Expectations for Monarch level? - Page 2

vmxa1 · October 18, 2002, 13:33

PF, the whole deal is as you go up in levels you must rely on your ability to get more out of your empire than the AI. You will start out in a bigger and bigger hole as you get to Deity. If you do not get top production, you will be dead. Your other means of getting in the lead is to either fight or trade. The map you have, does not allow for trading much, no lux, no tech. You need more land to have more cities for research and trade. By the way, I would have next looked hard at the posibility of trade for saltpetter. First does anyone want it badly and can I afford to give it to them. The game is really not going to be a problem to at least survive and likely win. I had not check the advisor, but I am sure the AI is not going to be willing to attack you anytime soon. If they do, it would be their mistake. I would go for a few cannons and make them suffer. You can not land that many units with galleys. Only India has a city on your land. I would not be surprised to see it flipdown the line a bit, now that culture improvements are in place.

planetfall · October 18, 2002, 15:00

vmxa1--

I didn't realize my land mass was so poor. But you are right all it had was some silks.

One question left: how get AI to give techs on peace negotations.

-- PF

jshelr · October 18, 2002, 15:05

I was crusing by when you posted the last question. In answer I would recall childhood fights on the playground. You hold the guy down and hit him in the face. Give up, you ask? If he says no, hit him again and ask again, give? When you've hit him enough, he says give. Then, you get what you want. Very civilized, don't you think?

planetfall · October 18, 2002, 15:10

Jshelr,

Thanks. "Civilization" is a misnomer more and more as you try harder difficulty levels.

-- PF

vmxa1 · October 18, 2002, 15:35

Quote:

Originally posted by planetfall
One question left: how get AI to give techs on peace negotations.

-- PF

You asked the wrong person, as I have never had the sucess that others seem to have. They do not give me a bunch of techs and gold. I feel good to get 1 or 2 techs and maybe a small amount of cash. If you are going well, they won't have many techs you don't have and the AI is usualy close to the edge on money in my games. The only time that is not so, is on Deity and before I get moving, at that time, I am not able to beat them out of anything. Once I can, it maybe too late to get much. It is sort of like the post about the school yard fight. If I check what they want for peace,I get the least they will give. If I put units on a tile next to a city and say the bit about the threats, they will give more. They can only give what they have. To me, at monarch, I may have a quick killing of a civ that is close and maybe a few small wars later, but not much until I am getting some parity. Then I go for the take over the world. I have eased back on my warmonger, just a tad.

Arrian · October 18, 2002, 17:47

You have to really beat the crap out of them to get tech. I normally do this in the ancient age.

Example: Emperor, as Egypt -

War #1 - I attack an American settler team (settler/warrior) and capture 2 workers. American counterattack vs. my #2 city fails (barely) and I make peace in exchange for 4 techs and gold.

War #2 - I attack America with swordsmen, capturing 2 cities, including Washington and razing 3 others. I once again receive all tech and gold for peace.

War #3 - I attack the Aztecs with swordsmen, capturing Tenochticlan and razing 2 other cities. I receive all tech/gold for peace.

War #4 - I attack the Germans with war chariots and swords, capturing or razing all but 1 city. Same pattern.

War #5 - A slugfest with the Iroquois, the first of three. I capture two cities and inflict heavy casualties, but halt there. Peace got me a little gold, but as I now had the tech lead, dunno about tech. All future wars were fought with a tech lead.

[note: the razing mentioned was autorazing, not by choice]

So like I said, you really gotta go for the jugular to get them to cough up tech (the 1st American war really surprised me, though. Perhaps hitting that settler team was the key). If they fear you, you get what you want.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · October 18, 2002, 18:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
You have to really beat the crap out of them to get tech. I normally do this in the ancient age.

Example: Emperor, as Egypt -

War #1 - I attack an American settler team (settler/warrior) and capture 2 workers. American counterattack vs. my #2 city fails (barely) and I make peace in exchange for 4 techs and gold.

