It is done...Dutch right wing governement collapses

[Saint Marcus]

Don't get me wrong, I like the SP a lot. the only reason why I'm voting for Groenlinks is cause they have a shot at getting the governement, the SP never will (unless they change course).

[germanos]

Originally posted by Hueij
editted by Germanos in Italics

Okay then, here goes, from left to right:

SP, Socialistische Partij (Socialist Party). Relatively new party with some good old socialist ideas.
Socialists in the traditional sence

GL, Groen Links (Green Left). An '80's fusion of the Communist Party, the Pacifist Socialist Party and the Radical Party (which was a split of of the now ceased Catholic Peoples Party). They grew tremendously the last 12 years and now they are considered government-"faehig". To get there they took a huge turn to the center.
very similar to the German Green Party. Socialists ideals mixed with emphasis on environmental issues

PvdA, Partij van de Arbeid (Workers Party) Labor Party. Originally what the name says, now a just-slightly center-left party. Very similar to the Britsh Labor Party and German Social Democrats. In fact, both Blair and Schroeder acknoledge that their respective parties made the switch to 'New Labor' was heavily inspired by the PvdA transition and the concequetive piviting role the PvdA had in Dutch politics for the last 12 years
In the focus of political power for eight years but were pretty beaten up last elections. Still struggling. I was a member a long time ago but left when they gave up too much in return for a government position.

D66, Democraten 66 (Democrats 66). Founded in the roaring '60s, center left liberals, almost dead now.

CDA, Christen Democratisch Appel (Christian Democratic somethingAppeal). Center right, formed out of the three old Catholic and Protestant parties. In government since the Exile from Eden but in decline since the '70's and not in the government for the last 8 years. But somehow they were the big winners of the last elections . Will certainly be the big shot in any new government.

VVD, Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie (Peoples [yeah, right] Party for Freedom and Democracy). Calls itself liberal but are conservative when economics are concerned. I don't agree: Liberal economics. They pursue abondonment of all State-owned companies as: National Gas, National Railways etc. Social securitry in Private Hands etc. Minimal State influence in practically everything. No budget deficits allowed to counter economic resession.

CU, Christen Unie (Christian Union). Fusion of two small Christian parties. For fundies they are kind of liberal but only just. only very, very just

SGP, Staatkundig Gereformeerde Partij ( costitutional (?) Reformation Party). Christian fundies. No women members allowed!! Very small.
the votes of the women are allowed though . Their husbands do the voting for them. Most important issue: it is God that is our King and Ruler. Unfortunately there needs to be rule on Earth too. Hence they feel they are allowed to participate in politics (although reluctantly), hence the 'Staatkundig/constitutional' in the Title. Their politicians refuse to give interviews on TV. It's an instrument of the devil. For some strange reason Radio is OK.
[EDIT] I wasn't sure, but thanks to St. Markus who pointed out their website: This is a Calvinistic Party. Reformist then not in the Lutherian sence, but in the Calvinistic sence: DOOM DOOM DOOM. Fundamentalistic in the true sence: All nonbeleivers are doomed, and selfdetermination is out of the question. All should bow to God and Christ. The Book sais it all. ("god made us all to be just like him. So if we are dumb, then God is dumb." Frank Zappa[/EDIT]

Hueij left out one Party that might be the surprise of the next election:
LN : Leefbaar Nederland (Livable (lifable? Live-able??) Nederland: now rather obscure new party that has firm roots in municipal/local politics. Various 'Leefbaar' Parties have had some influence (that means governing) in local politics over the years. This years elections they sort of united to bring their plea (basically: power closer to the people) to the national party. In the local elections (held shortly before the general elections) they also sort of united by adopting the 'Leefbaar' name, while before that they would have all kind of names giving expression to their bond with the local politics.
They looked to make a good showing in the general elections, until they decided to make Pim Fortuyn their leader. This scheme soon fell apart, and Pim Fotuyn, dismissed from LN, founded his now infamous LPF.
(a small note on Pim Fortuyn: he had the reputation that said: where Pim enters, a fight breaks out. How profetic)
With the scandal on Fortuyn leaving the LN, he took most voters with him. Many voters might well return if the LN gets its act together.

