, I get a TV and somebody in Mexico gets $300. There are only two things they can do with those $300: paper the walls of their houses, or use them to buy american goods and services. Assuming its the latter, the multiplier effect is the same regardless of whether its a US or Mexican job.

*Throws Chegitz a poker chip*

Gatekeeper:

now that the BNSF can't take the unit trains filled w/grain to the West Coast ports

Where exactly are you located? Many grain shippers also have the option of shipping to the Gulf Coast, though transportation costs are higher that way.

Axi:

Oh come on MtG, how could I know, living half way around the world, how much these guys get paid?

Then why did you post???

Note:
Adam Smith spent the weekend learning to spell "crane" properly.

[axi]

There are only two things they can do with those $300: paper the walls of their houses, or use them to buy american goods and services.

They could buy European or Japanese goods and services and pay for them in $.

[Adam Smith]

And what would the Europeans or Japanese ultimately do with the dollars?

[KrazyHorse]

Buy more European and Japanese goods?

[Adam Smith]

*Smacks Frogger up'side the head with a fish.*

Point is that a unit of currency is, ultimately, a claim on the goods and services produced by that country.

[Sten Sture]

Anybody want a shipping container?? We have a couple of them. I think I am going to walk across them on the way home tonight, instead of taking the bay bridge.

This might be a good time for Winston to do a Marsk audit...


One interesting side economic note on this "event" is that it is inflationary. When factories/retailers can't get their supplies efficiently they have to get them inefficiently. So they either have to pay extra up front to have stockpiled inventory, or pay extra currently to get it another way, or just go out of business.

Effectively both the Union and the Company are monopolies who can charge unbelievable rates because of the exorbitant cost of going around them. This is particularly fascinating because the primary asset they are monopolising is a government constructed deep water port, built and subsidized with taxpayer's money.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Well could be a prime target for a non-profit governmental organisation. This situation would not happen.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by Sten Sture Effectively both the Union and the Company are monopolies who can charge unbelievable rates because of the exorbitant cost of going around them. This is particularly fascinating because the primary asset they are monopolising is a government constructed deep water port, built and subsidized with taxpayer's money.

The Pacific Maritime Association is the labor negotiating arm of the ocean carriers. The carriers belong to the Pacific Carriers Conference, which is effectively a government sanctioned cartel. Under the law which created the Federal Maritime Administration, carriers get an antitrust exemption which allows them to jointly discuss rates, routes, capacity, terms of service, etc. .... discussions which would get them thrown in jail if they were in virtually any other industry. The only saving grace is that while it is profitable to join a cartel, it is even more porfitable to cheat on one. Several carriers, such as Evergreen, make a habit of cheating on the collusive agreements, which pushes prices closer toward the competitive level.

[The Mad Monk]

Hurrah Evergreen!

[Roland]

Che: "It was high union wages that turn this country around. High union wages mean more money is in circulation, which means more jobs are created."



I always love it when Commies sound like Greenspan and his Wallstreet crowd.

So, summary: Parasitic union abusing closed shop vs management hoping for the nannystate. Ah, the wonders of a free market economy...

[chequita guevara]

Greenspan is opposed to good wages. That's why he killed the economy two years ago by raising interest rates even as investment was declining. He said that there were danger of wages going to high and raising inflation (even though there was no evidence of that).

[Roland]

Of course Greenspan is against high wages, he's a corporate puppet after all. But he loves loads of money in circulation.

[Timexwatch]

Greenspan is the Don Quixote of economics...always chasing the inflation dragon. Too bad he missed the IT bubble and is apparently missing the housing bubble.

On an economic side-note, has anyone else read the Economist Survey on the recession? At the first mention of doom and gloom and Austrian Economics, I thought, "Since when did Roland join the Editorial Board?"

[Roland]

Haven't read the Economist for months. Funny how suddenly the good ol' Austrians get attention after the Keynesians can no longer explains things....

[Winston]

Originally posted by Sten Sture

This might be a good time for Winston to do a Marsk audit...

Not my table anymore, I was laid off in May. With three year's full pay.

[chequita guevara]

The Economist has always been gloom and doom.

[Urban Ranger]

Dubya did it. Say bye to the support GOP is seeking from the dock workers.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Roland
Haven't read the Economist for months. Funny how suddenly the good ol' Austrians get attention after the Keynesians can no longer explains things....

The Economist has been always of the neo-classical school.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Dubya did it. Say bye to the support GOP is seeking from the dock workers.

All couple thousand dock workers? How tragic.

I think Bush got more votes than lost by saving lots of people's asses who rely on just in time manufacturing.

[Urban Ranger]

I thought Conservatives are always against government interventions?

[Asher]

It wouldn't be the first time you were wrong about something.

[Urban Ranger]

It appears that the conservatives - at least some of them - are not against government interventions when said interventions are in favour of businesses.