-Arrian

Wow, how did you get 4 techs that they did not have on emp? Huts? Was USA isolated?
Anyway, I have beat them like a stepchild, but sometime they will not even make peace when down to their last cities. So to me, 2 things are needed. 1- they have to have something to give you 2- you have to whack them hard and be sitting on their door for the next city.

Theseus · October 18, 2002, 18:33

jshelr: "I was crusing by when you posted the last question. In answer I would recall childhood fights on the playground. You hold the guy down and hit him in the face. Give up, you ask? If he says no, hit him again and ask again, give? When you've hit him enough, he says give. Then, you get what you want. Very civilized, don't you think?"

PF: "Thanks. "Civilization" is a misnomer more and more as you try harder difficulty levels."

More converts. MWUAHAHAHA!!

Arrian · October 20, 2002, 00:04

vmxa1,

No, no, no. I got 4 techs from THEM.

I was behind in tech until I crushed Germany. Golden Age -> Great Library. From that point on, I led.

-Arrian

vmxa1 · October 20, 2002, 02:25

Sorry , I miss read the perspective.

jshelr · October 21, 2002, 07:37

One More Monarch Strat

Don't forget the late-game science route.

Last week playing England I started on a modest island with Persia. The good news was there was no iron. The bad news was that, after Persia was eliminated, there was still no iron. There were also no horses, salt peter, aluminum, oil, or coal. I got uranium!!

Needless to say, there was a huge gold outflow to pay for needed stuff all game long. And the small land mass kept me down the food chain. How to win?

Well, on Monarch the combination of rapid population growth in indvidual cities yielded by graneries and an early sanitation discovery, a well-built economy, and and early research of computers in the modern era to give you research labs and seti, will give you an edge in the modern era over the AI research pace. In this game, Cathy stole tech on me and almost beat me in the end. But I was crusing away from the pack doing "honest" research on my own.

Try this strat as a small civ on Emperor and the AI will often laugh at you!! It's a complete joke by Deity. However, even after the SS launch in this game I was still only third on the score table.

planetfall · October 21, 2002, 10:26

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Just to seee what the differences were, if any, I have some stats from the 8xxAD sav you posted and the 850AD I have.

-------- 8xx------ 850
Pop---- 3523K--- 4465K
GNP---- 291----- 341
Goods- 122M tons 133M
Prod--- 399------ 448

vxma1,
Attached is third try of playing game. 860ad. I thought I had the stat summary but couldn't find quickly this am.

These are the differences I remember:

Your play
1. you reduced workers to 5|6.
2. you have 2 size 12 cities and 1 size 11, but the extra population is entertainers.
3. you have a slightly stronger military.

my third replay
1. continent is all mine
2. foothold on Indian continent

It was very interesting to see your save. Would be interesting to see one of your saves with "optimal city placement". I used to space them 5 tiles apart, now I mix 4-5 tiles apart.

-- PF

planetfall · October 21, 2002, 11:42

More Questions -- slipping & sliding on treadmill

Attached is 3rd game, year 1565, minimap.

Problems I am not able to solve:

1. China keeps getting further and further ahead in techs & military
2. Greece-Russia "war" vs China is ineffective
3. Production is average. Mostly in 33's, only one 55 shield.
4. Using luxuries for luxury trades nothing left for techs
5. Other than self-research, can't think of any way to get techs.
Military still too weak and last offer was 1500g/tech.
6. If could take care of China, how get Greece and Russia to duke it out?

Map key:
Greece__ Green, 32 cities. They took out France who was on same continent.
Russia__ Brown, 15 cities. Idaho continent.
Rome__ Rust, 6 cities.
India__ Purple, 3 cities
China__ Cyan, 18 cities, 3 natural luxuries, Hoover.
Germany__ Blue, 28 cities, few bonus tiles.

Game overview:
Russia used to have BS working on Chinese ironclads but no action recently. Never seen any Greek military. China keeps on bombarding coast lines.

