Weird Nuclear War

problem_child · October 11, 2002, 10:30

Okay this has probably been remarked upon somewhere else in the forums but I'm too lazy to look for it.

I was playing as Rome, occupying the northern half of the largest continent, and across the sea was the continental superpower of America. Alot of stuff happened, and I would enjoy describing the game-history to you but I don't have time just now, suffice to say my Roman empire reminded me of Russia in the past two centuaries, terrible defeats and mass losses, military setback after military setback, and yet still able to draw on vast rescources and population, and soak up vast quantities of ordinance that a lesser natioin would have long ago collapsed under. Eventually, my Rome made it to Nuclear Power status.

Anyway, long story short- I initiated a nuclear salvo against America, and immediately offered peace, and they accepted!

is this bad AI? or brutally good (but inhuman) sense (they did just have half their population blown away and their economy wrecked, all trade closed down becouse of their wrecked transportation system and an large expensive state-of-the-art military to maintain etc).

Skeeve · October 11, 2002, 12:32

Just how many of their cities did you Nuke?

Also, you're sure you were not already in a state of war with them, right?

I have seen some instances of the AI actually accepting peace one turn later, but that is usually because they are on the verge of annihilation.

mattcj · October 11, 2002, 13:28

Quote:

Originally posted by problem_child
surfice to say my Roman empire reminded me of Russia in the past two centuaries, ...

I think you mean "suffice" ?

ThaddeusAlexander · October 11, 2002, 13:48

There's no AI bug. If America in your game has no nukes of any kind and they know you do, then they'll want peace and fast. Don't forget also that your POWER at the start of your nukefest that turn must have been massive because nukes add a lot to your power, and if the AI is at war with someone more powerful then they'll probably want peace.

But here's something odd that happened to me the other night ... I make a peace treaty with the AI and then I ask them to move their troops and they declare war on me again!

I offer peace, they accept. I ask them to leave, they declare war. All in the same diplomacy thread. ARGH!!

Cheers
~Thadalex

Traelin · October 11, 2002, 14:44

Quote:

Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander
I offer peace, they accept. I ask them to leave, they declare war. All in the same diplomacy thread. ARGH!!

Yeah I seem to have that happen in every game I play. Usually it's before the late Industrial though, because they're closer to me in power then. Eventually I end up growing exponentially (and they end up shrinking at the same rate

) so they'll be more inclined to make peace at any cost.

ThaddeusAlexander · October 11, 2002, 17:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Traelin

Yeah I seem to have that happen in every game I play. Usually it's before the late Industrial though, because they're closer to me in power then. Eventually I end up growing exponentially (and they end up shrinking at the same rate

) so they'll be more inclined to make peace at any cost.

Yeah but its just such a torn in the @$$ !!!

grrr...

Cheers
~Thadalex

Egyptian · October 11, 2002, 17:32

I've never seen the AI willing to accept peace that quickly, but I have seen some weird wars. I've read a lot on this forum that the AI does not like to use nuclear weapons. However, a few games ago, I was on Emperor level as Egyptian. The Persians were going to be the next victims of my warmongering, and they were very powerful. My spy informed me that they had two ICBMs, and I did not have any. I had researched Computers, Ecology and Synthetic Fibers while Persia went for nuclear power and satellites. I declared war on him and was not too worried about the nukes because the AI suppposedly doesn't like to use them. His first turn at war he fires both nukes at me, hammering one of my top cities, and one other coastal city built half on tundra. I couldn't belive it! After swearing at the Persians, I quickly destroyed his two cities with Aluminum resources, keeping him from building any more nukes or any more spaceship parts. (He had built one part and was in the process of building five more and I had yet to start my spaceship.) I destroyed his capital, thus his spaceship, and proceeded to win the game soon after by domination.

On the topic of civs declaring war, I've noticed that with 1.29, civs will OFTEN declare war on me one turn after declaring peace. With previouys versions, the AI was unlikely to do this in order to protect their reputation, but they don't seem to care anymore.

Solomyr · October 11, 2002, 17:47

that the AI won't start a war again right away is not my experience with 1.21...and i have been playing for quite some time and have yet to upgrade (i've crap for this elsewhere, don't bother with it now). i'll be a war with someone i don't want to fight anymore, and after my tanks rock their cav's, they still want more. after i make peace on even terms...i have just figured the AI was stupid...

Sheik · October 11, 2002, 18:09

Quote:

AI does not like to use nuclear weapons

In the editor you can set how agressive a civ is I think they should let you set how willing a civ is to use nukes also.

ThaddeusAlexander · October 11, 2002, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Egyptian
On the topic of civs declaring war, I've noticed that with 1.29, civs will OFTEN declare war on me one turn after declaring peace. With previouys versions, the AI was unlikely to do this in order to protect their reputation, but they don't seem to care anymore.

I think the AI is more goal driven. Screw their reputation if you're a big threat to their goals.

