Korean UU?

[doom_hoplite72]

Does anyone actually know the stats for the korean Hwacha e.g. actual bombard stats and resource req.

[Athitis]

I have heard it is a cannon with 150% greater bombarment capability.

Could someone enlighten me about the Korean civ? Are they so imporant as to have them in the game? (just asking because I do not know anything about them, that's all).

[LionQ]

No, I don't think there that important that they should be in the game. A Israelian Civ instead would be much better. More informatie on http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=61131.

And why is the Corean CSU a Cannon? Were the Coreans that good in artillery?

[Caliban]

Hm... let's think about who invented gunpowder...

The Israelis?

Maybe we'll see an Hebrew/Israeli civ in another exp.

[KaiserIsak]

Actually, i think the incas is a much better adition to the game then both the hebrews and the koreans.

[Kingof the Apes]

Originally posted by Caliban
Hm... let's think about who invented gunpowder...

I believe it was the Chinese?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Athitis
I have heard it is a cannon with 150% greater bombarment capability.

Could someone enlighten me about the Korean civ? Are they so imporant as to have them in the game? (just asking because I do not know anything about them, that's all).

Sure, they had a once flourishing civilization long ago. they had their time of expansion when they extended all the way to Northern Manchuria and was economically quite strong when they dominated Far east asian sea trades and held down pirate activities. They had brief moment of scientific enlightments and they developed many interesting invention such as printing press and ironclad before west had heard of those things but as for whether they should be in the game?

No more or less than any decent civilization in the world. I beleive any civilization in the world deserve to be in a game called civiliation, but I'd take the Incas over Korea anyday.

EDIT: BTW Chinese invented gunpowder. But was limited to mostly firework spectacle and very rare military usage. (they had a form of ancient rockets) knowledge was trade thru Arabian hands to the Europeans who immediately saw the destructive potential and created a musket which turned out to be useless until they refined the art of building guns.

[History Guy]

The Koreans certainly deserve to be included, perhaps more than the Inca (though perhaps a bit less than the Israelites). They had, after all, one of the greatest scientific civilizations of the medieval period. They were certainly more of a civilization than the Mongols, for example. The Koreans invented movable type; the Mongols invented yurts...

[siredgar]

Go read the Korea thread.

To summarize a bit here:

1. The Koreans have 5,000 years of continuous history as a nation without interruption. The Israelites were mostly wanderers and have had a modern nation-state for less than 60 years now. The Inca civilization lasted only about 200 years before it was collapsed to a few dozen Spanish invaders.

2. The Koreans were only successfully invaded twice: once by the Mongols who conquered pretty much everyone in Eurasia and once by tricky diplomatic maneuvering by the Japanese. Compare that to England which was invaded by the Vikings, Danes, Anglo-Saxons, Normans, etc even though they were separated on an island.

3. At one point, the Koreans conquered a territory in Manchuria and Siberia roughly the size of all of Western Europe.

4. The Koreans invented the world's first movable type, ironclad vessel, udometer, etc. What did the Israelites and Incans invent?

5. The Koreans invented one of the world's most phonetically accurate and scientific alphabets. Don't knock on this accomplishment because Western Civilization is largely based on a single alphabet system, while the Koreans have their own.

6. The Koreans have a unique and distinguished culture and civilization. At its height, an Arab visitor described it as one of the most advanced civilizations in the world. The people studied philosophy, literature, poetry, painting, calligraphy, etc. For a long time, the Chinese considered the Koreans the only other group of civilized people in "the world".

The Koreans should have had the Turtleboat as their UU, in my opinion.

Most of the people who want the Israelites is because they want to pit them against the Arabs. Most of the people who want the Incans want to fill that empty space in South America.

If you already have so many "worthy" European civs, why not put some worthy Asian ones in there, too. By adding the Koreans, they made the right choice.

[gsmoove23]

Don't knock the Incans, they held an enormous mountainous territory without the aid of horses, their only large domesticated animal being the llama, not fit for ridin'. When the spanish conquered the Inca they were aided mostly by disease which has nothing to do with spanish scientific achievement. Considering the late start all of the Americas seems to have had, I think its unfair to compare with Europe whose achievements rest squarely on the back of Egyptian, MidEastern, Greek and Roman civs. Not to mention gunpowder from the Chinese. Incas, Aztecs and Maya didn't have the headstart of having all the hardwork done for em by someone else.

Isn't the Korean UU a rocket launcher of some sort? Don't laugh, I seem to remember them putting fireworks to a military use.

[FrustratedPoet]

Originally posted by siredgar
Compare that to England which was invaded by the Vikings, Danes, Anglo-Saxons, Normans, etc even though they were separated on an island.

England IS the Vikings-Anglo-Saxons-Normans. The English were the invaders, not the invaded. There hasn't been a successful military invasion of the island for almost a thousand years.

It was the Celts who lived in the southern part of the Island that were conquered by the invaders. The Celts in Scotland survived much better.

