"He had a nasty reputation as a cruel dude..." - Page 2

Kingof the Apes · October 16, 2002, 00:33

Nukes are unrebasable.(Is that a word?)

I got scared when I accidently moved one onto some unroaded tile, but luckily they arent the nukes from Civ2

Arrian · October 16, 2002, 13:10

Well, I figured since I can't play my Japan game for a while, why not start a different Emperor game? So I picked Egypt, and turned off cultural linking (I'm having enough trouble without facing Greece and Rome). And then, by the grace of the Civ gods, I was given a starting location to die for: FIVE cows (3 plains, 2 grass) with a river. Other terrain was irrelevant for some time. I caved and built my first few cities with overlap so they could use the outermost cows while Thebes pumped settlers.

I was also provided with an elite warrior from popping barbs from a hut, so I decided to pick a fight with America. I whacked a warrior/settler team and then did my best to use my elite w/o getting overwhelmed. After a short while, I made peace in return for 4 techs & money.

After Round I with Abe, I built up my forces - first vet warriors for swordsmen, and then a lot of war chariots. The swords crushed America, this time taking Washington & leaving them with only 2 cities, and the Aztecs, which netted me several cities and the Oracle.
Tenochticlan rushed spear, temple, and began the forbidden.

I got Monarchy, switched, and unleashed the chariot horde on Germany (Bismarck was remarkably passive in this game, I think because he had a lot of room to expand). My GA netted me the GL and the HG. I knocked Germany to 1 city. I also chose to purchase a courthouse in Tenochticlan and managed to squeeze 3 shields/turn out of it during the GA, which sped up the FP build. Shortly after the end of my GA, I switched to republic.

At this point, the world hated me. The Iroquois, Japanese and Zulu were untouched by my rampage, and all were "furious." Happily, I was able to gift a luxury to Japan to keep them happy, and they are between me and Shaka. It was Hiawatha that decided to be a punk. Haven't you always dreamt of fending off Mounted Warriors with war chariots and swordsmen? Aided by some admittedly lucky combat rolls (it helps when the AI fails to produce veteran units), I managed to inflict heavy casualties and take 2 cities. Japan, whom I had paid off for an alliance, ducked out early, so I made peace too, figuring I'd finish the job with Knights.

Unfortunately for me, though I had taken 2 sources of iron away from the Iroquois, they still had 1, and so when I chose not to renew the peace treaty, I was facing pikes & knights. It hurt, but I took down most of their empire. They're down to 5 cities, and I will be able to send in Cavalry in the near future. I wouldn't bother, but Salamanca has the Pyramids and Sun Tzu.

So, the situation: 890AD. 4 turns to Banking. I'm the only one with printing press & music theory, but Japan and Zulu have chemistry on me. Wonders: GL, HG, Oracle, Sistine, Leo's, Bach's, Copernicus in 5 - unopposed. I have local access to 5 luxuries. I have 28 knights left, plus some elite chariots, horses and swords. I have a 3-knight army and the HE, curteousy of my one and only leader thus far. England is apparently out there somewhere in the blackness, but they hardly matter. The only civ that scares me now is Japan. I have seen the enemy, and they are Samurai.

The current plan is to finish Banking, research Demo and try to make a deal for chem (printing press plus a luxury will hopefully do it), research Econ (already prebuilding Smiths) and then a straight beeline for Mil Tradition. While this is happening, I intend to take my elite knights, wc's and horsemen to wipe out the Germans, who have 2 cities totally surrounded by my territory. This should take 1 turn, and if I get a leader, *presto* Smith's, and the prebuild can be a Bank or Wall Street.

-Arrian

jshelr · October 16, 2002, 13:39

You appear to have trained adequately for the promotion to Emperor.

Theseus · October 16, 2002, 14:28

Killer game.

Have Japan and Zulu had there GAs yet?

Arrian · October 16, 2002, 16:06

Theseus,

That's precisely what I'm afraid of - I'm almost positive that neither of them has. The Iroquois and I have basically all the wonders, so ixnay on that route. Japan participated in my first Iroquois war, but with swordsmen. We all got Chivalry at the same time (thanks, GL!). I have no knowledge of the Zulu ever fighting.