Cheers
~Thadalex

Carver · October 12, 2002, 20:48

I think it's safe to say that SOMETIMES the AI views a peace treaty simply as a temporary cease-fire. Often, I've signed a peace deal and continued to watch AI troops build up right outside my border (or sometimes inside my borders); and, ineveitably, they either launch a suprise attack or make a rediculous demand for continued peace. ...bastards

Tattila the Hun · October 13, 2002, 04:03

Have you experienced this? In endgame, my sole adversary had 9 ICBM's. A war broke out, and after couple of turn hell started raining on my cities. First one struck my top production centre, the next 2-9 a city with 2 pop, no resource, tundra, no troops close by (his or mine). Wonder if he was trying to melt the icecaps and flood me?

wilbill · October 14, 2002, 02:19

quote:

Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander
I offer peace, they accept. I ask them to leave, they declare war. All in the same diplomacy thread. ARGH!!

Playing at Regent I've noticed the AI civs like to have Right of Passage with everyone. As if it's "I trust you enough to allow you into my territory."

I'd tended to avoid ROP's since it's easy to end up with a couple of civs tromping back & forth getting in the way of things and nobody likes having somebody else's war fought on your territory.

Since noticing the AI's like ROP's, I've been more agreeable to them and it seems as if ROP's make it a little easier to stay on their good side longer. Of course once you're ahead in points, power, culture - any or all, it gets tougher to stay on good terms.

vmxa1 · October 14, 2002, 03:19

That about sums it up.

problem_child · October 14, 2002, 08:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeeve
Just how many of their cities did you Nuke?

Also, you're sure you were not already in a state of war with them, right?

I have seen some instances of the AI actually accepting peace one turn later, but that is usually because they are on the verge of annihilation.

Yes I was already at war with them, and they had about fourteen ICBMs and one tactical nuke (with Trident

) to my twenty one ICBMs (I can't see the point of sporting tactical nukes)

What suprised me was that they let me get away with nuking all twenty one of their cities (even the little ones, I had to be sure of what I like to call Total Decoherance)
They still had their fourteen nukes after that, but after unleashing all my mushroom-makers in a first strike and then having the cheek to offer the bastards peace, they accepted! A real human would strike back on general principal, I know the AI aint human but... should it at least do a better job of pretending? I say AI bloody-mindedness factor could stand to be a little higher in this instance.

PS, I've also had nuclear wars (before it occured to me to offer even-peace immediately) where the AI wastes most of its nukes hitting the same moderately important city again and again! In one variation of the Roman game, the city of Ravena ended up taking at least seven for the team, all it had of special interest was the Pentagon.

-Don't you just love an atomic sunrise

problem_child · October 14, 2002, 10:18

Quote:

Originally posted by mattcj

I think you mean "suffice" ?

well spotted, you're right- I did mean suffice, I was in a hurry when I tapped that out, there's no need to give me the roll-eye for it though, that just makes you look like a bit of a pr*ck.

problem_child · October 14, 2002, 10:31

I agree with the point made about ROPT to decrease the likelyhood of wars. I find it's often a good idea to encourage civs that look like their spoilin for a fight to attack your enemies (if you have tech you don't mind selling, you can even get civs to pay for the privalege of fighting your wars for you, I had this one game were I got the Aztecs to pay me upto 44g per turn (14-16th centuaries) just for tech and fighting the threats on other borders. I managed to play it so that by the time the Aztecs took me on they were weakened from years of waging wars and paying Egypt (me). Then when they got rowdy (just like I knew they would) I got everybody else on the continent to beat up on them (again, whilst paying me- Egypt, per turn for the pleasure)

Also I've noticed that the AI almost seems to be concerned about saving face sometimes. If you tell them 'Our troops approach your cities..' etc, they usually refuse to talk peace, but if you go into negotiation and work your way down to them paying you whatever little money they have (plus per-turn payments) they see sense more often. I love ending a war with the other side paying out more then they can afford. Victory thru povertification dude

Of course I always click on 'Our troops approach...' first anyway, just so they know I consider myself to be the winning team (pure superstition of course, I'm sure Sorens AI can't really be psyched so to speak, but what the hey)

problem_child · October 14, 2002, 10:45

Oh yeah- and one more post for today, does anybody bother with Tactical Nukes?

I find usually ICBMs are available shortly after TacNukes are available, at least by the time you've built, loaded and deployed your subs, so why bother?

ThaddeusAlexander · October 14, 2002, 12:23

Quote:

Originally posted by problem_child
Oh yeah- and one more post for today, does anybody bother with Tactical Nukes?

I find usually ICBMs are available shortly after TacNukes are available, at least by the time you've built, loaded and deployed your subs, so why bother?

TacNukes are cheaper ... since I never actually use nukes, I build basic nukes because they give you the same boost to your power rating as ICBMs but much cheaper.