A bunch of wacko right-wing fascist and neo-nazi parties, slowly dying out.
when was the last time they got a seat in parlement? two terms ago IIRC.

NB: in the Netherlands it is enough to get 1/150% of the votes to get elected.

----------

Dunno if it's left or right, but we also have the LPF, Lijst Pim Fortuyn (List Pim Fortuyn). Founded by the gay baldhead with the same name that had wacky ideas and was murdered. His heirs totally ****ed up and are now the laughing stock of Dutch politics. We won't be hearing from them from now on.

the LPF was definitely conservative. Pim Fortuyn was harder to pinpoint, especially since he was as slippery as an ale ('zo glad als een paling in een emmer met snot'), and would feel very comfortable in changing his views drastically (a 180 degree turn was his favorite) if met with strong, and well-founded opposition

Hope this helps...

I hope this helps as well.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Don't get me wrong, I like the SP a lot. the only reason why I'm voting for Groenlinks is cause they have a shot at getting the governement, the SP never will (unless they change course).

The SP is likely to beat Groen Links at the next election.
(16 seats... )

[Saint Marcus]

The SP is likely to beat Groen Links at the next election.

still won't get them in the governement, not even in a left wing coalition.

[Saint Marcus]

cybershy: you still didn't explain why the greens are liars...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
cybershy: you still didn't explain why the greens are liars...

Hij houdt niet van hen enkel.

Edit: Crappy Translators.

[Saint Marcus]

some points from the program of the SGP, from their website:

no more gay marriage
no more adoption for gay couples
prostitution made illegal
people visiting hookers should be prosecuted
pornography made illegal
abortion forbidden
test on the option of abortion forbidden
euthanasia made illegal
IVF made illegal
cloning forbidden
softdrugs made illegal
closing of all "coffeeshops"
closing of all casinos
gambling made illegal
Palestinian people a direct threat to the Israeli state
shops closed on sundays

[Saint Marcus]

Hij houdt niet van hen enkel.

Ja, dat geloof ik best. Maar zijn het daarom leugenaars?

or is Cybershy banned after his recent threads in the Community forum?

[germanos]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
still won't get them in the governement, not even in a left wing coalition.

If you are so insistant of voting for a party that will join the government, your choice should vote CDA. 95 % succes guaranteed.

It is just soch a stupid reason to cast your vote. Nobody thought fortuyn would make it, yet he, ot better said his memory, did it.

Rosenmuller has overstayed his time in politics: his last chance was 4 years ago, and he failed to cash in on his popularity. Things have been going downhill ever since. It is time he calles his quites. Groen Links has losts its momentum, and only a new and fresh political leader will be able to turn the tide. Rosenmuller's tactics are looking archaic by now.

Groen Links will loose it's chance of having influence in any Government if they stick to Rosenmuller. It is either Groen Links with a strong 'Green' Program that will change the course this country will take, or an D'66 style excuse party to get a parliament mayority to a PvdA-CDA government.

My prediction: Groen Links will loose a third of its votes in the next election. Rosenmullers hollow rethoric will kill the movement. I am truly sorry for it. Environmentalism deserved better.

[Saint Marcus]

If you are so insistant of voting for a party that will join the government, your choice should vote CDA. 95 % succes guaranteed.

I do have some principles, mind you

Things have been going downhill ever since.

if you made that claim about D66, I could understand. but GL is doing quite well, and is up in the polls.

Groen Links will loose a third of its votes in the next election

good one!!

[Hueij]

Any reason why we even want to see Groen Links being part of the government? If they do that they won't survive the elections after that.

some points from the program of the SGP, from their website:

no more gay marriage
no more adoption for gay couples
prostitution made illegal
people visiting hookers should be prosecuted
pornography made illegal
abortion forbidden
test on the option of abortion forbidden
euthanasia made illegal
IVF made illegal
cloning forbidden
softdrugs made illegal
closing of all "coffeeshops"
closing of all casinos
gambling made illegal
Palestinian people a direct threat to the Israeli state
shops closed on sundays

My party!!