Finally pulled my military up to "average", hah, hah. I have 2 DS and 34 infantry. China has:
85 infantry
15 fighters
10 bombers
8 BS
3 transports
5 marines

Guessed tech leads:
flight
communism
amphibious warfare
mass production
atomic theory
electronics

Finally decided to take out India. Only tech is communism. Only because they tend to give ROP and can't afford to allow staging of invasion force in India. Just declared war. Weird, India "remembers what you did to France..". I had no relations with France except to establish embassy.

Suggestions?

vmxa1 · October 21, 2002, 13:14

Quote:

Originally posted by planetfall
These are the differences I remember:

Your play
1. you reduced workers to 5|6.
2. you have 2 size 12 cities and 1 size 11, but the extra population is entertainers.
3. you have a slightly stronger military.

my third replay
1. continent is all mine
2. foothold on Indian continent

-- PF

PF, if you look at the tech situation, you see that I have Chiv/Invention/GunPowder/Theolgy and Education is 2 turns away. I have Calv already made and muskets. This is not slightly stronger, it is significant. The Indian last town can be taken anytime. Look at the output figures I posted, this is what is going to allow you to over run the AI. From this point forward you will be taking cities and be in the lead in tech to stay. Most cities are now over 6 and will be cranking out research/cash/units.whatever. Calv can take down the AI cities with only small loses, this means grabbng more, sooner. They are also faster. Muskets mean holding those cities against the junk that the AI will be able to send against them, once you grab them.

Arrian · October 21, 2002, 15:04

Damn, PF, your Greece is a monster. Beware a large Greece: large commercial civs, once they get rolling, are pretty powerful.

-Arrian

planetfall · October 21, 2002, 15:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Arrian
Damn, PF, your Greece is a monster. Beware a large Greece: large commercial civs, once they get rolling, are pretty powerful.

-Arrian

No kidding. I was hoping China-France-Russia would go after Greece as they had the highest score. Nope, picked second highest to focus on--China.

I am no longer playing to win, just trying to survive to be 2nd or 3rd. Getting a bit frustrated with this game. Going to finish just to see what tactics the AI uses to end the game so I can anticipate better next time. Don't see much value in starting again a fourth time but before 10bc. Next game I will try to remember to not build so much early and watch out for Greece & China. I thought France would be a good match for Greece with both being commercial. Didn't happen, I don't know what Joan's problem was. Guess she couldn't find the starter button.

-- PF

vmxa1 · October 21, 2002, 15:44

Hi PF, I loaded it up and continued to 1255 so far. I grab the city on your island and Calcutta & Madras on their land. They offered peace and I asked for a tech and settled. I have learned a few more techs and I am 3 techs back, but soem of them I never research till very late or trade for like Democracy and Free Artist. Made a calv army and started Epic and Mil Academy. I found out that the calv or modded any other things going to fall out on me?

Techs are coming faster now, so catching up will come. Will come back to the game later to see where I am in 15xx.

planetfall · October 21, 2002, 15:55

vmxa1,

Thanks. That's about where I was, 2 techs back and about 2 I never research. {Demo, free artist, printing press, adv flight, amphibious warfare, music theory}.

It was especially surprising to suddenly see I was 4-5 techs behind and I didn't have anything to trade.

BTW-- at one point something weird happened, a ton of techs were researched in one turn. I think game got confused with free Mil Tradition. I have unselected that option as it messed up the game.

If you want a save of some inbetween year, let me know. I don't save all turns, but do about every 5 turns until I finish a game. Got burned once where computer died and without autosave on, lost 4 hrs of game time.

-- PF

vmxa1 · October 21, 2002, 20:34

I stopped at 1390 for now to do some other things. It will be very rough. I have Espionage and went to plant a spy on Greece as they have been at war with me since around 1275 or so. Anyway I found embassies have not been made with all. I did that and got a spy, it was depressing. Greeks have 93 Infantry, 25 calv. I have killed about 15 and sunk al of their galley/caravels and 1 ironclad so far. I have all previous age techs and Steam Power, Nationalism and Industrialization is soon. RR are going up now. Next will get Replacement Parts to get worker boost and Inf. The problem is the wonders are out of reach and the AI's have them all. The fall behind is due to a sci civ getting 2 techs in the next age and peddling them every where. I could have avoided the fight with Greece, but I want to kick them in the shin a bit, by killing units as they send them, no assault from me is possible. Soon as upgrade to Inf I wil get out of the war and go after the rest of India, need the land. The factories and RR will really boost the production.