The word 'England' is derived from 'Angland' - i.e. "The Land of the Angles".

I understand what you're saying, though. What I'm writing here is mostly just semantics.

And FWIW, I think the Koreans (and Celts) should definitely be in PtW.

But we don't want another one of these threads, do we?

[Minmaster]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Isn't the Korean UU a rocket launcher of some sort? Don't laugh, I seem to remember them putting fireworks to a military use.

yes if i remember correctly, when i went to school in korea, the history textbook credited invention of gunpowder to this one korean guy going to china or something and saw all these fireworks and he got an idea to use them in a different way, perhaps w/ military weapons. and yea the rocket launcher thing probably was one of the earliest weapons using the gunpowder

[Zero]

Originally posted by History Guy
The Koreans certainly deserve to be included, perhaps more than the Inca (though perhaps a bit less than the Israelites). They had, after all, one of the greatest scientific civilizations of the medieval period. They were certainly more of a civilization than the Mongols, for example. The Koreans invented movable type; the Mongols invented yurts...

does one civilization necessarily have to be 'civilized' to be a great civilization?

Koreans do deserve to be in the game, but my pint is so do other civs that aren't in the game. Just too bad you can't have unlimited civs in game but thats wat modding is for~

[Zero]

Originally posted by siredgar
Go read the Korea thread.

To summarize a bit here:

1. The Koreans have 5,000 years of continuous history as a nation without interruption. The Israelites were mostly wanderers and have had a modern nation-state for less than 60 years now. The Inca civilization lasted only about 200 years before it was collapsed to a few dozen Spanish invaders.

2. The Koreans were only successfully invaded twice: once by the Mongols who conquered pretty much everyone in Eurasia and once by tricky diplomatic maneuvering by the Japanese. Compare that to England which was invaded by the Vikings, Danes, Anglo-Saxons, Normans, etc even though they were separated on an island.

3. At one point, the Koreans conquered a territory in Manchuria and Siberia roughly the size of all of Western Europe.

4. The Koreans invented the world's first movable type, ironclad vessel, udometer, etc. What did the Israelites and Incans invent?

5. The Koreans invented one of the world's most phonetically accurate and scientific alphabets. Don't knock on this accomplishment because Western Civilization is largely based on a single alphabet system, while the Koreans have their own.

6. The Koreans have a unique and distinguished culture and civilization. At its height, an Arab visitor described it as one of the most advanced civilizations in the world. The people studied philosophy, literature, poetry, painting, calligraphy, etc. For a long time, the Chinese considered the Koreans the only other group of civilized people in "the world".

The Koreans should have had the Turtleboat as their UU, in my opinion.

Most of the people who want the Israelites is because they want to pit them against the Arabs. Most of the people who want the Incans want to fill that empty space in South America.

If you already have so many "worthy" European civs, why not put some worthy Asian ones in there, too. By adding the Koreans, they made the right choice.

It would be cool if I agreed with you 100% and I was a blind partior but the facts arent exactly how you stated.

1. Empire of what we know as Korea was divided into three kingdom for much of its history. Bloody struggle for territory ran most of its history until Shinra and Koryo unifed the empire.

2. Well that is true, but most of its ancient "independent" period, Korea served under Chinese sphere of influence as a much like "satellite nation" of Eastern Europe of USSR.

3. True.

4. True, but Israelis and Incans are great civ in theri own respect.

5. Eh I guess. Its a good system but im not sure about being the best. The most simplest writing system I've learned is Japanese. Although they have three sets of writing, Hiragana and Katakana is so much easier than learning Korean. Korean has too many silent letters or phonetically converted phrases. Kanji is same as Korean Han Mun so that nullfies the difficulty.
6. True.

[thinkingamer]

Empire of what we know as Korea was divided into three kingdom for much of its history.

that's only from around 0 a.d. to 668 a.d.

Well that is true, but most of its ancient "independent" period, Korea served under Chinese sphere of influence as a much like "satellite nation" of Eastern Europe of USSR.

not really.... in www.dictionary.com satellite means "A nation dominated politically and economically by another nation. "

until 1637 a.d. when Manchus attacked Choson (Koreans were declining from late 16th centrury, anyway) Korea was not a "satellite".

In fact in 613 a.d., China Sui (50 years before chinese golden age) attacked Koguryo (one of the 3 kingdoms in Korea at the time) with more than 1,100,000 men (its recorded that the army was 240 miles long when marched to Korea) and lost the war. I do like to emphasize this war, because it's like British isles being able to able to defend itself from ALL Roman Empire. This proves that Korea was a growing threat to the Chinese empire, and by the way China continually tried to weaken Korea, until Korea lost territorial control in Manchuria (926 a.d.)

Afterwards, Korea did pay tribute to China, but really it was for strengthen friendship (between a smaller kingdom with the larger kingdom) and a coorporation agaist the northern barbarians (after Tang, northern barbarians became quite more powerful).

