Hawks: Rise Up!

[Inverse Icarus]

My friends, dark times are upon us. I have left the game for a little more than a month, and I now come back and gaze in awe of all our glorious empire has accomplished.

Out military machine has gained much, land, gold, technology, wonders of the world, everything that makes a civilization great.

When I left, we were on the verge of war with France, and my Deputy (and soon after full SMC) carried out my plans flawlessly. The tangled web of war at first scared the culture mongers of Apolyton, but the bold Hawks were resolute in their aims. War is the way of life, after all.

After all is said and done, gaze with me. Persia, the threat to our east, has been reduced to nothingness. In a few short turns, they will be completely erridicated. We took the mighty Pyramids from our ancient enemies, and now all our cities are growing rapidly.

Leaders have been produced, and two wonders rushed, in the greatest city in our empire, Ubergorsk. I thank all of Apolytonia for such an honor to be bestowed on my fair city.

But now, the darkness is onsetting. Talks about a Republic are surfacing. Our warlike people will not fare well in such a government.

Looking over the game (for the first time in a while) I've noticed a few things about the military.

Firstly, we have 59 units, all being FREE right now. When we go to the Republic, all those units are going to cost us 1 gold per turn.

Now, at first glance, that seems alright. You can defend the Republic with statements like "we'll get some extra trade, more gold, we can easily support this army".

Then factor this in. We have a "weak" army when compared to Rome (i use 1.21, with correct military unit comparisons). We have an avergae military compared to the Aztecs, and the Germans. We are stronger than the rest of the known world.

Rome is quickly becomming far too powerful, and the Germano-Aztec threat has to be dealt with. A beefing up of our armed forces is in order. Plus, "mop up" operations with America, Persia, and France have yet to be carried out. We need to finish what we started, Manifest Destiny is upon us.

Talk of Caravel exploration has begun. We will begin launching exploration teams from our East coast, traveling as far as they can. Launching from our EAST coast (say, from, Grenoble), we could cover more ground. Manifest Destiny is key.

Again, dark times are upon us. We only have 7 knights as of now, and Rome is just about to go on a power trip.

this rabble rousing brought to you by ex-supreme military commander UberKruX. Glory Comes From Spilt Blood. vote Smart, Vote KruX Aggie.

[Ninot]

bah, wormonger drivel.

[Duddha]

O great prophet, you have returned! I will immediately prepare for a parade in Ubergorsk.

[Donegeal]

I have always played civ (all versions) as a builder and have never even considered a warring concept.

This experience in the demo game has changed my thought process almost completely. Our warring has been unbelievably successful, and it has shown me many new things.

Two main things happen with war. One, you build a nice military and other civs treat you better (ie: gpt for peace). And two (also more significant) is while increasing our production/commerce base (ie: more cities) we are reducing our opponents production/commerce base (ie: lost cities).

With this in mind, we see how the current situation in Abananaba has formed. We have been keeping some civs (ie: America, France, Germany and Persia) in check by wacking them around but have left other to their own devices. These others (Aztec, Greek and Rome) have become the only people who can challenge us because we haven't whacked them.

A quick strike on one of these civs (most likely Aztec in the American Region) is almost a best option. Strike quick. Take a couple of cities then sue for gpt and tech for peace. Since we're right there, maybe give Greece a quick wack and take Argos.

Just some thoughts about war.

[Inverse Icarus]

LOVE the sig donegeal

[Donegeal]

Just changed it in tribute to a legend

[Meshelic]

UBER - Inspirational indeed. hear hear!

[XOR]

I support war, but I also truely and legitimately think we need to improve our industrial base a bit in order to empower a better army.

It is important, however, that the period of improving our industrial base is as brief as possible, and I disagree with your plans to attack aztecs after conquering Persia, America and France.

I propose that after Persia, America and France have been conquered we should attack Grece, to grow a bit further but we could use Germany and England to declare war on Aztecs and take what we want of the aztec-american cities while the 3 of them (Otto, Liz, Montezuma) engage in their war. During that war we could strike on Grece.

This way we would have the guarantee that neither Otto or Montezuma would interfere (ie. attack us) during the conquest of Grece, at least for 20 turns. If Otto is losing by the time we are done with Grece, we should side with Montezuma against him, if not, we should side with Montezuma against him. By that time we would doubtlessly become the strongest nation on the map. We will be able to do and undo anything we want, without rules, without anyone to stop us.