vmxa1 · October 22, 2002, 00:13

PFf, I ran out to 1570AD, researched Elec/Ind/National/Steam/Medicine/Sanitation/Replacement/Comm/Sci Method and some thing else, but man they are hard to catch. Greece is at war with China,Russia and India. India is at war with all. I missed out on two cities as the Chinese snuck in and got them from me. They have MI and Tanks, Carriers and battleships

, nasty busines. I thought I could get back in by production and that may be an outside shot, but I would have been better off to go into all out troop production. The main cities now have hospitals and factories and are now cranking good. Lots of cash and all units upgraded. The best shot right now is for India to make peace with China and then I can get the rest of their cities. RR's are up on both land mass in German cities. A steady flow of INf are coming over, not my favorite unit to attack with, but no choice.
What I was trying to show you is that the only way to be a force is with a great industry. That leads to a strong military. The land you started with was not very good, but the hole you were in was too big. I forget what level this was at, but at regent/monarch you need to get some wonders and be close to the leaders in tech by late middle ages. On manarch and lower, they should not beat you to ToE and later wonders. If you are not close at that stage, then either the start was horendous or you are doing something wrong.
What I wanted you to compare was what the cities were doing and the tech learned. Most games at these levels the BC years need to be managed carefully. If you fail to get the number of cities and the infrastructure early, it can get out of hand.

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 10:32

mudder, fudder, it's stopped raining, kids are playing. Kindly disregard this leddar.

There's light at the end of the Industrial Age.

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
PFf, I ran out to 1570AD, researched Elec/Ind/National/Steam/Medicine/Sanitation/Replacement/Comm/Sci Method and some thing else, but man they are hard to catch.

I ran out to about 1625. I don't have comm. yet, but do have flight. That finally put an end to the annoying Chinese bomber missions. Combined with continual Russian harrassment, China has finally been forced out of republic.

Quote:

Greece is at war with China,Russia and India.

Interesting, Greece at war with Russia. What I did as soon as Russia and Greece made a MPP was to make one with both. It had been ages since I checked so I just checked and they let their MPP expire. It keep them from attacking me when I was "weak military". Soon I will stop my MPP and let them go at it, but not quite yet. Waiting for my GA.

Quote:

India is at war with all.

In my 3rd replay, India is gone.

Quote:

I missed out on two cities as the Chinese snuck in and got them from me.

They tried that on my also, but a stack of catpaults knocked them to red and riflemen finished the job. I was lucky. China had 2BS and 1 trans 1 tile from landing. Put 2 units on shore, used my 2 art's to weaken them. Just so happens 2 Russian BS and 1 carrier where just coming around the bend when China made its move. Big mistake. Russia jumped the BS and a weak transport ran for shelter. Whew, talk about luck.

Quote:

They have MI and Tanks, Carriers and battleships

, nasty busines. I thought I could get back in by production and that may be an outside shot, but I would have been better off to go into all out troop production.

Definitely a confused game. But with your help I am learning. Can't run the early game on autopilot yet at this level. Need to expand faster. They already have MI and carriers. Interesting. In my game, no MI. Just to have 5 tanks, but now down to 2. I don't see any Russian brown spots on the pink continent yet, so must have used them for defense.

Quote:

The main cities now have hospitals and factories and are now cranking good.

I have a bunch of factories also. Production is not yet as high as I like. Only hospitals in cities that can benefit from them. Many cities are too tightly packed to benefit from hospital or are on coast and adding more pop only working sea won't help much.

Quote:

Lots of cash and all units upgraded.

How the h. did you do that? I can't afford to upgrade units. I finally got rid of my archers and warriors. My cash is about 1500g. 1000 for 50gpt interest and 500 reserves for urgent trade/upgrade needs. Going to spend some of that 500 next turn to rush either a 40T harbor or 80T airport. Depending on my cost figures.