Both of them have pretty nice land, so a GA would be powerful. I am considering 2 possible approaches:

1) Gather a large force of Cavalry pre-nationalism and attack Japan, paying off the Zulu for an alliance.
2) Wait for Tanks, possibly finding and invading England with my Cavalry.

Both are tempting. The first city I would take in an invasion of Japan has dyes, which I lack. Nothing like gaining another 3 happy faces per city to soften the WW hit. I hurt my strongest rival sooner rather than later, and ensure that I have the intiative in the showdown.

On the other hand, I will surely trigger a Japanese GA, and my armed forces aren't really all that big. If I suffer heavy casualties due to a bad RNG string and/or the Japanese production boost (more units), I will bog down. That's what happened in my 2nd Iroquois war. I bogged down and eventually had to leave them alone for a bit. Of course I DID win the war...

Much to ponder

By the way, this game cost me a 1/2 vacation day. I'm such an addict. I went to bed at 2:30am and ended up being so tired that I called in and took the morning off. Sigh. On the upside, a 1/2 day is four hours, and I got in at 12:30... so I have 25mins to go. Muwahaha!

-Arrian

Theseus · October 16, 2002, 16:23

Good, you can get back to the game (and AU, ahem).

I like the first approach, but I'd change the order a little.

After you cause a German 'existence failure' (someone came up with that today or yesterday...

), get yourself up to about 40 Knights. For the moment, they'll be sheerly a defensive ready force.

At this point, enter into an alliance with Shaka against Toku. This'll trigger both GAs, the sooner the better.

Don;t go anywhere!! While this is going on, make sure you build 10 Galleys. Make sure that you have the moola for all your upgrades.

When you hit Mil Trad, send 10 Cavs in to help Shaka (he'll prolly need it).

When you hit Astronomy, send out the upgraded Caravel fleet with 30 Cavs. Hit Toku from behind... his Sammies will be at the Zulu front.

While that's going on, you can continue to send in reinforcements through Zululand. I'm assuming the dyes city is near there.

My big points: Trigger the two GAs as soon as you can. Don't wait for Nationalism. Take Toku down in a big way, not just grabbing a few cities.

vmxa1 · October 16, 2002, 16:25

Don't feel bad, I stayed up till 3am playing Moo on game I could have voted myself the win anytime it came up. At least I do not have to get up and go to work.
I am so jealous of all the players who manage to get the AI to give up multiple techs for peace. I do not have the skill/luck or charm. No matter what level I am playing at, how much stronger I am they barely give 1 or maybe a rare 2nd one. Alright enough whinning.

Arrian · October 16, 2002, 16:39

Theseus,

A couple of quick points before I go:

1) yeah, sorry about being MIA on the AU games. Dunno why I've been that way... perhaps because I am still trying to get used to Emperor and most of you guys made the jump a while ago.

2) Geography: Japan is to my west... specifically, directly west of my secondary core (FP, former Azteca). There is a nice little chokepoint that seperates their main empire from the two cities they have on my side. They have a city at the chokepoint (the aforementioned dyes city). Zululand is to the NW of Japan. If I fight Japan, they will encounter a 2-front war. The 2nd city after the dyes city is Kyoto. This makes me rather confident. Anyway, no need for a seaborne end-around.

It is my intention to do this sooner rather than later, but it all depends on how far Japan gets in tech while I'm setting it up. If I'm ready to go and Japan lacks nationalism, it's full speed ahead and damn the Samurai. If they do have nationalism, I will have to think long and hard about it. I may still go, though.

-Arrian

Theseus · October 16, 2002, 17:00

Doh! I read the geography backwards.

I would just go for it, and then protect the chokepoint for a while, and prior to Nationalism go at Toku with Cavs.

Arrian · October 17, 2002, 09:34

As it turned out, Toku came for me. Which allowed me to take my time in the war without incurring bad WW. About five turns into the war, I discovered nationalism, so I had riflemen and cav vs. his cav, sam, and muskets. My factories were also coming online, so I was able to produce new units much faster than he was, without really trying.

I wiped them out, capturing nearly all of Japan. Then I fortified my new border with Zululand and waited. I didn't have to wait long. Rather predictably, Shaka attacked me. I had placed my border units such that he either had to leave his cavalry out in open ground next to a city, or attack fortified riflemen on hills or mountains.