And I've had plenty of wars as Republic, that will not prevent us from going to war. Besides, we are a Religious Civ, we can change from Republic to Monarchy and then back whenever we want.

[Donegeal]

Nice general plan, but I think Quick strike plans are the best way to go until we have wacked everybody to keep them in check. We can whittle away civs instead of long greulling campaigns like the War of Wonders I.

Quick strike like we did against the Americans in the WoN.
Quick strike like we did against the French.

Do damage then get gpt, tech. We can't be stopped this way!

[jdd2007]

Uber! I shall sacrifice twenty of my finest bulls to you!

My thoughts:

Of course we should continue our wars of conquest. Greece and Rome will be a huge threat if we lie dormant and 'build.' Our Monarchy is wonderful and we need it at the moment. But, Republic is not such a bad thing. If we keep our conquests swift, we can manage the [rp] DIA-sponsored [/rp] war weariness and gold consuming armies. So, we must hang on to Monarchy for at least half of next term.

[History Guy]

Well, I think we should mop up the remains of America, and perhaps France. Persia, I think, might still become a threat if they get ships, and decide to transplant their empire abroad (which they might, after all, do, knowing the AI). This would just be to rid ourselves of a nuisance, to gain valued lands, money, and technology.

Now, as for the military, it must be preserved in order to counter the threat, the very serious threat, I might add, brought to us courtesy of the intellectual leaders of the world right now, the Germans, who you may recall were defeated in a very small war several months ago, and have been a bit agitated as to our existence ever since. Mr. Bismarck, I would note (having met the little chap myself during the war with Germany and the subsequent peace negotiations), is a hard man, and he does not appreciate being defeated, even in a small, inconsequential war, such as the won he fought against us several months back. Bismarck is like an elephant in that he finds it extremely hard to forget just about anything, especially not an insult, and being defeated in warfare as he was was quite an insult indeed. Let's face it, the man is amassing an army, and he hates Apolytonia. If he gets a reason, he will attack us, and with the Republic on as it might well be in the near future, we will be left without any means of self-defense, or counter attack. If this occurs, we will loose a lot of land, and Bismarck will not be kind to us. It's in our best interests to have a large defensive/offensive army to protect and expand our empire (i.e. taking out the rest of America, France, and Persia, as we should do). Otherwise, we are in terrible danger.

Rome and the Aztecs are certainly a danger, but not nearly as much a danger as Germany, in my opinion. The Romans are far from us, not so the Germans. The Aztecs are relatively weak, most of their army is made up of weak, cheap Jaguar Warriors, guys who fight with stone clubs, after all, and weak cudgels. But Germany is a very significant threat, and if we try to pay one gold for every unit every turn, we aren't going to win against them, because we will never be able to afford it.

[E_T]

The Germans aren't really too much of a Threat to a well prepaired Army, If Otto had any smarts, he would have attacked us while we were in the middle of the Persian conquest. Instead, he has been paying us LPT for Peace. That is very good overall, because Germany looks to be the Tech leader for the near term, at least until we get up to speed.

If we allow 20-30 turns on building our Infrustructure AND bringing our Armies back to full strenght, we can take some of Otto's accomplishments from him, at a time of our choosing. Remember, The war with Persia (and Germany) was a punishment for attacking us while we were taking care of the French. It did turn in to the First War for the Wonders.

The problem is that it HAS left us WEAK in many areas and Economically subserviant to the other Civs. War does have it's time & place, but even a warmonger MUST stop and tend the homefires for a while before marching off again.

E_T

[zeit]

"If we allow 20-30 turns on building our Infrustructure AND bringing our Armies back to full strenght, we can take some of Otto's accomplishments from him, at a time of our choosing. Remember, The war with Persia (and Germany) was a punishment for attacking us while we were taking care of the French. It did turn in to the First War for the Wonders."

E_T- you've put this quite eloquently, we SHOULD take the time to keep up with the tech race and strengthen our infrastructure. This is the only way we can support an effective war machine to make quick and decisive victory. As i once stated, referring to Richard Overy's "Why the allies won", one of the reasons the Allies finally beat germany, both on the eastern and the western front, was that, besides punding the industrial infrastructure of germany to dust, with endless aerial bombardments (western front), they also managed to their industrial output considerably, so germany just couldn't keep up. On the other hand, right from the start of the war the german industry did not went through the modernization, both in the factories themselves and the industrial adminitration. The russians on the other hand, despite suffering great economical loses, managed to re-organize their industry and back in 1942 already produced more weaponary then germany, despite having their resources supplied gretly cut down. The germans on the other hand, did not manage to exploit the great amount of resources they acquired in the war, and in 1943 their induty fell behind considerably, depite the fact that in that time, the allied bombardment on the german industry was merely a nusiance. We should learn from the german's (RL germans, that is) mistakes and work our economy, exploit the resources and the relatively quite and safe period we are about to go through, so we come out stronger and more prepared for another round of fighting.