Quote:

The best shot right now is for India to make peace with China and then I can get the rest of their cities. RR's are up on both land mass in German cities. A steady flow of INf are coming over, not my favorite unit to attack with, but no choice.

Agreed I hate fighting with infantry, but no offense. Not going to waste cavs. You get way way too far behind if wait for panzers. Need to do something with infantry. I have 3 full infantry armies. 2 are on Roman continent. It is kind of fun to watch Roman infantry attack my invading infantry. Since their closest land is mountains, I only lost one infantry to their 5.

Quote:

What I was trying to show you is that the only way to be a force is with a great industry. That leads to a strong military. The land you started with was not very good, but the hole you were in was too big. I forget what level this was at, but at regent/monarch you need to get some wonders and be close to the leaders in tech by late middle ages. On manarch and lower, they should not beat you to ToE and later wonders. If you are not close at that stage, then either the start was horendous or you are doing something wrong.

Monarch. Great-- a milestone. I missed ToE, etc. I think I was too passive pre 10bc.

Quote:

What I wanted you to compare was what the cities were doing and the tech learned. Most games at these levels the BC years need to be managed carefully. If you fail to get the number of cities and the infrastructure early, it can get out of hand.

So I am finding out. I really, really appreciate your wisdom and hints. Post a later save so I can see how your adjusted your cities and military.

-- PF

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 11:05

Quote:

Originally posted by vmxa1
Just to seee what the differences were, if any, I have some stats from the 8xxAD sav you posted and the 850AD I have.

-------- 8xx------ 850
Pop---- 3523K--- 4465K
GNP---- 291----- 341
Goods- 122M tons 133M
Prod--- 399------ 448

Don't have tech list, but here are the numbers from my 3rd and current play of this game. I did learn from your advice:

Game: c860 {c=3rd play of game, 860=year}
pop 486.2 K
Mfg 164
GNP 359
Prod 494
Land 36.2
score 783

Cities
10 pop == 1
7 pop == 1
6 pop ==13

-- PF

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 11:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Mattaba
And could you post a SAV?

Did you get any play time? Any wisdom to share?

-- PF

vmxa1 · October 22, 2002, 13:03

I fired up a Moo2 on impossible game last night, so I did not get back. The game was reminding me of some of my deity games as every time I turned around they were cranking out a wonder. China and Russia have been polite the whole time because of the lux trades. Greece could not afford to attack, since they got hurt doing it earlier and now have a bunch of new foes. Give us an update on your progress

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 13:30

vmxa1--
Busy night ahead, but at least plan to take care of Rome. The idiots decided to join China and declare war on me. One bomber mission was all I needed. Their western point city was keeping me from reaching fish bonus tile, they wouldn't sell me gems, they only had 18 inf, they had no MPP and China was already at war with me, and they only had one iron in the point city. Come on, you can only dangle the candy so often before it is gone. Worse case: I will have to wait for panzers, but I think my 3 full inf armies and a couple cavs can handle them well. China is too far away to help.

-- PF

Mattaba · October 22, 2002, 14:34

Quote:

Originally posted by planetfall

Did you get any play time? Any wisdom to share?

-- PF

Sorry man forgot about this

, but I'll have a look at them and see what I can do.

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 14:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Mattaba

Sorry man forgot about this

, but I'll have a look at them and see what I can do.

No problem, you don't have to play it unless you are in the mood. But if going to play start with 10bc sav. You are way too far behind in later savs.

-- PF

Mattaba · October 22, 2002, 14:47

I'll start from your c860 sav.

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 15:14

that's an even better idea.

planetfall · October 22, 2002, 15:30

Opps, hit enter too soon.

It will be interesting to see how you play Greece and Russia. vmxa1 decided to take on Greece now and has Greece and Russia at war. I decided to ignore Greece and Russia until Rome and China go.

What will you decide to do and how does it work?

We will be interesting in hearing your experiences. Maybe you have the best strategy.

-- PF