Strange behavior of some factions

Bored · October 7, 2002, 03:22

Why AI of some factions (Data Angels,Hive) is so passive? For example when I invaded to Data Angels territory in 2187 I found just one base -- Data De Central.At the same time I exactly knew that they doesn't wage war with anybody -- there weren't nor others factions neither mindworms close.

spartak · October 7, 2002, 03:28

Its because the AI is badly flawed and at times seems to have been designed to be crap.

Main_Brain · October 7, 2002, 04:58

AI also seems to copy some human behaviour, I.E. if you always go FM and win, the AI will start that too.
(But as as teh AI cant really handle FM (xcept Morgan) he will stay very small at all time.

Clear Skies · October 7, 2002, 05:47

The Data Angels seem particularly prone to this - I've come across them during the early-expansion phase when I have at least ten bases to find them still with only two. Often it's a lack of beelining - the AI not getting to Doc:Flex early enough in order to get off an island - but other times there seems to be no logical reason for it.

It can swing dramatically the other way, though. Once Roze got a large island containing the Monsoon Jungle all to herself and raced ahead of everyone, including me, in terms of population and technology. Rather worrying...

Earwicker · October 7, 2002, 11:07

Agree - it should come as no surprise that the stupid AI will behave in a stupid manner.

I noticed the lack of growth as well, particularly for Roze. Last two games, both on huge maps, she was inexplicably really slow out the gates. Immediately had Data DeCentral building lots of buildings and probes (even though she had no immediate neighbors or contacts). No CP's (I presume her second was lost to worms). A pity, since a strong Angels faction makes for interesting games and afects the way you look at tech sharing/ gifting to submissives.

Frankychan · October 7, 2002, 23:36

I like the unpredictability of the AI....I remember one game where I was kickin' but on my continent (The left one) and had aspirations to start invading the right one.

Well, little did I know, but MORGAN of all leaders was kicking the butt outta Miriam, SANTIAGO, AND Skye! Just the fact that Morgan was taking on all three of these factions AND winning was enough for me to sit back and watch....then invade Nwabudike's money-lovers.

Mongoose · October 8, 2002, 00:39

Two large flaws with AI development, IMO:

#1) AI terraforming is horrible. Unless started in a position with ready access to lots of nutrients the AI's growth will stall.

#2) Classic Civ AI error...overbuilding units 'til support costs consume its entire productive capacity. If caught in a low growth situation as in #1, the AI simply sits and waits to die...soon gets to the point it can't build a colonypod to grow horizontally and it can't build a former (even if it might do something useful with it!) so it can't grow vertically.

These two things are why the AI that do the best are either high support factions like Yang and Miriam (this is also why AI Morgan is so lame) or high food producers like Sven or Deidre. All the others' success will be largely driven by the nutrient accessibility in their immediate starting area.

For the strongest AI performance, play with heavy cloud cover.

Mr. President · October 8, 2002, 02:59

Quote:

#1) AI terraforming is horrible. Unless started in a position with ready access to lots of nutrients the AI's growth will stall.

#2) Classic Civ AI error...overbuilding units 'til support costs consume its entire productive capacity. If caught in a low growth situation as in #1, the AI simply sits and waits to die...soon gets to the point it can't build a colonypod to grow horizontally and it can't build a former (even if it might do something useful with it!) so it can't grow vertically.

I don't know a lot about programming, but shouldn't those problems be avoidable?

Lefty Scaevola · October 8, 2002, 09:05

I have found that AI faction of fail to expand when their first base is mostly surrounded by fungus. It seems to break their algorythm either for path selection or base site selection.

Earwicker · October 8, 2002, 12:23

Quote:

Originally posted by Mongoose
#1) AI terraforming is horrible. Unless started in a position with ready access to lots of nutrients the AI's growth will stall.

#2) ...overbuilding units 'til support costs consume its entire productive capacity. . .

These two things are why the AI that do the best are either high support factions like Yang and Miriam (this is also why AI Morgan is so lame) or high food producers like Sven or Deidre.

#1 and #2 are closely related: because there is no decent attempt to terraform, a faction is left to fend for itself with a series of 2-1-0 suares, no recycling tanks, and choked-up production. The AI Cha Dawn is the worst, capturing worms and stashing them in bases, where they count against mins, and also building TONS of transports. WTF? Inexplicably, the guy always seems to do okay on early research - but it's hilarious to watch his bases struggle to build a missile noodle with only 1 excess mineral.

A few formers planting a few forest squares would solve all sorts of problems - another case for "forest-seeded worlds".

Clear Skies · October 8, 2002, 14:46

Forest seeding definitely helps a lot. Gives the AI a big early boost and helps min production throughout the game. Otherwise, the AI formers seem decidedly shy about planting forests...
The entire situation summed up in two words: Silly AI.

spartak · October 8, 2002, 14:53

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. President

I don't know a lot about programming, but shouldn't those problems be avoidable?

