Bamboozled by "Always Renegotiate" - Page 2

badams52 · October 10, 2002, 15:38

Getting back to the topic at hand...

Quote:

Originally posted by Carver
It's probably a glitch. Although, if you want to rationalize it; the AI may see extending the current deal as a way of building on your constructive relationship - even if they otherwise have no use for the deal. If you try to renogotiate for more the AI sees that as a slap in the face and as refusing the hand of friendship. Therefore, the AI worsens its trading terms.

I agree with Carver and vote glitch (Soren, are you listening?). When I get saltpeter and make roads to it, I look to see which computer opponent has the gunpowder advance and saltpeter it in it's boarders but is missing a road to the valuable resource. I offer him a deal for saltpeter and see how much gpt he will accept. Then I leave the deal alone. Even after the computer gets a road to the resource, he will not renegotiate the deal ever.

Maybe the computer has a better deal with some other civ and is receiving more gpt than he is giving out. But if I ever try to renegotiate the deal, I will no longer be able to trade the resource to him losing my gpt and making me believe I'm getting gpt from the opponent for free by giving him a resource he already has.

Anyone else notice this?

The auto renegotiate seem to just be the same as contacting the civ and just looking at the active trade. Before auto reneg, I would often wonder, "Is this trade worth renegotiating?" Sometimes you click on it, and the computer says, "what are you thinking? This deal sucks for me." And you loose the extra gpt you were getting. Other time's he'll say, "I'm getting a real bargain here." And you can jack up the price. So I think the auto renegotiate is just like that screen where you can see the active deal in place before you click to renegotiate. Maybe he'll like it, maybe not.

Arrian · October 10, 2002, 15:54

badams52,

Yeah, I've seen the same thing - I trade a resource to the AI and later the AI gains access to it, but they don't cancel the deal. If I'm stupid enough to bring it up for negotiation, though, *poof* no more deal.

-Arrian

Bella Hella · October 10, 2002, 16:15

yes, it's weird that the AI gets MAD when you give them a gift. maybe it's a matter of "i don't need your help, dad! i'm a grownup now and i can take care of MYSELF!!!" i've never seen this happen. i'm in the habit of giving the AI 5 gold as a gift instead of my map, and it generally works pretty well. perhaps you should try bribing them with money...?

re: always renegotiate trades - i mentioned this in a thread about trading a while back. i, too always keep the "always renegotiate" option on, the theory being that as soon as the deal runs out, the AI has to come to ME and renegotiate instead of cancelling the deal and trading the luxury to somebody else. it's happened to me before. i'll have gotten say, spices from germany for the past 1000 years, and then when the deal runs out and i try to renegotiate, those spices are no longer available. no one has taken any german territory, so they must have traded them to someone else. when i saw that happen, i turned the "always" option on.

i learned the hard way that it's probably best to accept the deal as is when the AI comes a-knockin' to renegotiate, unless you reeeeeeally don't want to trade with them anymore, or are going to war or something. but if you want to keep getting those furs, you have to just say yes.

i've also found that when you're resource/luxury rich and have a lot of surplus stuff to trade, it might be a better idea to turn the "always renegotiate" option OFF. this way you can shop around for a better deal if you have something lame going on and somebody can offer you smmething better.

dexters · June 8, 2003, 20:15

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
There is another problem with this.

I have discovered that, if I neither wish to invade a civ or pay its outrageous demands (typically the case if the AI civ in question is relatively strong), the best policy is to simply sell them my luxuries for as much gpt as possible. This has 2 effects: 1) I gain gold, and can afford a higher luxury rate; and 2) I drain their treasury.

This is the best method of dealing with the top AI civ. Meanwhile, I pick off the weaker ones and take their luxuries... allowing me to sell more and more stuff to the top AI civ. This will bankrupt them and result in a large tech lead for me, so that when the time comes for a showdown, I will most likely have far superior weaponry.

-Arrian

Ok, I'm reviving another old thread here, but I thought I should a comment here.

I think the problem you just describes and one we've all experience before, is an outlier extreme scenario that the programmers didn't envision. Somewhat surprising to me to be sure.