He chose the open ground, and his cavalry died. I discovered, however, as I marched forward, that he had quite a few cavalry, and wasn't afraid of attacking infantry with them (rep parts was nicely timed). By this point I had Univ Suffrage and Hoover, and was building police stations. I also had 7 luxuries (6 of my own, 1 via trade w/the English). So I decided to take it slow and just break things.

I merrily razed my way through shaka's empire, cutting it in two, and destroying the southern half (and one northern city just for fun with a 2-galleon end-around). He had some riflemen, but it didn't matter anymore. Not when I was chewing up his defenses with 10+ artillery prior to attacking. I kept exactly 1 Zulu city - the one that controls the world's gems supply. Then I made peace, and ringed the now-empty "dead zone" with extra units. No one gets to build there, ever.

A quick backtrack: shortly before being attacked by Japan, I was able to make contact with the English before anyone else. They had a large island that was pretty far out in the middle of nowhere, so I decided to cultivate them rather than invade them. I made a series of trades to get their luxury and as much money as possible out of them. When Shaka declared war on me, I signed an MPP with Liz. They're still fighting each other.

It's now 14somethingorotherAD, I'm researching Mass Production, my cities have hospitals, 99% of them love me (so says F11)... you know how it goes. At this point I'm simply basking in the glory. I could probably win at any time simply by building cities in the "dead zone."

-Arrian, who proceeded to stay up to THREE IN THE FREAKIN' MORNING playing this ridiculous game.

Jaybe · October 17, 2002, 12:43

Quote:

-Arrian, who proceeded to stay up to THREE IN THE FREAKIN' MORNING playing this ridiculous game.

That's the way to do it, Arrian!

I haven't done that on a worknight for several months.

Arrian · October 17, 2002, 13:10

No, bad. Not functioning... so sleepy... must do work... eyes hurt... caffeine not working... bad... pain...

Harovan · October 17, 2002, 13:30

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
No, bad. Not functioning... so sleepy... must do work... eyes hurt... caffeine not working... bad... pain...

Sounds familiar to me

.

Arrian · October 17, 2002, 14:05

It was worth it to have such a good game on Emperor. Serious confidence boost, lemme tell ya. And I experienced something I hadn't felt in a while: fear. I have felt disappointment and/or annoyance recently, but not real fear. As in "wow, if they hit me now, I'm not really sure I could stop them." A little of that is healty. AU107, the spoilers of which I've been reading, is another thing altogether.

Oddly enough, the reason I jumped up to Emperor was to have a Modern Age showdown with all the cool gizmos you can play with (tanks, planes, ships, oh my!). But this one didn't play out that way. The Japanese and then the Zulu just couldn't wait. So the game is now essentially over and I've barely gotten infantry.

I suppose I could milk it and later invade England once I have all my toys.

-Arrian

Theseus · October 17, 2002, 16:10

WOW!!! You are an obsessed Civkiller... congrats, I knew you could trounce Emperor.

Arrian · October 17, 2002, 16:22

Thanks, but note the start spot (*cough5cowscough*). Thats good even by my standards

But I am very happy about how the game went. Unfortunately, this will undoubtably spoil me.

When I first really crushed the game on Monarch, I began the search for Ultimate Power (tm), and since then have been unable to accept a "normal" win. I've grown soft in a way. The next few games I plain will hurt, 'cause there isn't a snowball's chance in hell they will live up to this one.

-Arrian

Harovan · October 17, 2002, 16:54

Arrian, welcome in the Emperor's club

. Guess it was about time to advance, wasn't it?

.

I won an almost "Ultimate Power" game a month ago, with the French on Emperor. That was, when I still had time to play

. It was on a huge map with 16 civs, AU mod 1.04. My intent was to play a mainly builder game with short decisive conquests. So no leader roulette. Of course, with 15 AI civs with a 20% bonus competing, there was no chance to build more than one ancient wonder. So I built the Great Library for good, without a leader.