ER yes, I guess Firaxis couldn'd be bothers to design a proper AI and Brian the Bug Master just updated the CIV2 AI and off it went to production/.

Ogie Oglethorpe · October 8, 2002, 15:53

Googlie wrote some very interesting pieces over at Civgaming.net on how to allow the AI some ability to perform better when putting together a scenario.

Amongst these are setting the AI up with some boreholes that are crawlered. Some for energy some for mins. This then allows the AI to become supercharged upon advent of min and energy restriction lifting.

In essence you are terrafroming for the AI in this scenario.

Others changes include a state of atrocity vendetta against the human and an arrangement wherein all factions are pacted and submissive to one or more lead faction(s). Tech sharing abounds as a result.

The net result is you find yourself rapidly behind in a game of survival and then catchup. When the AI's reach restrictionlifting they become even more fearsome.

A great set of games and scenarios if anyone has interest. Check them out.

The Vagabond · October 9, 2002, 00:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Mongoose
For the strongest AI performance, play with heavy cloud cover.

Very true. The AI benefits from this much more than the human player. And the opposite is true: on harsh worlds the AI suffers much more than human players. My best games, when I grabbed all the SPs available, were on harsh worlds.

The Vagabond · October 9, 2002, 01:07

Overall, the AI engine seems to operate in such a way that it magnifies and perpetuates the initial trends (be them positive or negative) in the AI development. If an AI faction starts off bad, it is almost certainly doomed to a miserable existence throughout the game. In the opposite case, it becomes unrealistically and disproportionately strong.

DilithiumDad · October 12, 2002, 09:54

For more challenging AI:

1. Dense cloud cover is good, and a preset resource-rich map is even better. The Ultimate Builder Map is optimized for AI performance and the Map of Planet or Huge Map of Planet that come with the game are almost as good.

2. The lamest AI factions are those that do not research Centauri Ecology. Make it a point to gift or sell cheap Centauri Ecology to any faciton that doesn't have it even if they are hostile. Why? Because you are going to be taking their land sooner or later anyway. Better that it should have a little terraforming.

But for some reason the AI will just stop making colony pods even with good base sites available. What makes this even weirder is that they totally fixed this problem in Civ3. The AI civs build colony pods like mad and beeline for all best base sites. How about a SMAC patch incorporating the Civ3 AI engine??

Lazerus · October 13, 2002, 07:56

The Drones always seem to be the worst faction when I play, for some reason they get quite high in the tech early on, get a SP or two and then just sit and wait to be killed with nothing more then 15 synthmetal garrissons in each of 3-4 bases trying to stop my fusion choppers.
Yang,Santiago and such always forget to terraform.
Sven declares war on me as soon as we speak (I normally play as Hive) but does nothing apart from kill a few sea formers at best.

All this at transcend level. Keeping my drones in check is often harder then killing all the AI factions.

Best challenge is often having the 2 aliens on a tiny map and annoying them both so they declare war, real struggle early on.

Main_Brain · October 13, 2002, 13:24

Really? the Drones tend to get much more Mineral Production than the other AI's due to Boreholes?
-2 Research doesnt do tehm Good though

CEO Aaron · October 13, 2002, 18:25

The Drones' Industry can more than make up for bad research, but I think Lazerus' point is that under normal circumstances, the Drones tend to be very reluctant to expand, an observation that I concur with. The only factions that ever present a consistent threat are Yang and Miriam, the other factions tend only to be a nuisance, and only get threatening if they get spread out on jungle.

waab · October 14, 2002, 07:15

Actully I think the drones is often isgoing very good. But as Lazerus said, they are often going in to a stal...nothing is happening.

Ned · January 20, 2003, 20:07

I found that changing the AI to "passive" and including a "build" interest materially helps their ability to invest in infrastructure.

Also, playing on worlds heavily preseeded with forests helps the AI enormously.

I am currently playing a game where I randomized the AI's political agenda's. Morgan is interested in "power." Well, this is the very first game I have ever played where Morgan is a factor. He expanded and grew at a very large rate and has kept neck and neck with me, Miriam, well into the late game.

Ned · January 20, 2003, 20:16

One more point, I have added +1 police to Fundy and Power to help the AI factions who seem to love FM. By using either or both SE choices, they reduce the crippling effects of staying in FM.

The Vagabond · January 21, 2003, 03:01

The Drones usually do well on small maps.

MariOne · January 21, 2003, 06:47

OK, the AI is lame, and I agree or at least don't object to all of the above.
On top of that, I'd like to point out one thing that you shouldn't forget:

they built-in a mechanism which intentionally gives you a *range* of opposing factions levels in a game.