[germanos]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
some points from the program of the SGP, from their website:

Beleive me: these are only the 'moderate' views of the SGP

They have a website

[Saint Marcus]

Any reason why we even want to see Groen Links being part of the government? If they do that they won't survive the elections after that.

just look at germany. after a term in office, they even gained votes.

[Saint Marcus]

Beleive me: these are only the 'moderate' views of the SGP

They have a website

I know. Women aren't allowed in the party, and watching TV is evil. For some reason, the internet isn't.

[germanos]

no more gay marriage

For all you foreigners out there:

There is no such thing as a 'gay marriage' in the Netherlands.

They just marry like any of us might choose. Nothing Gay about that .

[Saint Marcus]

touch‚

[Ribannah]

I demand that the non-voters get seats in the parliament. Then they finally have the influence they have been looking for and we won't need any more LPF's!

[Maniac]

Or just change to stemplicht (Eng.?) as in Belgium.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
some points from the program of the SGP, from their website:

no more gay marriage
no more adoption for gay couples
prostitution made illegal
people visiting hookers should be prosecuted
pornography made illegal
abortion forbidden
test on the option of abortion forbidden
euthanasia made illegal
IVF made illegal
cloning forbidden
softdrugs made illegal
closing of all "coffeeshops"
closing of all casinos
gambling made illegal
Palestinian people a direct threat to the Israeli state
shops closed on sundays

SHOPS CLOSED ON SUNDAYS!?!?!?

Guess I won't go there to get married to my gay prostitute black jack dealer.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Maniac
Or just change to stemplicht (Eng.?) as in Belgium.

What good would that do? The only reason Vlaams Blok (extreme right, racist Flemish party) is doing so good over here is because there is a voting requirement. They're causing a lot of problems, as there is a 'Cordon Sanitaire' (translation? Health block literally, but that doesn't explain it fully) to keep the Vlaams Blok out of the government. Last elections, they became the biggest party of Belgium, which has lead to a 7-party coalition, in which liberals, greens and socialists are united. Very workable government

I hope they change the Belgian voting duty to a voting right soon... it would solve a lot of our political problems. Otherwise there is but one solution to the gaining racist party: take them in a government, and show the voters exactly how big a mess they will make of it... but don't be surprised if Belgium cancels his membership of the EU in that period, and starts to deport gays into concentration camps.

DeepO

[Maniac]

What good would that do?

It's more democratic. People who normally wouldn't vote because they have no faith in politics now are forced to vote. That way they get a voice and their problems must be solved to prevent extreme-right. Otherwise they can just be ignored for a long time.

And the duty to vote is far from the only reason Vlaams Blok is doing so well...

And except in Antwerp they are far from the biggest party in Belgium. I believe they are the third biggest in Flanders. A huge difference. Where did you get that information?? The reason why we have a 7-party coalition is 1) because there is for each ideology a similar party for Flanders and the Walloon Provinces and 2) because nobody wanted the Christian-democrats in the government. Vlaams Blok didn't have anything or very little to do with the government formation.

[DeepO]

Hmm... I have to correct myself, it seems that you are right, they are the 3rd party in Flanders in the election of 1999 (last governmental election) with 15% of the votes. They did better in last elections for the cities and provinces, but the www.fgov.be site doesn't have general figures on that.
However, Antwerp isn't the only city where Vlaams Blok has gotten biggest, Gent, Vilvoorde, Oostende and a few others have the same problem.

But I don't agree that a duty to vote will be democratic: many people voice their protest in voting for Vlaams Blok. There is no option to vote against voting, it is still against the law to vote blanco, and many people go to the ballotting boxes because they have to, not because they have an opinion on who should run the country. I don't call that democratic, I want the right to choose... (and yes, I would choose to vote).

Oh, besides, we have a 7 party coalition because the Christen democrats decided that they wanted to be an opposition party, and even if they were involved we would still need at least 6 parties to get to a majority. That is a 50% majority, not a 66% majority which is needed to change the constitution. If Vlaams Blok would be under consideration by the other parties, a 5 party coalition would be enough (you always need the PS, so also the SP, and either VLD or CD&V could complement with their Welsh counterparts)

And my personal prediction: Agalev and Ecolo (the two green parties for both languages) won't be part of the next government, at least not together with the liberals. Which means a government of liberals, socialists, and christen democrats together... it's been a while since these were all part of one government

DeepO

[Saint Marcus]

so the solution: stemplicht, with the option for a blank vote.