I made contact to all civs very fast, but until the other civs had Navigation, didn't sell the contact and even risked a couple of wars, because I didn't give in to bullies. My tech brokering kept me the most advanced civ and I build every Wonder beginning with the Sistine. Except Longevity (available with Medicine), that is, this wonder is just too crappy. The Indians built it roughly 100 turns after I could have finished it. I concentrated on research and stayed mostly peaceful, except that I conquered my 2 direct neighbors Egypt and Russia. Germany sneak attacked me later with Knights (its best) and was conquered with Tanks (my best). Other sneak attacks (Aztecs, Indians, Americans) I punished by taking away 1 or 2 luxury cities. I started with 1 luxury (only one type on the whole continent!) and ended with 5 own and 3 easily traded for luxuries.

Although not playing for conquest, I was the unmatched champion on the map. My military was the largest and best equipped. I had a huge navy and a good airforce. When I hit the modern age, I was about 10 techs ahead. I researched almost the whole Modern age (in AU 1.04 the Spaceship is very delayed). When I launched the Spaceship, I was 11 techs ahead. I scored about 6500.

I wanted to make a spoiler or a website about it, as strategy guide, because I used so many basic techniques like blocking, ship chaining and made some good screenshots, but time... oh well.

Here's one pic about my progress. It's not about conquest, as mentioned, my goal was to play a power builder game and I think I succeeded.

Arrian · October 17, 2002, 17:00

Now THAT's a really cool screenshot sequence! Wow!

I'd love to see you do the full-blown thread on that game. Huge/16 civs... it had to have been epic.

The French are good for "powerbuilder." Once they get rolling, man, watch out. Well-timed UU, too.

-Arrian

Dominae · October 17, 2002, 17:03

Nice little graphic Sir Ralph. Care to share on how you do that (or is it really simple and I should think about it myself for two seconds)?

Dominae

Harovan · October 17, 2002, 17:07

Arrian,

will make the thread as soon as I get time.

Dominae,

in a nutshell: I took map shots in the F3 window (they are larger) every 20 turns, converted them to GIF format, added the text with Paint Shop Pro (I have an old 5.0 license) and composed the sequence with the Animation Workshop of Paint Shop Pro.

Theseus · October 17, 2002, 18:30

Cool graphic.

Anyway, great start or not, you nailed it outta the park, and I expect you'll do fine in general on Emperor. Every once in a while you get into a difficult spot, but as Catt said in the AU 107 thread, it's good to have some tough games too.

Dominae · October 17, 2002, 19:53

Thanks for the info Sir Ralph.

Dominae

Arrian · October 18, 2002, 00:12

Victory is mine. As usual, an inadvertant Domination win. Score 7395.

The English ended up landing some cavalry on my coast and got all upset when I asked them to leave. Accordingly, three turns later, 4 3xTank+1mech inf armies, a 3xknight+1Tank army and some tanks landed in England. I built one city to grab spices, and razed everything else. I was a tad annoyed with them, so I brought artillery and bombers along and was happily blowing up every terrain improvement ( after the cities were gone - kinda like sowing salt in the soil, eh?) except for one rail line for my units. Alas, Elizabeth survived until my victory, 2 turns before tanks would have landed on her last island outpost. How did this happen, you may ask? Simple: Abe Lincoln sent a longbowman to attack me. I was forced to take his last city, which I razed, but my borders expanded and *presto* the game was over. Vaguely annoying in that I was a couple of turns from completing Apollo.

I suppose I should thank Abe, though, considering that now I'll get to bed at something approximating a reasonable hour (12:15).

-Arrian

Arrian · October 18, 2002, 00:16

By the way, I am pleased that the AI no longer appears to do the communist self-destruct thing, or the drafting self-destruct thing. Not that it would have mattered, but I encountered 2 conscript rilfemen all game long. And I fought a fair number of rifles (the AI never did get replaceable parts).

-Arrian

Arrian · October 18, 2002, 09:32

Oh, I almost forgot... it finally happened. I lost a Tank to a spearman! The Tank had 3hp, and attacked (2nd attack, trying to get him elite) a regular spearman fortified in a size 6 town (Richmond, if memory serves), and lost. I sat back, laughed, and ordered in the next tank.

Other combat oddities in this game:

I had an elite war chariot fight off an attack by a regular Mounted Warrior. He was on a forest, but still, I had to be pleased with my little pixels. I had several other lucky rolls involving MWs, which really did help me.

I twice sank ironclads with privateers (I had a fleet of 'em, and sank the bulk of the English navy with them, before and during the war). It took 2x privateers for each ironclad, but again, I was happy with my little scurvy dogs.