True, all the above limitations hinder the proper development of AI factions, and differences in starting locations can seriously cripple them too.
But you know that in SMAX you can easily select 6 identical opposing factions from the setup interface.
Even those identical factions, landed in rouglhy the same environment (if a huge map and lucky seeding allow for that), will show great differences in their development, because the game IS designed to produce that effect, as it was in Civ. Or at least, this is my perception.

Thus, in a game you wil inevitably see a couple of faction sticking at the stone age and behaving ludicrously even compared to the already lame AI potential, despite the game is on transcend (=massive AI cheating), despite those factions would be supposedly the best for the AI and got a favorable landing and environment.

Xian · January 26, 2003, 02:48

where can i get the ultimate builder map

Arnelos · January 26, 2003, 04:32

I almost always play with dense cloud cover and I do find that the AI behaves better because of it.

My observations about the AI factions are similar to others'... the Hive is typically always a threat, regardless of how other factions fair. I agree that this has A LOT to do with Yang's increased support value. The Believers are typically an early threat in most games, but sputter out pretty quickly unless they conquer 1-2 other AIs very early and take at least 1/4 of the map (then they become a holy terror...

). I find that the Consciousness does particularly well in nearly every game I play with them. Aki Zeti isn't typically very agressive toward me like Yang or Miriam, but she typically always is either the best AI or one of the best.

AI factions that typically do at least decently would be the Gaians, though I've personally found that they aren't terribly difficult to defeat in battle compared to other factions I typically fight (such as Yang, Santiago, or Miriam). Sven does reasonably well as long as he doesn't get too much competition (interestingly, I find that Sven many times gets the most competition from Miriam).

The factions that typically do terribly in almost every game I've seen:

Data
Planet Cult
Morgan

The other four human factions (Peacekeepers, University, Spartans, and Drones) vary ENTIRELY based upon the land you put them on. Any of them other than the Spartans have the capability to become true terrors in the hands of the AI if given good land (especially the University). The Spartans, at least in my experience, tend to have something of a plateau effect... the AI just doesn't seem to be able to handle them very well. They typically don't do poorly even on moderate land, but they just don't become very dominant even on exceptional land (at least in my experience).

On the off-chance that they get exceptional land, I agree that Morgan suddenly becomes a true terror in the hands of the AI. Free Market economics and exceptional land on top of his innate bonus really make AI Morgan kick butt. The trick is that he has to have truly EXCEPTIONAL land in order for the AI to pull this off. As someone else posted, I've seen a game where AI Morgan was actually conquering multiple other AIs and it truly stunned me. I'll grant that it helped a bit that I had a pact with Morgan and had been tech-trading with him, but still...

Since I typically play as the Peacekeepers, I don't have a lot of experience watching the AI handle them. However, the times I've played other factions I like to play (such as Morgan), I find that Brother Lal either becomes a truly dominant power or he just sits there waiting for someone to please take him out of his misery. Sadly, the latter has happened a good bit more often than the former.

So yeah, the AI is pretty lousy... the worst part about it is that the AI is NOT taylored to faction.... considering that the designers of the game only made 7 factions and went to so much trouble to balance them for MP purposes (and they didn't do so bad a job), the least they could have done for the AI was specialize it better to the faction it was playing and responding to the environment it landed in...

Oh well

I've progressed to playing more Civ3. It's not as intellectually stimulating as SMAC and its gameplay isn't as open-ended, and the multiplayer is deplorable by comparison, but at least they wrote marginal AI for it. The AI has a horrible sense of planning, but at least it doesn't just sit and wait to be killed off like some factions do in SMAC.

For multiplayer, though (and I've played a large number of LAN games, especially and now a few LAN PTW games, too), there's no question that SMAC is the better game

Method · January 26, 2003, 12:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Xian
where can i get the ultimate builder map

i think there's a link to it in DD's sig. i'll see if i can find it.

EDIT: quote from said sig:

Quote:

Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet, available at The Chironian Guild:
http://guild.ask-klan.net.pl/eng/index.html

Method · January 26, 2003, 12:04

hmm that link doesn't work....let me see if i can attach it

The Mad Monk · January 27, 2003, 00:53

In a recent game, Lal did a good imitation of Singapore -- by the time I reached his territory, he had a size fifteen and a size thirteen city, both with every available improvement, both on a fully terraformed postage stamp of an island, both coastal -- and nothing else.

waab · January 27, 2003, 07:55

Actuly I most confess that I have lost two games in may days of SMACx. Bouth times playing the drones (might be because that I am only plaing the drones), the first time I ended up surounde by Miriam, Santiago and Yang and all declared war against me. I had place to build two more cities.

Second I lost was when Morgan bought the energy market. But I think that it was the only time Morgan was speciell good.