[Aggie]

In deed we must remember the best defense is a powerful offense,so we should build a force 20 knights,their use to be decided later. We MUST not let our military whither and we must look to the seas for other victims, did I say victim I meant future friends.
Aggie

[E_T]

I'm considering Running for City Planner but I don't know what support I would get from the Hawks. I'd also like to keep my FMD for Trade Position, if possible. That would keep me up with the foreign outlook while keeping up Domestic Issues.

E_T

[Meshelic]

AGGIE- I totally agree, a navy must be built to transport our units to the new world. If we can find lost civz that can put our opponents in check by either trading with us or tasting the sword, then would that not be the most beneficial to us at the moment?

ET - very good points all around

historyguy - I support your information of the Germans strengthening their position; I have seen the buildup myself during a routine Shadow Service tour, Otto DOES hold grudges (we all know this). I believe we must tread lightly...

we need to jumpstart our economy, somehow

[GePap]

Bah to the warmongers!

We lack the economic capacity to stike at Rome, an be well defended from other atatcks_ I have said this before- we have always won because we have always picked on the waek, the helpless, the unfortunite. We have never fought a strong opponent, which is wjy our victories have been spectacular. America was and is a joke, the same for France,a dn Persia, without Iron. Had Perisa had iron from the start, we might very easily not be celebrating in Persepolis. But the Germans, the Aztecs, the Romans have iron, have horses, and have had time to prepare- they also have far more technology than us.

We can't losse with what we have- we CAN loose if a grand coolition is formed against us due to mindless aggression in our part. Victory is in our grasp- and blood for brains types shoul not be allowed to squander it!


DOWN WITH THE WARMONGERS! LONG LIVE APOLYTON!

[XOR]

Originally posted by GePap
Bah to the warmongers!

We lack the economic capacity to stike at Rome, an be well defended from other atatcks_ I have said this before- we have always won because we have always picked on the waek, the helpless, the unfortunite. We have never fought a strong opponent, which is wjy our victories have been spectacular. America was and is a joke, the same for France,a dn Persia, without Iron. Had Perisa had iron from the start, we might very easily not be celebrating in Persepolis. But the Germans, the Aztecs, the Romans have iron, have horses, and have had time to prepare- they also have far more technology than us.

We can't losse with what we have- we CAN loose if a grand coolition is formed against us due to mindless aggression in our part. Victory is in our grasp- and blood for brains types shoul not be allowed to squander it!

This is true, and we cannot allow this to continue any further. This is why we must act according to what I described in my previous post.

[Meshelic]

War with the Persians has gotten us nearly twice the amount of land, as well as technology we would have been slow to research in the future. So far war has treated our civilization well, and will continue to treat us well in the future.

I agree with some of the 'moderates' here that the next 20 turns (at least) SHOULD be devoted towards restructuring and tying our great civ into a modern civilization that can stand up to the Romans... To do this we obviously need a long period of peace to not only shed our warmongering reputation (although this will have to be reinstated later) but achieve vast gains in science, the economy and the military.

If the Romans see us with a weak military they will surely look down their nose at us, as well as the rest of the nations. We need to be taken seriously and that is what happens with military might, whether we wield it at the moment or not.

We need to restructure, but only in the ultimate goal of coordinating a large army to field.

[jdd2007]

'restructuring' is fine, as long as it involves lots of unit-building

[XOR]

Originally posted by jdd2007
'restructuring' is fine, as long as it involves lots of unit-building

Since the higher production cities will be ready faster those cities can start producing units and stacking them at strategic positions near the German and Greek borders (in case they attack).

Even during the industrial development process we can continue to attack utterly weak neighbors. Liberating New York and Boston is just a matter of upgrading the 4 nearby charriots and using them to conquer the 2 cities. I'm for attacking NY first because the capitol gets extra defense and if we attack Boston first both cities would be the capitol at the time we attack them.

After conquering America, there's France, the other uterly weak neighbor. There for us to take, but we should be carefull to maintain friendly relationships with everyone else, or at least keep some trade going on so they dont declare war, or so their reputation at least suffers from such action.