Eh I guess. Its a good system but im not sure about being the best. The most simplest writing system I've learned is Japanese. Although they have three sets of writing, Hiragana and Katakana is so much easier than learning Korean. Korean has too many silent letters or phonetically converted phrases. Kanji is same as Korean Han Mun so that nullfies the difficulty.

I guess that's just a personal opinion. I had several friends (in Korean school) studing Korean, Chinese, and Japanese, but all of them claimed that Korean was the easiest (and believe me, they spent equal time each of them). Also in terms of "phonetical accuracy" no other alphabet comes close to Korean (that i know of).

I estimate that Korean language is a little easier than Spanish for a Asian, and Spanish is easier than Korean for Europeans (not "little easier" because all European language uses Phonetian Alphabet).

[Athitis]

After reading all these posts, I look forward in playing with the Koreans. Great info everyone.

[siredgar]

Originally posted by gsmoove23
Don't knock the Incans, they held an enormous mountainous territory without the aid of horses, their only large domesticated animal being the llama, not fit for ridin'. When the spanish conquered the Inca they were aided mostly by disease which has nothing to do with spanish scientific achievement. Considering the late start all of the Americas seems to have had, I think its unfair to compare with Europe whose achievements rest squarely on the back of Egyptian, MidEastern, Greek and Roman civs. Not to mention gunpowder from the Chinese. Incas, Aztecs and Maya didn't have the headstart of having all the hardwork done for em by someone else.

You're right and I agree with you 100%. I do not wish to knock on other civilizations. However, I was responding to the comparison of Korean civilization with that of the Incans and Israelites! While the Incans did have an impressive road and communication system and a large amount of territory. The fact is they are one of the most overrated civilizations in history. They only lasted about 200 years and were wiped out by a single invasion led by a few dozen Spaniards (accompanied by their diseases). You have a very good point about the fact that their isolation did not help them in terms of gaining from previous knowledge. However, it is their isolation that most likely allowed them to survive and flourish for that short time. It is also one of the key, if not THE key, motivation behind all the people who want to put them in Civ3 (not their achievements.)

[siredgar]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet


England IS the Vikings-Anglo-Saxons-Normans. The English were the invaders, not the invaded. There hasn't been a successful military invasion of the island for almost a thousand years.

It was the Celts who lived in the southern part of the Island that were conquered by the invaders. The Celts in Scotland survived much better.

The word 'England' is derived from 'Angland' - i.e. "The Land of the Angles".

I understand what you're saying, though. What I'm writing here is mostly just semantics.

And FWIW, I think the Koreans (and Celts) should definitely be in PtW.

But we don't want another one of these threads, do we?

Yes, I should have been a bit more clear. The history of the British Isles is quite complex, especially in its early stages. It is difficult to determine who exactly the "British" are. I would say it's a mix of all these peoples, but I guess what I referring to was primarily the "Britons" which would include the Celts to a large degree.

Anyhow, I'd like to see the Celts in there, too. But in some ways they were already included by putting the English, French, and Germans in the game.

[rob.derosa]

Originally posted by FrustratedPoet There hasn't been a successful military invasion of the island for almost a thousand years.

Who else can boast a stat like that

[siredgar]

Originally posted by Calc II


It would be cool if I agreed with you 100% and I was a blind partior but the facts arent exactly how you stated.

1. Empire of what we know as Korea was divided into three kingdom for much of its history. Bloody struggle for territory ran most of its history until Shinra and Koryo unifed the empire.

2. Well that is true, but most of its ancient "independent" period, Korea served under Chinese sphere of influence as a much like "satellite nation" of Eastern Europe of USSR.

1. The three kingdoms period was only a part of the long history of Korea. Anyhow, it IS a part of Korean history just like the Carolingian or Merovingian dynasties were a part of French history.

2. Korea was never a "satellite nation" of any other country. After many years of fighting with the Chinese and seeing them grow in power and expand in population and territory, the Koreans basically came to a truce with them. In a feudal-type system, the Chinese leader became Emperor and the Korean leader became King. The latter paid tribute to the former, but the two nations were pretty much entirely independent. Even this "tribute" was more like trade because the Emperor often returned more gifts back to the King than received. It was mostly symbolic. The Chinese Emperor ran his country and the Korean King ran his own. The two cultures influenced each other (althought admittedly, China was culturally superior and had greater influence) and there was a trade, but these were really two independent nations. The Chinese did not really meddle in the affairs of the Koreans until the 19th century, when the Western powers began their incursions.

Even North Korea was never considered a "satellite nation" under the Soviet Union like the Eastern European states. Most likely, the decision to invade South Korea in 1950 was made by Kim Il Sung with Stalin's consent. It was not a puppet regime. The Soviets provided military and economic aid, but there were no troops of theirs in North Korea ever (besides some advisors and technicians). This is dissimilar to the situation with Eastern Europe, where you indeed had Soviet troops and invasions (Prague, Budapest).

[siredgar]

Originally posted by rob.derosa


Who else can boast a stat like that

If I'm not mistaken, I think both Korea and Japan can.