[DeepO]

Well.. next problem, where do the blanks go to? In the current Belgian system, they are given to the largest parties, instead of being ignored. Which has the countrary effect of what most blank voters want: they don't realize it, but they are supporting the government instead of voting against it.

This is different from votes to parties that don't reach the electoral treshold: these votes are simply ignored from the totals, and all parties are treated in the same ratio. Much better of course, so if you really want to voice protest, you need to vote on a party you're sure that won't get elected.

In my younger years, when I was weary of the political climate in Belgium, I did vote for WOW or Waardig Ouder Worden, a party for people above 65. No way they were going to win

DeepO

[germanos]

Oh Oh, a threadjack by Belgians.
Get your own Thread, or vote for a party that wants to join beautifull Holland. Especially get lost with the Vlaams Blok, let them rot in their own ridiculously small minds and towns.

On Topic:
Obligatory vote is not going to solve anything. When people decide their vote is useless, let them. Obliging them to vote is not going to change their feelings, nor does it give any credit to their vote.

In any case: who is going to determine the blank vote they found was yours?

As it is now, if you vote Blanco, nobody is going to notice, since those votes are omitted in the final result. If you decide NOT to vote, at least THAT decision is reflected in the results, since one of the major issues when looking at results of elections is the turn-out of voters.

And the LPF is the perfect example that protest voters always find their way. We have had several of those nut-parties, and all made a big mess. Luckily the real Nazi-weirdo's never get any significant vote, and the LPF was weird, but in no way anti-democratic or in any sense extreme-right.

[Hueij]

...or in any sense extreme-right.

Oh? I seem to recall a certain remark by Saint Pim about a certain "backward" religion. Fairly extreme in my book. And why do you think so many people voted LPF? Not because of the LPF's stance on the state of Dutch politics but because of Fortuyns stance on foreigners...

[Ribannah]

The blanks, like the non-voters, should earn seats.
The seats will stay empty.
That'll teach the politicians to care!

[DeathByTheSword]

i am relief that LPF is gone but now we will have very strong CDA with a VVD that i dont like......... dutch politics Sux

[DeepO]

Originally posted by germanos
Oh Oh, a threadjack by Belgians.

Not intended... but I can't help it that I'm interested in the opinion of Kezen on Dutch politics

As it is now, if you vote Blanco, nobody is going to notice, since those votes are omitted in the final result. If you decide NOT to vote, at least THAT decision is reflected in the results, since one of the major issues when looking at results of elections is the turn-out of voters.

exactly... that's why I want to change it here.

And the LPF is the perfect example that protest voters always find their way. We have had several of those nut-parties, and all made a big mess. Luckily the real Nazi-weirdo's never get any significant vote, and the LPF was weird, but in no way anti-democratic or in any sense extreme-right.

Well, the LPF might not be Vlaams Blok, but surely some of their ideas would be considered extreme right. Plus, it weren't the protest votes that made them so big, but more the sympathy vote... A lot of people I know that didn't care for the LPF nor for any other political party voted on it because of the murder of PF, knowing too well that they shouldn't expect a stable government from it. That's the strange part, nearly everyone agreed at the start of the government that this was not going to work, and still they did it. Sometimes your politics is even more wacko then ours

DeepO

[kolpo]

Originally posted by germanos
or vote for a party that wants to join beautifull Holland

Then we must vote for the Vlaams Blok? They are the only party that wants that Flanders joins the Netherlands(and Walon France).

Back on topic: I agree that forcing people to vote is more democratic, it are not only the anti-political people who don't vote but also poor/weak/very old people will in general vote less then rich/well educated people. Those poor/weak/very old have other thinsg to care about then going to vote, so unless you force them will that group be underrepresented(that's why a high number of people going to vote often helps the left).

So not only the wacko parties but also the very social parties will benefit, I think that SP will benefit too.