[GePap]

Gunpowder is upon us folks, and the Krauts and Romans have it. Lets hope the Romans have no saltpeter, ditto for Herr Bismakr- but that is unlikely. And if the Aztecs win America, we might not have any ourselves. How will we take huge metropolises like berlin with knights vs. Musketmen?

Technology is making the Hawk strategy, for now, impotent.

[Meshelic]

Of course we should continue to build more units during the course of our 'restructuring', a good mix here will aid us in coming conflicts.

As far as the restructuring process is concerned; temples, marketplaces, (city walls) and the clearing of the jungles should be on top of the agenda, however these are no substitute to a large military force, not to mention the 'expeditionary' force that will be necessary to discover the lost civz.

[Meshelic]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by XOR

I'm for attacking NY first because the capitol gets extra defense and if we attack Boston first both cities would be the capitol at the time we attack them.

Wise...

After conquering America, there's France, the other uterly weak neighbor. There for us to take,

A meticulously planned military campaign will take the French, such plans should be discussed in the War Academy...

[XOR]

Originally posted by GePap
Gunpowder is upon us folks, and the Krauts and Romans have it. Lets hope the Romans have no saltpeter, ditto for Herr Bismakr- but that is unlikely. And if the Aztecs win America, we might not have any ourselves. How will we take huge metropolises like berlin with knights vs. Musketmen?

Technology is making the Hawk strategy, for now, impotent.

For now it is impossible that all their pikes have been upgraded to musketmen, even if they did have gunpowder.

We can take any huge metropolis with knights as long as we lay some severe siege and turn it into a town. But trust me, in general, knights are good enough to deal with musketmen, I usualy play Japs and I rape the hell out of those stupid musketmen with samurais. We will, of course, lose a few knights on every city we attack but that's how it works, and that's why we require to increase our industrial base, and that's why aqueducts should be within our construction priorities too.

[Meshelic]

Originally posted by GePap
Technology is making the Hawk strategy, for now, impotent.

During this stage in the game it is difficult to continue the warpath if you aren't on top of the science race, we need to research gunpowder soon to make other nations think twice before they ally against us (as if any of them could realistically think to take us on, especially under the great leadership of General Aggie).

[Arnelos]

Originally posted by Meshelic


During this stage in the game it is difficult to continue the warpath if you aren't on top of the science race, we need to research gunpowder soon to make other nations think twice before they ally against us (as if any of them could realistically think to take us on, especially under the great leadership of General Aggie).

If they get Cavalry before we have musketmen... we're going to be weeping...

(and even if they have large numbers of cavalry even after we DO have musketmen... we're STILL going to be weeping)

I strongly suggest that you hawks at least consider the sheer monstrous level of stupidity it would require to attack anyone other than France after America. Now that two civs have musketmen... it won't be long before they all do... and once our knights get bogged down fighting fortified musketmen in metropolises... the AI's are going to smell blood...

The only way to out-do this is to build up our defense and infrastructure to a point where EVEN if we get bogged down while fighting another civ (like Greece or England, the most vulnerable after France) that we don't have to worry as much about being absolutely wide open to any other AI who cares to notice...

Seriously, we need to develop our infrastructure and defense - currently it's laughable.

[History Guy]

For once, Arnelos is right. I think France, America, and Persia should all be totally annexed, to the last city, but after that our campaigns of conquest must be put on hold to boost culture and learning.

[XOR]

Originally posted by History Guy
For once, Arnelos is right. I think France, America, and Persia should all be totally annexed, to the last city, but after that our campaigns of conquest must be put on hold to boost culture and learning.

Nooooooo!!!. We are fine in culture, if anyone builds more culture than us, we kill him. We can cultuwin like this if you want your cultuwin so badly...

My proposal is to conquer america and france while developing the INDUSTRIAL BASE (ie. improving mainly productcion and cashflow) and then stack up a mighty army to invade Grece. We will probably invade Grece with Cavalries.

Oh, yes, if the AI get's military tradition and does not want to hand it over there's always the option of espionage.

[Meshelic]

Arnelos - you are correct in that we need to build our infrastructure and defense and I will not disagree with you there, I DO think we should build up culture and our industrial base, but much of that comes with the clearing of our jungles, which is being taken care of by a huge force of 'volunteers' from our conquered foes. Through conquest (err, foreign volunteers) we have accumulated a massive workforce that will accomplish just that...but is still seperate from the military