I'm sure those playing AU107 noticed this stuff too. Normally, when the human player has a good game going, he/she won't see this type of stuff much, because we humans tend to upgrade our units and if we're doing well, our units are top of the line. I gather in AU107, people were throwing Legionaries at pikemen and musketmen, and fighting off Cavalry with those same legionaries later on.

-Arrian

DeepO · October 18, 2002, 11:13

Nice game, Arrian!

I must say, I'm currently in my ultimate power game on Emperor. Huge, 16 civs, playing as the Japanese. The strange thing is that normally I'm more of a builder, but this time I was going for a military victory... the plans have changed, however, the initial military goal will most likely be replaced by a cultural, or space race win.

Very weird game, though, I never had this many leaders in a game. After the first few, I started naming my units 'Tojo 2' etc, and I'm currently to 'Hirohito 5'. And, never before have I lost this many armies too... I lost about 15 of them, and have currently only 4 running around (two of them empty). Saving armies to get to mixed ones doesn't seem to work for me: I had terrible luck with my 2 unit armies. Losing 2 elite samurai to a spearman, for instance, is something that has happened multiple times

Oh well, If I need another one, I'll pick a fight, I'm sure more leaders will emerge with all the elites I've got running around. And as I'm some 6 techs in front, I can build all wonders without leaders, only used one on the FP and on Magellan's voyage so far. Of the ancient wonders, I only built the collosus, GL and hanging gardens myself (after the ancient wonders all of them were mine), so it isn't an ultimate power game by definition, but it comes very close. And, now the only wonders that remain in other civ's cities are the oracle and the lighthouse, both of which don't have an effect anymore.

I just hit industrial age, and could win by domination easily (haven't seen over half of the map, though, just a guess), but my score is so high (5600 in 1000AD) already I want to continue this game to see where it will take me. But every time I'm holding off on a neighbour because I want to upgrade my units, they declare war on me. I've fought too many wars with archers and horsemen, but was forced... so decided to punish the civ now, instead of waiting for more enjoyable units to com around. It has been very strange: I didn't have a very good start (one wheat, no river in the capital), didn't focus on culture (but atm I'm 4 times as powerful as the next in line and stil growing), didn't have at any moment a large army, and still... the way this game plays out I can do whatever I want and still seem to win. Very strange... but I like it

DeepO

DeepO · October 20, 2002, 19:47

Well... I just finished my Ultimate Power game... very strange game indeed. Without milking it (on the contrary), I achieved a score of over 11000 in 1600 AD, with a cultural win... If I wanted to milk this game from the point of posting previous post, I'm quite sure this was going to be a 20,000 point game. But I'm too lazy for that

The trend continued: without any decent army, I got attacked again and again, and just had to learn those b*stards a lesson. So, when I was eridacting the Iroquois, the Greek backstabbed me, taking 2 cities before my troops could reach them. I find a better use for their territory, use the upgraded Sams left over from them to finish the Americans, and am waiting to get to tanks. some 10 turns before reaching it, I see a lot of Aztec troops in my territory, I ask them kindly to leave, and they declare war.

This Aztec war was a bit of a problem: they had discovered Nationalism (I went straight for tanks), didn't had access to saltpeter, but had loads of cash (some 2000 gold). So I used masses of infs on them, loosing them in a 3 to 1 ratio, gaining loads of leaders, loosing loads of armies. By the time I finally got my tanks, my whole empire was suffering bad from WW (lux at 30%). This was not my intention: I wanted to sign a peace treaty with them, but somehow they refused to give me nationalism. So I annexed the last part of my continent with 2 turn old tanks, and decided to sit the last turns out. I got nationalism from the French (biggest AI on a separate continent) when I just hit the modern age, by exchanging it for Steam power. So I was a full age in front...

I could have avoided a cultural win by selling my research buildings, or at least postpone it a little, but I knew this was going to be my highest score on Emperor, and didn't want to set the mark too high. So Hirohito 7 (or 8?) built the UN, and I finished in 1600 with some 101,000 in culture. Over 11,000 points, a production of nearly 9000, but research still at 63%, and happiness only 80 or so. A very strange game indeed, I had tons of bad luck with my armies, and after I decided this wasn't going to be the military game I set out to play, I was forced time after time to defend myself.