Cheers
~Thadalex

1 · October 14, 2002, 20:20

Tactical nukes have one huge advantage that will become incredibly even more important with multiplayer.... they're mobile. And if they are in a sub, they are also invisible. Anyone can plant a spy and scout out your cities to see which ones have ICBMS (ie... which ones to take out the first turn of war) but there is no way to find out where someone has hidden that one sub with one nuke... that is most likely chugging full speed at your capital. (well unless you spend tons of production on AEGIS, which to cover your typical coast line, would just be completely infeasible to set up in a way to see them before that sub moves in those final 5 spaces and launchs) I also, tactical nukes are very effective on border cities, because they are cheaper than ICBMS.

Carver · October 14, 2002, 23:19

1 thing 1, the ICBMs down in their silos always survive nuclear strikes. However, I build tacts too. I want nukes ASAP so I don't get left behind. Not being able to respond to a nuke attack in kind sux.

Unspeakable Horror · October 15, 2002, 09:01

Quote:

Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander
There's no AI bug. If America in your game has no nukes of any kind and they know you do, then they'll want peace and fast. Don't forget also that your POWER at the start of your nukefest that turn must have been massive because nukes add a lot to your power, and if the AI is at war with someone more powerful then they'll probably want peace.

But here's something odd that happened to me the other night ... I make a peace treaty with the AI and then I ask them to move their troops and they declare war on me again!

I offer peace, they accept. I ask them to leave, they declare war. All in the same diplomacy thread. ARGH!!

Cheers
~Thadalex

I think that you spend too much time in Apolyton

ThaddeusAlexander · October 15, 2002, 11:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Carlos113
I think that you spend too much time in Apolyton

Well thread was the best word i could think of in my

enraged

state

Got a better one?

Cheers
~Thadalex

problem_child · October 15, 2002, 12:29

Quote:

Originally posted by 1
Tactical nukes have one huge advantage that will become incredibly even more important with multiplayer.... they're mobile. And if they are in a sub, they are also invisible. Anyone can plant a spy and scout out your cities to see which ones have ICBMS (ie... which ones to take out the first turn of war) but there is no way to find out where someone has hidden that one sub with one nuke... that is most likely chugging full speed at your capital. (well unless you spend tons of production on AEGIS, which to cover your typical coast line, would just be completely infeasible to set up in a way to see them before that sub moves in those final 5 spaces and launchs) I also, tactical nukes are very effective on border cities, because they are cheaper than ICBMS.

Carver said the first thing I wuz gonna say (ICBMs always survive strikes) before I realized this- that's the advantage I had thought the Tacs give. But not only is this untrue, it's also very easy to sow the seas with cheap conventional submarines to spot enemy nuclear subs, meaning for me- Aegis Cruisers are largely pointless too, although if I have them- I'll usually include them in my Carrier fleets.

Still, I love it when the AI builds Tacs and has the nuclear subs too, this adds that tention, knowing an arch-rival could have subs laying in wait in the innocent looking seas just off my coast- waiting for when I'm feelin lucky

Solomyr · October 15, 2002, 14:38

just the talk of multiplayer is getting me excited...and the fact that i'm getting high speed connection tomorrow

oh, damn my courses

Unspeakable Horror · October 15, 2002, 18:06

Quote:

Originally posted by ThaddeusAlexander

Well thread was the best word i could think of in my

enraged

state

Got a better one?

Cheers
~Thadalex

Actually... no

*Carlos113 thinks that he is spending to much time in Apolyton too

HazieDaVampire · October 15, 2002, 18:13

i cant wait to nuke the **** out of sombody on-line! I always have a super nuke arsenal! I can usualy wipe out my enemy 2 times over, and destroy all of the world useful citys leaving just the city places with 3 pop points! Then i can run my little NBC troops around and let them clean up the mess for me!

I WANT TO PUSH THAT DARN RED BUTTON!

Solomyr · October 15, 2002, 18:44

alright, but here is the question i have for you guys: i have never gotten into a nuke war, how the heck are you guys doing it. but the modern age i have at least a 2 tech lead, and my i rock everyone when it comes to production. are y'all playing at deity, is that why it is some competitive? i hear about these great games, and i am over here getting

bored at the monarch level

Keeper of Hell · October 15, 2002, 18:58

RoP on Regent on up is a dangerous proposition. Sub-Regent, the AI is usally both peaceful enough and concerned about its reputation enough that it won't abuse RoPs. But playing on Regent, I've had AIs exploit RoPs to attack a back-line city (typically the capital, or the next largest one with no defenders). Fortunately, the AI misuses the tactic horribly; rather than moving all their troops up to striking position, they send a single unit on the attack, thus igniting a war and cancelling the RoP. I guess the point of all this is don't let anyone have a RoP if you don't have to.

1 · October 15, 2002, 23:07

I know the nukes are immune to nukes. But what I ment of "where to strike first" is where your enemy will deploy troops to, and try to take the first turn, via coastal landings, or using the ROP rape, etc. The cities with ICBMS, will be what is taken out the soonest. Tactical nukes don't have that same problem. But your impression from what I said is completely understandable.