Being stingy on deals work very well when the AI is competitive with you and or is at least costly and difficult to invade (continents maps come to mind). But once you get too big and have your forces wating outside their borders, they still follow the same algorithm to arrive at their trade values, hence this rather strange reaction from the AI.

I have proposed in another thread that the AI should be layered, to anticipate this particular outlier /extreme case because as the Civ 3 community have time to play with the game, it is not difficult to get into a world dominating position, even on the higher difficulty levels.

The layered AI will behave differently on several levels.

1) If it has a small army, in absolute and relative terms, it will behave differently. Perhaps employing guerilla style tactics where they won't come at you in stacks

2) it has has a small navy, it will likely employ hide and seek tactics, to harass and your coasts, shipping and what not. It may not be effective, but it is at least far more interesting than parking their ships off your coast waiting to be blown up or hiding in their ports not doing anything. The 1.29f patch seem to have the AI navy behaving a little better. They will attack and then retreat just out of Arty range. Still, defensively, they don't employ the port to port strategy whereby they pop out attack and go hiding in another port in the same turn.

3) This leads me to the larger point. When AI gets small, another layer of AI should kick in. it should recognize this and play with a different orientation. Instead of trying to hedge its bets and play like its about to get big, and thereby making some rather strange choices in what it builds and what it values diplomatically, a small Civ will suddenly value gold and techs highly and be willing to make luxury for gold/tech trades more readily, especially against a large Civ. Anything that will make it cheaper for them to stay up to date and maintain a decent army.

I'm sure several human OCC strategies can be taught to the AI as well.

epics · June 9, 2003, 04:23

ad. Catt's problem: i think it was brought up a time ago, and the answer was something like this:
Maybe in the first deal you gave them a tech, gpt and they gave luxury. so after 20 turns when you renegotiate you just ask for the luxury and give gpt, but if you "would you listen to our blah blah blah" it aotumaticly birngs back the tech (it's not visible although), but the tech is already known to AI so they get angry that you try to rape them off.
I think it goes pretty much like this.

Dr. A. Cula · June 9, 2003, 07:32

In my games the AI always cancels deals where it offered gpt and/or luxuries for tech + somtehing else, unless I make a coutner-offer for exactly the same quantities of everithing and a new tech, which seems rather sensible.

If I make a deal where I give one or more luxury/strategic resources in exchange for gpt, after several renegotiations I sometimes renegotiate the terms and manage to get more gpt for the same resources, e.g. I give, say, wines and incense for 15 gpt, after 20 turns the AI says it wants to extend the deal, I agree and do the same 20 more turns later. Usually at the third renegotiation I manage to get 30 or more gpt for the same things and the AI will renegotiate later under the new terms.

Panag · June 9, 2003, 09:50

hi ,

its always great to "renegotiate" peace , ....

a great way to get free techs , money , lux , ....

have a nice day

Bamspeedy · June 9, 2003, 22:33

As for renegotiating resource trades, I think it is if you choose to just continue the trade, the AI is viewing the offer as if you are still currently trading (the AI has a better attitude with you if you are currently trading resources with them), but if you try adjusting the trade, the deal is ended, thus AI attitude is dropped, so they require more gold from you.

Still haven't figured out reason for drops in attitude when trading maps. I know if you give them a government tech, they will immediately go to anarchy, thus they are in a different government than you, which results in attitudes dropping.

dexters · June 10, 2003, 00:26

If you trade maps, it may suddenly know you have resources it doesn't and begin hating you for you.

I'm wondering actually, if anyone here knows whether or not the AI is programmed to take out strategic resources from an enemy (including the human player) or do they just randomly declare war and hope they grab something in a war?

Panag · June 10, 2003, 03:42

Quote:

Originally posted by dexters
If you trade maps, it may suddenly know you have resources it doesn't and begin hating you for you.

I'm wondering actually, if anyone here knows whether or not the AI is programmed to take out strategic resources from an enemy (including the human player) or do they just randomly declare war and hope they grab something in a war?

hi ,

the AI can see the entire map , including all the extra's ......

that's why they settle so often on high value resources , .....

have a nice day