I definately think that the initial archer rush was what made this game so good, but I'm still puzzled why exactly it became so huge... I must admit I don't play with the Japanese much (only my second finished game), so is it time to admit that being a crule dude is more my style of play? I always thought myself a builder, not a conqueror, but somehow this has worked better this time. A whole lot better.

If someone's interested, I'll post a more detailed walk through and the save of last turn.

DeepO

laissez-faire · October 21, 2002, 04:09

Damn you guys.

Everytime I find myself crawling into bed at 3am on a Tuesday I tell myself, "NO MORE CIVILIZATION!" It seems like I've been commanding those words ever since high school when I played Civ I on a monochrome monitor. Then, just when I think I have the habit licked, I come to work and read a thread like this one. Now I'm itching to get home early.

Arrian · October 21, 2002, 10:02

I know what you mean.

DeepO,

WOW! Great game. All that with a so-so start spot. Impressive indeed. By the way, I don't really go for the 2-unit army thing either, because unlike Theseus I don't think that mixed unit armies are all that great. They can be nice, but often I'd rather get full advantage out of an army *right now* Especially with a unit like Samurai (4/4/2). After all, what would you add to a 2-unit Sam army? The next unit I'd add would be a Tank. Plus, if you have 3+ armies in the field, you can build the Pentagon, allowing a 4th unit. So you can feel free to have full 3-unit armies, knowing that eventually you will be able to add a 4th.

Anyway, speaking of Ultimate Power, on the wonder side of things you had it. Everything but the Oracle and G. Lighthouse? That's good enough. The one place you probably didn't have it is in control of luxuries, but that's really hard to do on a huge map. Good job. Ain't leaders fun?

-Arrian

DeepO · October 21, 2002, 11:56

I have to correct myself what the start spot is concerned: I had access to a game as well (on forest). But still, it wasn't a great starting place... although micromanaging my citizens between the wheat and the forested game did mean my first settler was build relatively fast. Maybe this start was also the incentive to archer rush 3 civs, instead of the normal 2 (although my archers were helped at the end of the first Zulu war by some new horsies), so I don't consider it that bad... and my 3rd and 4th cities were quite good: one with 4 wines in the first 9 tiles (all on grassland), the other with 3 cows. Decent, but nothing extraordinary.

I didn't build the pyramids myself, Arrian, but I conquered Zimbabwe in the same turn they build it... at which time I already had lost a two-archer army. So, if I had choosen to do it, I could have spend the leader there. My first army went down before winning a battle, so I couldn't build the HE right away neither

Those mixed armies sure are difficult to manage, I wanted to try it to see why Theseus is so fond of them (I understand it in theory, but in practice...), but it simply doesn't work for me. I think I will build 3 unit armies next time, and try to supplement those with modern units when they're available. 2-unit armies is simply not my style, you've got to be too careful not to loose them. I think I lost about 25 armies at various points in this game, which didn't matter... I knew I was going to win big time. In other games, losing 1 army can mean a disaster.

And the luxuries: I had the monopoly on 5 of them, while England (isolated on their rocky island) had all the gems (13 of them, IIRC), the other 2 were divided over two other continents where the French, Germans, and Russians lived. It was quite possible to gain them, I had transports waiting on each channel to those islands, and certainly the English were poorly defended: their best defense were mustketmen, against my tanks. Germany wasn't in a much better shape, but they were MPPed with France (which was, in numbers, the biggest military power). I could have gone for it, and if the cultural victory wasn't so close I would have taken England fast, but now it was much easier to trade a few of my outdated techs to them, gaining money and luxs. In an official UP game, I would have chosen to take them, and leave them in the middle ages, but then cultural needed to be off.

I'm thinking of starting a new game, with about the same setup (so huge, 16 civs, Japan) to try to go for a monster score. I just checked CivFanatics, and the maximum on Emperor (22,000) is certainly within reach, as long as domination and cultural are off. Just launching a space craft in 2050 in the last game was more then enough to get that, and if I would have waged a few more wars, and gained a bit more territory, 30,000 is certainly possible. But then again, such huge scores are of course nice, but I will never be able to beat deity like Aeson did, and I doubt that I have the patience to do it. Besides, if I start a game with this goal, I'm quite sure I won't end up nearly as good as this last one

DeepO